I'm not sure I should touch this thread!!  Let's just say I don't agree 100% with anyone so far.  There are so many factors involved in physical attraction, from evolutionary to neurochemistry to culture to media.  But the question was: why do women feel pressure to be ultra thin?  I'm surprised at the notion expressed here that the presence of thin women in the media is the fault of straight women.  huh?  It might be more likely that the market for a lot of things is geared towards a super young male demographic--like 13-year-old boys.  And in terms of super-skinny models in the fashion industry, I think it's simply because clothes tend to look great on them.  But they have no boobs and look gaunt/starved when uncovered (in my opinion).  Anything not skin tight on a real curvy woman tends to make them look heavier. 

In summing up how women who are larger than "average" feel, it is probably a lot like men who are smaller than average feel.  How does a skinny 5'2" guy feel about his body?  It's not like the media is full of those either.  But I'm not convinced it is supply and demand.  There are too many evolutionary things going on.

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 12:56:27 AM EST

Great.  Now I have to actually take a girl's perspective into account?  How dare you. 

When I mentioned this topic to my girlfriend, the first thing she said mirrored your points exactly (minus the example about small men at the end, which you're right on).

But thanks a lot.  Now I have to rethink my position (and I suspect I'm not alone in that).

by Spencer on 02/15/2008 01:11:57 AM EST

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I think fashion models tend to be overly skinny because the fashion designers don't want the women to be overly-sexed.  A really sexy woman with curves would take away from the focus being on the clothes they are trying to show off--people would be too busy looking at their breasts. 

I'm actually more irritated with Playboy.  They've really promoted the plastic surgery industry in the past decade or so.  Women who don't fall into the C-D range feel like there is something terribly wrong with their breasts and will either get implants or reductions to make them look "normal" and I guess "sexy" but that's probably secondary.   

by schmoab on 02/15/2008 01:26:41 AM EST

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I'm sorta with you there on the short guys...we're pretty much screwed (or more correctly not screwed...hardly ever!).  Then again we're lucky enough that girls can sometimes be attracted to personality, brains, or money. 

Ugly girls arn't so lucky.  It's not that guys are shallow it's just that a girl has to acheive a certain level of hotness before any of that other stuff counts for anything (that level depends upon the guy and how realistic his expectations are of course). 

by alphasigmookie on 02/15/2008 03:01:04 AM EST

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Men seem to be very visually oriented when it comes to attraction.  Women seem a little more that way when younger, but are much more likely to consider the whole package and things like intelligence become very important the older a woman gets.  Again, it's probably a result of our evolutionary past, when women may have been looking for more than just brawn when it comes to a good provider. 

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:03:20 PM EST

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Generally speaking, men have it easier if they're considered to be less attractive (we're speaking superficially here) because they are judged in other ways as well.

Then again (still speaking superficially here) money tends to be the man's version of being super hot, i.e. a rich man is like a hot woman.  Will either attract a quality, down to earth partner rather than just a physically attractive one?  That's another story and depends on what they want and what they offer in other less superficial ways (personality, intelligence, etc.).

Although I would point out that increasingly, the gap between physical expectations between men and women is closing.  I don't think it will EVER close (women will alawys have more pressure and held to higher physical standards overal), but it's true that more and more men are portrayed as having it all (great face, tight body, sensitive yet strong and tough, lots of money, great with kids, respectful, creative but not too wacky, etc).

