Notice at the end of my post I mentioned that I was only providing some gross generalizations and that it's a complicated issue.  I also mentioned that biology plays a HUGE role, a role that is far too often dismissed by most people In my experience.

Waist hip-ratio is one thing that spans cultures, but another factor that's equally important is symmetry.

I think a lot of people just think it's almost entirely society that determines what others find attractive and that's simply not true.  If anything, society (or should I say, those who want to sell us something) simply plays on our *natural* desires and maybe exaggerates them (think fake boobs, makeup, lighting, airbrushing).

Now, desertpear, we have to make a distinction here between "skinny" and "ultra-skinny".  You started to blur the line when you wrote "women in the media".  I don't think the sexy women on Fox News for example can be compared to the Kate Moss's of the world.  If we want to have that discussion, tha's fine, but that wasn't my original intent.


But it's not just supply and demand either.  If the world was filled with tall guys (let's say everyone was 6'2)  I seriously doubt the short guys would suddently be a hot commodity(average height is 5,10 for men BTW).

There's a reason taller guys are sought after that's spanned history and goes back to the caveman days. If marketers made a concerted effort to make short cool, it might have *some* impact but it would be far less successful than a campaign to make a natural, widespread desire even cooler.

And obviously there are evolutionary explanations for why men prefer large breasts. The problem is of course that marketers have raised the bar and with surgery, lighting, super-bras (and finding the women who naturally have these things), etc, although again that applies to men with cut jaws and six-pack abs.  Same thing with darker people with light eyes (it happens but obviously it's less common, but that's why there are contacts, right?).

At any rate, supply and demand is relevant here because in the end, we all lose.  Both men and women, gay and straight.  There really IS a limited supply of people who have ALL of these characteristics (a great waist hip ratio, symmetrical face and body, larger breasts, light eyes and so on) we shouldn't expect to find them very often in every day life.  (Granted, those of you in LA have a better shot than some but still).

Same with men that are tall, dark and handsome (with a chiseled jaw, non-receeding hairline, six-pack, big but not too big, etc.).  But every day we're bombarded by images of this small subset of (biologically) alpha males and females, which tricks us (consciously or not) into thinking that the supply of them is great.  Again, we might know on the surface that's not true, but it does effect us in some way.

And on top of it as I said, surgery, make-up, lighting and airbrushing take these alpha people and make their appearance completely unrealistic in any way for anyone to acheive without these things, and that applies for women *and* men.  Not to mention the fact that people who act or model can usually afford (financially and time wise) to have surgery, or workout all the time, or hire a personal chef/trainer, etc.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 11:25:27 AM EST

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what percentage of women fit the sizes models wear on the runway and in print?  I dont think there is any danger of American women becoming "super skinny" en mass any time soon. Like I pointed out in an earlier post. Americans are Obese they arent in any danger from being to thin.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 11:43:58 AM EST

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Where did you get that idea? Did I ever say I thought there was a danger that most woman would become ultra-thin, explicitly or implicitly? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.


And I agree, Americans ARE in far more danger of becoming obese these days.  In fact, I pointed out before that I'm annoyed when overweight people use the dangers of being ultra-thin as an excuse to go to the other extreme, as if being fat is healthy and "normal" in the sense that it's to be desired.

For the record, people who are skinny are NOT necessarily healthy, not at all, especially if they eat junk food and never exercise.  With that said, there is mounting evidence that being overweight alone is an independent risk factor for heart attacks, strokes and diabetes.


by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 12:02:06 PM EST

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Yea it was implied . In fact it was more than implied it was laid out in detail how homosexuals and Elle  Magazine are forcing women to conform  so they have to purge and binge.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:46:30 PM EST

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to do anything.

But it's a false dichotomy to suggest that either these things "force" behavior alone OR that they have NO or minimal impact. Realistically it's somewhere in between, any I'm coming from the perspective that a LOT of people DO point to straight men as the main culprit WRT super thin models.

And I said it was complicated and I was generalizing (I even gave a Gross Generalization Alert before I wrote that particular line!).

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 04:12:20 PM EST

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I didn't disagree with what you said, and I think you are totally right about evolutionary roots.  We seem to be discussing several different things here.  A woman's conception of her body is different than how attractive she may be to a man.  Even when I feel slightly overweight, I feel unattractive inside, even though it may actually accentuate my curves and make me more attractive to men.  I do think this conception of myself has been influenced by the preponderance of young thin women in the media, for better or worse.  My awareness of it doesn't seem to completely erase the feeling.  Since I am short and curvy, if I wear loose clothes (or all the clothes we need in the Pacific Northwest to keep warm), I tend to look "fat."   ; But whatever ;)

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:20:02 PM EST

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