How has Obama "tried to hide his Populism/liberalism from the people"?  And even if he did, how does that make those views more or less crazy/electable to you?  In other words, why would you vote for Edwards when you disagree with his views because they're too liberal?  And, based on that answer, why wouldn't you vote for Obama (since he's a touch more moderate than Edwards)?

And BTW, your exact words were something to the effect of "I was an Edwards Supporter Originally" (I looked it up even).

Also, this whole issue with people being angry about Obama's FISA vote sure does make your whole "everyone thinks Obama is Jesus and they'll swallow whatever lies he throws up" thing really look like the bullshit it is.

by Spencer on 06/26/2008 01:06:05 AM EST

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I guess it's not really FISA.  I meant telecom immunity.

by Spencer on 06/26/2008 01:09:20 AM EST

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Bobo is famous for these but this one is widespread.  I had this conversation two nights ago with a conservative friend.

Con: Obama is ultra-liberal.  He's to the left of Che Guevera.

Reasonable Human Being: I don't get that impression.  His policies on (insert reasonable left of center policy list Obama has voiced) suggest he is not particularly liberal.

Con: Right, you believe that? Can't you see he is lying to us?  Can't you see his a sleeper agent for the communist revolution?

RHB: Not based on anything he has ever said or done, no.

Con: Because all of that is a lie! An artificial construct to disguise his insane communism like a Trojan Horse!

RHB: What makes you think this?  What evidence do you have of this?

Con: Kool-Aid drinker!!!!!

Its reminiscient of the whole faith vs. science argument.  In that the religious people just say every piece of scientific evidence they don't like was put their by Satan and is a test of our faith (like all those dinosaur bones). 

by ProfRich on 06/26/2008 02:35:16 AM EST

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Dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark.

Get it right. 

by z1p101 on 06/26/2008 02:47:19 AM EST

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All one has to do is examine Obama's limited voting record to see where he butters his bread politically (aside from his recent capitulation on the FISA thing)... Even someone like me who hates dealing with evidence and fact can accomplish this...

The real way to tell what kind of politician he is and what he'll possibly do comes not from an intense examination of him and his record (which supports the notion that he is at least a liberal, perhaps not a pinko marxist, although i wonder). It comes from an old addage of days past -

"Birds of a Feather Flock Together"

Look at who supports him. Do you want me to list all the clubs, associations and notable figures who endorse him. Its Like a Liberal who's who list...

Look who he chooses to associate with - Do we really need to go over this again?

Look at the pattern he seems to be developing:

1. He says he'll support public financing - then rejects it outright because of political expediency.

2. He would "Never Disavow" the Trinity Church or its Pastor - Then he quits the church when its politically expedient. Dumped em hard like a hot potato with bare hands - where's the love (or the loyalty)?

3. He vows to support a free Palestinian state and talks with Iran - Until he goes and visits AIPAC, where he sounds very conservative like - again, when its politically expedient.

4. He tells the media to leave his wife alone, shes not a reasonable target - and the campaign puts her out on The View and has a spread in US magazine and lightens her tone and rhetoric, willfully entering herself into the fray. The pundits say this reversal is done for political expedience...

5. He says he wants to clean up and change campaigns and their funding, but takes money from every major Lender/Broker bank in the country. Yeah - thats change we can all believe in! thats Political Expedience alright!

6. He pledges to Fillibuster Telecom immunity, but capitualtes for - say it with me - political expedience...

Do I need to continue Professor? Do you see a pattern developing here? Or will you dismiss it as speculation, or unsubstantiated hate. Or will you just label me a racist and be done with me? Thats what most "netrooters" like to do.

Shall we go into his very public stances on Gun rights (or lack thereof)? Health Care? Oil and Energy Policy? I could go on for a while!

Im not saying hes Joseph Stalin - Im saying that he is not a candidate of change. He is a politician and does not care who he throws under the bus to get his way elected. Is this the man you want to lead your revolution? Is this the man you vow will "Change" our system?


And for those of you who continue the old line "Well, hes better than the alternative, or he's a step in the right direction." I say hogwash - he the same as all the rest, a liar and a panderer and a man driven by pure ambition - it takes real Cajones to run for the highest office after 1 year in the Senate. I wonder where his sense of such entitlement comes from... We'll have that discussion later, Im sure!

Thanks again!

:)


by bobo1 on 06/26/2008 03:13:45 AM EST

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This weekend rent and watch the movie Training Day. There is this part when Denzel Washington tells Ethan Hawke that you can't change anything from the outside. You have to be on the inside to change anything and no one trusts you unless you have a little dirt on you.

I don't buy that Obama is the second coming any more than you do. He is a politician and they are ambitious by nature. However, I do believe he does want to make changes and as you so often have poined out it is going to be difficult for him to get into the inside because of his completion so he needs to take advantage of everything he can.

Anyway, he has got to be better than the retard we have now or the Republican flip flopping crypt keeper who wants the job next. All we can do is go up from here.

That is the way the world works and I know you know that so stop feigning all this surprise and disgust because I know you are full of shit.

Oh yea, you have not earned the right to call me Zippy yet. 

by z1p101 on 06/26/2008 03:47:22 AM EST

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Everything on your list shows that Obama is a politician.  Newsflash!  They don't show him to be the liberal extremist that you claimed previously, so which one is it?

And what's John Edwards' stance on gun rights again?  Health care?  Energy policy?  Edwards also had no record, and pandered at every opportunity, yet he was acceptable to you.  I really wonder why.  Enlighten me.

by Spencer on 06/26/2008 03:49:12 AM EST

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So...

You hate Obama because he is secretly very liberal and not openly liberal like John Edwards who you like but you don't like liberal ideas and Obama is secretly liberal because he claims to support public financing and doesn't, is endorsed by liberal groups who have chosen him over the only other real choice McCain, he secretly holds a conservative pro-Isreali position, his wife was on the View to rebutt GOP attacks on her, he takes money from the banking industry, he supports Telecom immunity but he does favor gun control, fixing health care and renewable energy.

Yeah, you really proved he was a secret liberal there bobo.

Tell the truth, you forgot which side you were arguing about three sentences into this post and accidentally attacked your own argument, didn't you?

But on the plus side, everyone understand my logic short circuit post now? 

by ProfRich on 06/26/2008 11:13:10 AM EST

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