Earth to bobo, earth to Bobo...pull your head out of your ass. For someone who says they dislike Bush you took the Lou Dobbs/George Bush line hook line and drill bit...Any oil recovered is YEARS down the road, if at all. This isn't me saying this, these are oil "experts" from WSJ article on same

Touted US Offshore Oil Drilling Expansion Hinges on High Prices

"Energy producers are likely to need years more of high oil prices in order to develop any new reserves opened up by the lifting of offshore drilling restrictions...the industry is also certain to need high prices to pay for finding and extracting oil and gas hidden in the newly accessible seabed. Few rigs and even fewer people are sitting idle, waiting for an oil rush in virgin territory. Producers will either need to pull equipment and personnel from other projects or pay through the nose. Either solution is likely to delay production of some of those 18 billion barrels; other newly opened areas could remain untouched for lack of rigs or money."

Meanwhile, U.S. oil companies continue to hold back on building refineries despite the increases seen in 2005 in prices for gasoline, heating oil and jet fuel. While regulatory issues are one barrier, oil companies generally see better returns on investment in oil exploration rather than refinery capacity "

 You of all people should know that giving a drunk just a little more booze never solves the problem.

Oil is dead...enviroment or no enviroment we need to move on and transition to new energy sources. Now is the time.

"But if we just caught more whales the price of whale oil would come down...arr!" 19the Century Whaling Captain

 We all know how that worked out.

by MRFred on 07/15/2008 06:51:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]
OK, I'll go as far to agree and say oil is "dying" - so whats the alternative and more importantly, who is going to provide it?

You Liberal environmentalists have been screaming for years "Alternative Energy" blah blah blah... Where is it? What is it?

Wind - at $10000 a pop for a turbine that produces a milifraction of electricity that coal or oil does? Whose got the money to pay for that - Government? Yeah, they've got lots of money to spare for that!

Solar - See wind above... And theres also those damn pesky things we call darkness and clouds...

Hydroelectric - Can we say alterning landscapes and totally wrecking the environment? And plus you have to be around a lot of running water (something else you guys scream we're short of...)

Ethanol and Biofuels - Hey, isnt that what oil starts off as? Bio-fuel? Still pollutes, still has the same carbon chains and it jacks the Hell out of world food prices... Go ahead and pay $8 for a gallon of milk because all the corn is being used for gas instead of food for the cows...

Fred, the fact is that even if we had the absolute technology to produce electricity and drive our cars without oil right now, it would still take us 50-100 years to wean ourselves off of it... So why aren't we drilling and using the oil we have now while developing these new resources? if the oil is there, why arent we using it?

Is it the governments role to be in the "green" business? Where are the upstarts? Why dont we have all of these alternatives yet?

Why haven't we gone more Nuclear yet? Even the French pussies have Nuclear power!!!! Most of Europe is powered Nuclear...

Its not that I want oil companies to win, Fred. Its not that I have investment in oil. Its a question of "Whose gonna do it, and whats gonna make them do it?" Congress with their 2% approval rating isnt gonna force any industry to change. Bitching and screaming "Save the Planet" isnt gonna do it either...

$10 a gallon gas might do it, but is that how Democrats want to force this problem down our throats? I guarentee that the Republicans if anything will make sure we know exactly who allowed the gas to become this high - THE DEMOCRATS IN CHARGE...

So whats the fix? Inform deluded bobo, cause I'd really like to know!

:)

by bobo1 on 07/15/2008 09:32:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
there is no one solution...there are several.

 

You Liberal environmentalists...

Whose a liberal environmentalist ? I'm a realist. Sure we will need oil to transition to new sources. However,the longer we prolong the oil boom bust cycle..eventually, and in the not to distant future it will be a permanent bust.

More carbon isn't going to solve a problem generated by too much carbon. Drilling for more oil isn't going to solve a problem generated by decreasing supplies and increasing demand because we are running out of oil.

 Most of Europe is powered Nuclear...

Not really...if you want to use Europe as an example...

After years of playing second fiddle to mainstream power sources, Europe's renewable energy sector is now going from strength to strength. Lucrative government subsidies, an EU-wide goal to reduce CO2 emissions 20% by 2020, and growing public support for the fight against climate change have turned this new industry into a force to be reckoned with. 

It's no wonder then the EU will install over 40% of the world's wind farms over the next eight years. as 13 of the 20 largest wind power markets are located in Europe. "Wind is becoming a tried and tested technology for many EU countries," says Catalina Robledo, European wind energy analyst at EER. 

Being a old Nuc Power type I have no problem with nuclear...but my experience is that safety was and is the priority in the Navy, not profit.