It goes back to tv and movies, where characters with often contradictory traits fill romantic comedies and create SuperMan Alpha-Males that probably don't exist in real life.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 04:35:27 PM EST

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The practical considerations for models aside,  I still maintain that it is peer pressure from women that drives the obsession with weight.  The female models are not aimed at 13-year old males, they're aimed at other women.  Don't believe me?  Pick up a copy of Cosmopolitan and scan through it.  In college my sister, who lived near campus, used to keep a bunch of them in a stand by the sofa.  I'd go through them just to drool at the sexy pictures of good-looking women in skimpy clothes.  I was very suprised to find relatively few pictures of men it, but tons of pictures of women, many posed in very suggestive ways.

by bfaul on 02/15/2008 09:36:06 AM EST

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All this talk of skinny . Has anyone noticed that there is an obesity epidemic going on in this country? Americans are fat . In the Uk they always refer to Americans as fat ,its the running joke.  I think the latest statistics are over half of the population of this country are either obese or just over weight. Instead of focusing on homosexuals forcing women to be skinny. I find it much more interesting that an obese woman is suing McDonalds because she claims they made her Obese. The health care costs alone because of obesity in this country is insane.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 11:14:28 AM EST

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I totally agree, it is very interesting.  Then again, it's not necessarily all that surprising.

Considering how humans evolved (again, to be relatively active and store calories like crazy), what do you think would happen with an absurdly abundant food supply and jobs that often require minimal caloric expenditure?

Plus, especially here in the US, marketers have gone all out to the produce the most fattening, delicious and *convenient* foods known to man.  Restaurants (both fast and slow) continually raise the bar on gluttony by trying to outdo each other with huge portions for low, low prices.

Lots of salt, (hydrogenated and saturated) fat, refined carbs and sugars...most of these foods are designed to ultimately make you want to snack again in a few hours and they do an awful job of giving you *sustained* energy.  There's also a TON of corn in just about everything we eat, which has it's own set of problems.

Obviously there must be some level of personal responsibility.  You can't (or shouldn't) sue anyone for making you fat.  At the same time, it can't JUST be responsibility issues that make Americans so much fatter.  For example, IMO, we're also a car obsessed culture overall, especially here in the suburbs.  People will drive to places that are a few minutes away.

Since moving from the city, I always feel strange crossing a busy street here...I bet some people think I'm poor or a really old looking kid!

At any rate, there are a lot of factors at play (yes, including genetics). But WRT kids, I do think it's critical to have gym classes in schools (even though I HATED them having been a fat kid), and that school lunches are usually a bunch of garbage. 

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 11:52:40 AM EST

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lol @ really old looking kid . When its busy people are just trying to get across the street before the damn light changes .


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:44:42 PM EST

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I believe there was a study that showed that women feel badly about their bodies immediately after looking at fashion magazines.  I do think they can fuel feelings of inferiority and eating disorders. 
With regards to the 13-year-old males, I was referring more to the movie industry. 

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:06:43 PM EST

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Notice at the end of my post I mentioned that I was only providing some gross generalizations and that it's a complicated issue.  I also mentioned that biology plays a HUGE role, a role that is far too often dismissed by most people In my experience.

Waist hip-ratio is one thing that spans cultures, but another factor that's equally important is symmetry.

I think a lot of people just think it's almost entirely society that determines what others find attractive and that's simply not true.  If anything, society (or should I say, those who want to sell us something) simply plays on our *natural* desires and maybe exaggerates them (think fake boobs, makeup, lighting, airbrushing).

Now, desertpear, we have to make a distinction here between "skinny" and "ultra-skinny".  You started to blur the line when you wrote "women in the media".  I don't think the sexy women on Fox News for example can be compared to the Kate Moss's of the world.  If we want to have that discussion, tha's fine, but that wasn't my original intent.


But it's not just supply and demand either.  If the world was filled with tall guys (let's say everyone was 6'2)  I seriously doubt the short guys would suddently be a hot commodity(average height is 5,10 for men BTW).

There's a reason taller guys are sought after that's spanned history and goes back to the caveman days. If marketers made a concerted effort to make short cool, it might have *some* impact but it would be far less successful than a campaign to make a natural, widespread desire even cooler.

And obviously there are evolutionary explanations for why men prefer large breasts. The problem is of course that marketers have raised the bar and with surgery, lighting, super-bras (and finding the women who naturally have these things), etc, although again that applies to men with cut jaws and six-pack abs.  Same thing with darker people with light eyes (it happens but obviously it's less common, but that's why there are contacts, right?).

