The environment suffers whether or not you "buy it," unfortunately.  Got any evidence that the environment actually benefits from people having children at this point?  Any at all?

by desertpear on 04/05/2008 07:53:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The environment benefits when you put more people into the world who know how to respect it.

Your argument reminds me of VHEMT, and is similarly flawed.

by jarett on 04/05/2008 08:04:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We'll have to agree to disagree.  As a biologist who has been witnessing environmental degradation on a global scale for almost 50 years, I can't see that more people is the answer.

by desertpear on 04/05/2008 10:20:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
are truly astounding.  If you look at how long it took the human race to get to 1 billion people, you'll be shocked (and probably scared like I was) to see how much faster we reached 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 billion. HINT: Skim and look for my bold sentences if you don't want to read the explanations (fascinating, but hey):

"...There is more: In one day, 200,000 acres of rainforest also vanished, and 13 to 15 million tons of toxic waste, most of which is carcinogenic, was dumped into our air, soil, and water.

So, we have a problem. The story we tell ourselves is that this problem is the result of overpopulation, but there is some confusion in this explanation. For the first 190,000 years of human history, human population around the planet was relatively stable at anywhere from 25 to 75 million people. Then, about seven to ten thousand years ago, we began the age of pyromania - that is, we started using fire to smelt metal from rock, and with the help of metal tools, we became better farmers and hunters who were more efficient at producing food.

And logically, as with any animal population, if you increase the food supply, the numbers grow. The result was that our population increased slowly from 50 million people up to 250 million at the time of Christ, and we reached 500 million by the year 1000. And, somewhere between 1500 and 500 years ago, we began using ancient sunlight for the first time.

Up until then, human beings were fed, clothed, and sheltered entirely by current sunlight -- the sunlight that falls on the earth and is absorbed by plants, converting its energy into plant matter. There was also a 90 million year period, from 300 million years ago until 210 million years ago, called the Carboniferous Period, when the earth was covered by enormous plants that emitted a high level of carbon dioxide.

The average temperature was 12 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than now. These plants absorbed this carbon dioxide and eventually became what we now know as coal. We started using coal during the last 1,000 years, and now consume a million years worth of ancient sunlight each year by burning it. Pretty amazing, when you think about it.

Once we learned how to use ancient sunlight, we didn't have to maintain reservoirs of current sunlight in the form of forests anymore. We could cut forests down, use the land for crops, and produce more food -- and people. So our population grew rapidly, and we reached a population of one billion in the year 1800, after 290,000 years of human history. Then we became even more efficient in our use of ancient sunlight.

We began drilling oil wells, and it took only 130 years to reach two billion. Oil could be transported easily and burned in engines, so we could have a hundred horses pulling a plow in the form of a tractor engine. I mean, the energy stored in a handful of gasoline will propel a car -- thousands of pounds of steel -- for a number of city blocks. And the oil it comes from is three to four hundred million years old.

We reached our third billion in only 30 years, by 1960, and our fourth billion took only 14 years -- 1974. By this time, we used ancient sunlight not only to produce food, but also to kill off our competitors with pesticides and herbicides. Then our fifth billion took 13 years -- 1987 -- and our sixth took only 12 years -- 1999. If you talk to biologists and medical professionals, they will tell you that there are only two precedents for such a steep curve, or spike, in a biological system.

The first one appears when you are periodically measuring the pathogens in the blood system of a person suffering from a blood-borne disease. This sudden spike, which is called amplification, means that the patient's immune system has collapsed, allowing the pathogen, or disease organism, to run amuck. In other words, they are about to die. The other precedent is called cancer.

As a consequence, we have gone from consuming five per cent of the world's fresh water and eight percent of the planet's available energy, in 1850, to consuming over 50 per cent, which is why we are losing 120 species every day.

They have to compete for what is left...."

by Tom Hanc on 04/06/2008 12:02:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]

In the documentary "A crude awakening" they show this graph of predicted world oil production:

peak oil graph 

 

To show how brief this period is in the course of human history look at this one:

fossil oil spike 

Now look at this graph of world population growth over human history:

historical population graph 

 

This is unsettling to contemplate, because what these graphs are showing is that world populations have spiked tremendously on the back of fossil fuels.  Fossil fuels have a peak curve that slopes upward very quickly and likely falls very quickly.  Ask yourself what this means for the population curve.

Desertpear was speaking about it from an environmental standpoint, but it amounts to the same thing: overuse of available resources.  I know what you're saying, and I can see it from both sides, but we have to ask ourselves at some point if we as humans are going to do what rabbits do: reproduce until all available resources are used up and then experience huge population diebacks.  She's taking the long view and thinking about people as a species.  If more people don't exhibit this kind of courage we (the species) are going to eventually be in big trouble.

