Summary post 

 

Nick post a swath of arguments. He does not use prejorative terms to describe those he disagrees with.

Ken disagrees with the arguments. Ken can't reply to all of them in a sensible way, however. Or he can, but wishes not to do so (too litle time, still had a cake in the oven he needed to get out asap, ...). He calls Nick a 'fool' and a 'nitwit', hoping to provoke Nick into straying of the argument.

Nick, in stead of escalating the argument by countering with childish name-calling, does the responsible thing and ignores the provocation.

Ken is confused and tries to provocate again.

Kudos to Nick. His socialist ideals might be laughable in many respects, but he at least is the bigger man. 

by Cogitor on 05/11/2008 05:22:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]

That might be true. Or maybe not. I don't care enough to do extensive research. "He started it!" arguments are not really that interesting or mature anyway.

In this thread he wasn't offensive. Regardless of what he said in any previous thread, he might want to engage in polite discussion in this thread. If you like to respond in kind, you engage in polite discussion here, and go and flame off elswhere.

by Cogitor on 05/11/2008 06:13:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
As this thread clearly shows, the flame wars are started by Kenneth. I post a thread topic, and I am attacked as "Nick Head the Dick Head" before I say even a word. The real loser here is Kenneth because he must realize that without me, he is nothing on this board. I am aware that he will not say "I'm sorry" because he one of those wannabe men who we call, conservatives, you know the type who think that talking a big game is the game itself. So really I feel no loss, and as we can all see everything I just said is easily proved by this thread alone. Enough of feeding the troll.

Now of course I object to your use of the "laughable" socialist idea's, because I am not so sure what is so "laughable" about them, mind pointing out to me what is so laughable? I am interested in your opinion, is it based on facts of ideology?

Blog: http://perspectivos.blogspo t.com/

by Nick86 on 05/11/2008 06:54:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

You remind me of me when I was a younger man.

by ProfRich on 05/11/2008 11:46:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I feel like I'm speaking to a ton of bricks. "He started it" is not an argument (see previous post of mine), yet you use it twice.

Negative behavior of Nick in other threads does not excuse similar behavior by Ken in this one.

Being condescending on the subject of economics by Nick in a previous thread does not excuse similar behavior by Ken concerning energy policy in this one.

But enough of this. It bores me, and everyone reading this. On to energy policy!

Converting coal to fuel for combustion engines: It might be economicaly possible when oil becomes too expensive, but the production will usuelly emit more carbon than pumping up oil and transporting/refining it. If you care about carbon emissions (as you well should, but this is a different discussion), this is a problem. If not, this might be a solution.
By the way, Ken mentioned China paying too much for oil while the US used cheap coal-based fuel. Don't count on it. China has large coal reserves as well (as does Europe), it evens out.

Using coal to produce energy: economically possible, but emits a lot of carbon. If you care about that, don't go coal: large scale storage of emissions is still only theoretical - might change though, so don't count it out.
However: coal will run out, and faster if we start using more of it.

Using Nuclear power: economically possible. But uranium will run out if we use more of it too. It's a 100-year stopgap measure (breeder reactors might change this, I'm not an expert; let's hope they do). And there's the waste: 300 milion Americans, 300 milion shot-glasses - that'll be a big hangover.

Solution: Hell if I knew. I keep my fingers crossed for nuclear fusion, but that's still decades away. It would solve a lot of problems, though. But I think solar would be a better bet for now.

by Cogitor on 05/11/2008 08:03:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
@ Cogitor:

"Converting coal to fuel for combustion engines"

This is the problem itself, we are not reforming the internal combustion engine economy. As long as we slaves to a technology developed in the late 19th century, we will never escape the trap of carbon. Also, let us not forget that this technology has made too many people very rich, even created a "aristocratic" working class with the auto workers. How can we prove this, the documentary, "Who killed the Electric Car" is a good example of how special interests, or as they really are, class interests, undermine technological development for accumulation. Exactly as Marx predicted they would. Same goes for Marijuana which was made illegal in 1937 because it was a competitor the DuPont and others, has nothing to do with medical reasons.

"Using coal to produce energy: economically possible, but emits a lot of carbon. "

Which is a contradiction, again the endemic  problem of capitalist logic. Basically, short term profit, long term destruction. As Keynes said, "we are all dead in the long-run". Basically, the current system is suicidal thats obvious to anyone who is not ideologically capitalist. What is economically possible does not equal, socially or economically viable.

Blog: http://perspectivos.blogspo t.com/

by Nick86 on 05/11/2008 08:22:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]

First of all, you represent a false dilema. It's not either all-out capitalism or socialism. There's a middle road. It's called regulation by a democratically elected government. For political purposes, however, that middle road has been painted by the far right as socialist, with great succes.

A. Seccond, if for reasons of survival as a civilisation, the state needs to dictate "how much energy we use and what kind of vehicles we drive", I don't see a problem with that. If you believe global warming's link to human emissions is real, you should see the logic in this.

B If, however, you do not consider the link between global warming and human emissions credible, I can verry well see how you would consider "the state dictating how much energy we use and what kind of vehicles we drive" a limitation of your autonomy not proportional to the emission-issue.

Until there is a concensus on the issue of global warming - emissions between us, this debate will go nowhere: I will adhere to position A, you to position B.

by Cogitor on 05/11/2008 09:15:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You are correct in suggesting that there is a middle-ground between the free-market and socialism, we call it a Keynesian/regulated economy. Works pretty well in Germany, although Germany can be considered a mix between neoliberalism and the welfare state, but it maintains the title as the worlds most competitive economy based on exports, which has seen its emissions actually decrease in absolute terms since 1990.

Unregulated capitalism can NEVER correct itself, the market cannot correct itself because its goal is profit not social justice. The irrationality of capitalism, principally neoliberal capitalism is this, again, privatizing profits and socializing costs. Neoliberalism has NO problem socializing our costs. I agree with you that the state has to step in and internalize the externalizes of the firms to FORCE them to change their ways. As long as they do not pay for their externalizes, they will not have an incentive to change. I am totally in favour of regulated capitalism, the real indoctrination is not from my analysis. The real danger of totalitarianism is the pseudo-scientific neoclassical analysis which justifies exploitation as a natural, cosmic force of nature. ;)

Blog: http://perspectivos.blogspo t.com/

by Nick86 on 05/11/2008 09:35:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]

"I agree with you that the state has to step in and internalize the externalizes of the firms to FORCE them to change their ways. As long as they do not pay for their externalizes, they will not have an incentive to change."

Note, this is a NEOCLASSICAL theory!
 

Blog: http://perspectivos.blogspo t.com/

by Nick86 on 05/11/2008 09:36:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]