At any rate, supply and demand is relevant here because in the end, we all lose.  Both men and women, gay and straight.  There really IS a limited supply of people who have ALL of these characteristics (a great waist hip ratio, symmetrical face and body, larger breasts, light eyes and so on) we shouldn't expect to find them very often in every day life.  (Granted, those of you in LA have a better shot than some but still).

Same with men that are tall, dark and handsome (with a chiseled jaw, non-receeding hairline, six-pack, big but not too big, etc.).  But every day we're bombarded by images of this small subset of (biologically) alpha males and females, which tricks us (consciously or not) into thinking that the supply of them is great.  Again, we might know on the surface that's not true, but it does effect us in some way.

And on top of it as I said, surgery, make-up, lighting and airbrushing take these alpha people and make their appearance completely unrealistic in any way for anyone to acheive without these things, and that applies for women *and* men.  Not to mention the fact that people who act or model can usually afford (financially and time wise) to have surgery, or workout all the time, or hire a personal chef/trainer, etc.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 11:25:27 AM EST

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what percentage of women fit the sizes models wear on the runway and in print?  I dont think there is any danger of American women becoming "super skinny" en mass any time soon. Like I pointed out in an earlier post. Americans are Obese they arent in any danger from being to thin.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 11:43:58 AM EST

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Where did you get that idea? Did I ever say I thought there was a danger that most woman would become ultra-thin, explicitly or implicitly? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.


And I agree, Americans ARE in far more danger of becoming obese these days.  In fact, I pointed out before that I'm annoyed when overweight people use the dangers of being ultra-thin as an excuse to go to the other extreme, as if being fat is healthy and "normal" in the sense that it's to be desired.

For the record, people who are skinny are NOT necessarily healthy, not at all, especially if they eat junk food and never exercise.  With that said, there is mounting evidence that being overweight alone is an independent risk factor for heart attacks, strokes and diabetes.


by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 12:02:06 PM EST

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Yea it was implied . In fact it was more than implied it was laid out in detail how homosexuals and Elle  Magazine are forcing women to conform  so they have to purge and binge.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:46:30 PM EST

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to do anything.

But it's a false dichotomy to suggest that either these things "force" behavior alone OR that they have NO or minimal impact. Realistically it's somewhere in between, any I'm coming from the perspective that a LOT of people DO point to straight men as the main culprit WRT super thin models.

And I said it was complicated and I was generalizing (I even gave a Gross Generalization Alert before I wrote that particular line!).

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 04:12:20 PM EST

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I didn't disagree with what you said, and I think you are totally right about evolutionary roots.  We seem to be discussing several different things here.  A woman's conception of her body is different than how attractive she may be to a man.  Even when I feel slightly overweight, I feel unattractive inside, even though it may actually accentuate my curves and make me more attractive to men.  I do think this conception of myself has been influenced by the preponderance of young thin women in the media, for better or worse.  My awareness of it doesn't seem to completely erase the feeling.  Since I am short and curvy, if I wear loose clothes (or all the clothes we need in the Pacific Northwest to keep warm), I tend to look "fat."   ; But whatever ;)

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:20:02 PM EST

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See, this kind of proves my point. I DON'T think most straight men agree.

A 10 year old boy runway model in a cool outfit is just a 10 year old boy in a cool outfit.  By contrast, an attractive, healthy woman in a cool outfit is, well, an attractive healthy women who makes the clothes look even better.

Do you think most clothing designers are straight men? How about the people that do their makeup and hair?
 
Sure, *some* of them are straight men but from what I've seen, the overwhelming majority of people in that industry are women and gay men.  That would also explain some of the ridiculous hair and makeup they do. The end result may be "artistic", but often times it sure as hell doesn't look attractive.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 12:42:35 PM EST

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The pictures I included above *might* turn you on if you're a parrot or some other type of wild bird.  If that's the case you can read English and use the internet, so please email me because I think we can make some $$$.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 01:12:28 PM EST

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