So much for the Friday "fun post", huh!  Sorry, didn't mean to get so heavy on you. 

by bfaul on 04/06/2008 12:47:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Appreciate you both doing the work of arguing my position ;).  I fear that I don't have the energy to try to change someone's mind sometimes.  Indeed I am talking about the long term.  I don't fret when people choose to have a child or two, but population needs to be part of the discussion of environmental degradation or we are only treating the symptoms rather than the root of the problem.  Those who don't already see environmental degradation on every front, from water shortages and quality, to air quality, to the plastic that is filling up the bellies of seabirds, to climate change, to extinctions, either are not paying attention, or just don't really care about the non-human environment.  We are inseparable from our environment though, and ignore that to our species' peril.  Jarett is right about one thing--after pondering whether humans actually provide any benefit to the planet, I wouldn't mind seeing them bring their numbers WAY down.  So, count me among those who are quite existentialist and unsentimental about continuing the family line.  My parents' genetic line dies with me. 

by desertpear on 04/06/2008 03:02:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And the reason that population control is NOT part of the discussion is political and religious and not scientific.  It invariably brings up the topic of abortion, which is an issue nobody wants to touch except in terms of extremes--choice vs life.  We need to be able to discuss abortion and birth control in more productive, objective ways, without all of the emotion.  This particular topic could be approached in an ethical, bipartisan fashion that acknowledges peoples' concerns with ending life, but also promotes the most ethically acceptable means of preventing unwanted conception and ending unwanted pregnancies early in gestation.

by desertpear on 04/06/2008 03:19:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Baby Killer!  Monster!

(Did I mention baby killer?)  ;)

I was listening to Catholic talk radio yesterday. I do that sometimes for a laugh or to get angry.  There is one show in particular that is incredibly entertaining if you want to be shocked (over the ignorance, and overzealous/warped worldview) called The Drew Mariani show.

Some of his topics are boring (when he gets too much into church history, etc.), but he talks about modern, secular culture a lot.  Like for Halloween he talked about how Harry Potter could be dangerous, and yesterday he was ranting about the "Culture Of Death" and how the "Contraceptive Mentality" was destroying our faith/country.

Oh, and if you're lucky, you'll hear some callers.  I'm amazed at these people.  The questions they ask are so pathetic.  While they might be adults age-wise, their mental/emotional development is questionable at best.  Why else would they call and ask things like "my good friend had a baby through a fertility clinic. I know she loves it very much and it's a wonderful child, but I know what she did was wrong.  What should I do?"

I couldn't believe my ears.  Is she f*ng serious?  I had several choice words for her, but I'll let you weigh in to keep my blood pressure down.  All I'll say is that these people are directionless kids who never grew up and learned to think for themselves.  Sure, everyone needs advice from time to time, but this goes way beyond that IMO.

by Tom Hanc on 04/06/2008 03:28:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Must be part of, or similar to the 28% that support Bush no matter what he does.  Sort of a sheeplike mentality where you let someone else decide what is right and wrong for you without needing any evidence or supporting data in order to draw your own conclusions.  This is where Cenk's religious rant should be inserted ;)  It is so far from my experience (even being brought up as a catholic), that I just don't get it. 

by desertpear on 04/06/2008 04:39:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Population control is incredibly important and is the 800-lb gorilla in the room that no one talks about.  I am afraid, however, that unless we can somehow market it as desirable or create incentives for not having children, we will end up with this.

by jarett on 04/06/2008 03:28:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]

They happen naturally. As populations become more and more developed and the child becomes a financial strain as opposed to an extra worker in the family work force, birth rate drops.

In most of Europe and Japan with absolutely zero effort population growth has gone negative.  As China has developed, its population growth has declined.  India remains undeveloped and it will soon pass China.

The U.S. is an interesting case.  Due to the large number of people living in poverty and therefore having an undeveloped mentality our population growth remains positive but if you look at the wealthy, or even middle class, you see very little natural growth.

In short, the answer to population growth is development.  Unfortunately the more developed a country is, the more resources it uses per capita so its a double edged sword.

I'm sure that completely allayed your fear. 

by ProfRich on 04/06/2008 11:13:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I do agree that it happens naturally, but if we want to bring "everyone's" standard of living up, without having to sacrifice our own, or send the planet into code, it makes sense to me to at least try to speed up the process.  I guess I just don't see that limiting people to two children is that much of a sacrifice, but I do realize there is huge resistance to this type of interference in peoples' lives.  Then again, one would seem to want their children to at least inherit a livable planet.  I'm guessing that the buildup of toxics like flame retardants, DDE, etc. will eventually have more effects on human reproductive success.  oh yeah, but we can just grow them in test tubes.

by desertpear on 04/08/2008 11:59:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]