Friday Fun Post: What Are Your Pet Peeves? | 90 comments (90 topical, 0 hidden)
Bobo (none / 0)
It's human nature.  We all think we know more than the guy that disagrees with our point of view.  It's one of the reasons we demonize others who don't agree with us on issues like abortion.  One side is said to "hate women" or to "want to repress them".  The other side is said to be "amoral" or "murderers".  ; It's much less traumatic to demonize the other than to consider we may not be 100% correct about something.  Abortion is a wonderful example because most people on both sides are good people.  It's just that neither side is 100% right and both sides possess a part of the truth.  But I can only say these things because I know it all....

It's another day in paradise...

by happyhominid on 04/25/2008 08:44:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
When I talk about abortion (none / 0)
Condensed Version:

I explain that *both* extremes don't argue it properly.  On the one side people say "it's murder and wrong" as if that's all they need to say.

On the other said you often her "it's a choice", again, as if that's all they need to say.

I always start by asking "is the expected parent financially and emotionally prepared to care for a child, and if not, what kind of life with that child have in most cases?"  I also ask how likely it is for a non-white baby to be adopted, because many try to argue that adoption is ALWAYS an option, which is pure and utter BS for many non-white babies who end up languishing in foster care.

Which is why I bring up the need to improve foster homes and adoption services (which would make people more comfortable with giving up a child).

And of course, I talk about reducing unintended pregnancies in various ways. 

Put it all together, and you have a comprehensive argument for why abortion should be legal.  And it's not all based on one slogan or emotion.

by Tom Hanc on 04/26/2008 11:22:24 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Don't see it this way (none / 0)

I am not a big abortion guy but you begin by describing how one extreme sees it (pro-life) and then go on to explain how the other side sees it and propose this is a new third way. 

In the last 25 years or so I have listened to or read literally thousands of people explain that there should be no discussion of abortion and no other factors matter and it should be illegal.  I have heard zero explain we should promote and advance abortion.  The other side just says it should be an option and these are the reasons why.

I think you have bought into their fraiming of this issue: that there is somehow people who hate abortion and people who like it.

There are not people who like it. 

by ProfRich on 04/26/2008 01:13:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Whoah (none / 0)
That was some super miscommunication Rich.

In no way did I suggest (or *mean* to suggest) that anyone LIKES abortion.

I'm referring to why people think abortion should be legal.  And my argument is that the obvious place for both sides to come together is on how to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies.

Rather than yelling about "abortion is murder" or "it's my choice", THAT is where the debate needs to be, how to reduce abortions and improving the quality of life of babies that are born.

That's the massive failure of pro-lifers, that they (generally) have a singular focus on making abortion illegal rather than working to improving foster care, minority adoption, parenting classes and other resources and of course, comprehensive sex education (which can include abstinence).

Do you still disagree?

by Tom Hanc on 04/26/2008 01:26:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In a sense, I do (none / 0)

As far as I can tell (and I don't go to the meetings or anything) but pro-choicers (thats a funny word) already do support all those things.  I just think the pro-choice side is pretty reasonable (even if you believe they are wrong) and the pro-life side is dogmatic and unreasonable (even if they are right).

What I am hearing is pro-lifers and pro-choicers are both unreasonable lets use common sense and find some middle ground but what is unreasonalbe about pro-choicers?

The already do support education, adoption, prevention, counseling etc.  It just seems to me what you should be saying is pro-lifers are unreasonable and should really adopt a more realistic approach.  I think pro-choice folks tend to already be there.  Talking about pro-choice people as if they are militant, uncompromising and unrealistic just feeds into the right wing framing. 

by ProfRich on 04/26/2008 03:14:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh no (none / 0)
More miscommunication.  Maybe I'm just doing a poor job explaining myself here.

I totally agree that most pro-choicers are for the things I mentioned (although I don't hear as much about improving foster care) and that most pro-lifers are dogmatic and unreasonable.

You are preaching to the choir with that, trust me.

What I'm trying to say is, I think we (we as in pro-choicers) don't always do a good job of framing the debate because many of us just say "it's a choice".  Yes, it IS a choice and *should* be a choice, but that argument is less appealing and less comprehensive than it could and should be.

Again, I realize that many people DO make a  comprehensive argument, but many don't IME.  And in fairness, it may well be because pro-lifers often only say "it's murder!" or end sentences with "it's in the Bible" and "God says so", etc, which closes down any hope of a reasonable discussion.

by Tom Hanc on 04/26/2008 03:22:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In my experience (none / 0)

The pro-choicer you are describing is a myth created by the pro-lifers to destroy any middle ground or hope for compromise.  Its why they use words like "abortionist".

by ProfRich on 04/26/2008 04:14:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Whatever you say baby killer! (none / 0)
You tell that to yourself when you're burning in the hellfire with the other atheists and libs!

by Tom Hanc on 04/26/2008 04:25:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh, I will (none / 0)

I will.

If hell is the only place I can go to escape all these religious nutjobs then sign me up.   I won't be seeing and "CHOOSE LIFE" license plates down there. 

by ProfRich on 04/26/2008 04:34:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
All joking aside (none / 0)
I can't imagine atheists are legion in Texas.  Although more common in Austin I'm sure!

by Tom Hanc on 04/26/2008 04:36:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Actually (none / 0)
The most famous atheist in US History (at least for being an atheist) is from Austin.  Maedline Murray O'Hare.  And Sara Weddington, who argued Rowe v. Wade, is a law professor at UT.

by ProfRich on 04/26/2008 04:45:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll keep that in mind (none / 0)
It's a bonus.

by Tom Hanc on 04/26/2008 07:40:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Friday Fun Post: What Are Your Pet Peeves? | 90 comments (90 topical, 0 hidden)