Not so with commercial. Rethugs would start the deregulation crap like they did with electricity market and we all know how that worked out: see Enron and the California energy crisis, the Enron loophole and the resultant oil speculation, see 140+ Oil, Mortgage market see Mortgage crisis. Savings and Loans...and on and on and on.

A "meltdown" in nuclear is a bit more permanent than a meltdown in a mortgage market. If the Navy ran the reactors....no problem.


 You will  notice that the US has more nuc plants and produces more MW than any country on earth.( Second column is plant under construction)

France population 61,875,822  per capita generation 978.11

US population 301,139,947 per capita generation 2991.68

So we  use a shit load more electricity per capita than they do...

US: 13,351.067 kWh per capita

France 7,899.736 kWh per capita

Also only 1.9% of our electric generation comes from oil....smaller cars...less petro based packaging all that stuff we could go along way to reducing oil usage.


 

Sources: Energy Information Administration, Form EIA-906, "Power Plant Report;" and Form EIA-920 "Combined Heat and Power Plant Report."

Ethanol...Rethugs from the heartland are all over that...money in their pockets. Biofuels have a place...but Ive never advocated corn based ethanol...cellulistic ethanol is more viable...but the research goes on. Its more of a local solution in the US.

Solar...you live in Arizona and you worry about clouds? Your in Solar Central...

 

So there are a wide range of solutions...there is no magic bullet. That's not what out Rethugnican friend say, its all oil all the time. Rethugs being the anal retentive types just cant give up the old habits. Drill Drill Drill is just a feel good meaningless gesture...plus one that makes them money while not solving the problem.


 

by MRFred on 07/15/2008 12:03:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
First of all, thank you for your very thourough response addressing my questions - even if we disagree on 99 percent on politics, I find you very informative and passionate about what you believe and I respect that. I agree with you completely on solar here in AZ. Every damn business and house should have panels here in the Valley... The reason we don't lends to the 1 question I have of you concerning "alternative" energy - WHO IS GONNA PAY FOR ALL OF THIS??? The government - yeah right! The oil companies - Why should they and lose their profits? Individual citizens? - OK that's gonna happen!!! Are we to nationalize energy/gas resources? That won't pass even the most Democratic congress! So where does the money come from? You have explained "What" when it comes to alternative energies. Now explain "How". I'm sure you're up to the task... :)

by bobo1 on 07/15/2008 03:21:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Pool your money together (reduces the individual burden tremendously which is the whole point), get some federal funds to assist and give tax breaks to individuals and businesses who take advantage and go green with solar, etc.

PS---Reagan and Grover Norquist did a lot of damaging things to this country but one of the worst was convincing people that investing and flushing money down the toilet money are the same thing. They're not.

Example:

Billions and Trillions spent on a pointless war that may have made us less safe=Wasted Money

Billions and Trillions spent on infrastructure and alternative energy=Investment (that gives returns for decades if not centuries)



by Tom Hanc on 07/15/2008 03:37:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Bias, when you say "taxes", you almost say it gleefully - let me ask you a few questions to rub that "tax and spend" smirk off your face... First, when YOU say raise taxes, I'm going to assume you are talking about corporate and not middle income taxes. With that assumption, don't you realize when you raise corporate taxes you are really raising costs to the consumers (customers) of those corporations? Corporations are not going to allow their profit margins to shrink if their taxes are raised! Therefore, they always pass along the expense to the consumer, so hence your CORPORATE tax rate increase really is a killer cost HIKE to the consumer (middle and lower income people) - How does that help us? Secondly, you say we are spending trillions of dollars we don't have on the war (which is absolutely correct). What makes you think that we can shift that spending to alternative energy/Infrastructure when WE STILL DON'T HAVE that money to begin with? So you're saying that massive deficit spending is OK if they have "good intentions" with the money? Where is the logic in that? And thirdly, assuming that we do redistribute those trillions in war funds to infrastructure/alternate energy resources here at home - doesn't that just mean we give what you liberals like to call "corporate welfare" (subsidies) to multi-national energy corporations? Aren't they the ones in control of developing these "green" technologies? This sounds a lot like robbing Peter to pay Paul - and it seems to me that Liberals rationalize this thinking because their "intentions" are more noble or of better quality than the Conservatives. Sounds and looks to me that its the same old game with the same old results its just the Liberals friends and partners benefitting from our tax dollars rather than the Conservatives - How is that CHANGE in any way? I appreciate your answer to these questions! :)

by bobo1 on 07/15/2008 06:26:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Your paying for it ( oil) now....so to answer your question...we will. We pay for everything directly or indirectly, at least we can have a say in it.

We are paying, or I should say, will be paying for Gramm, Greenspan, Bush and Berneke's Mortgage speculation and I dont recall anyone asked me about that...

And no one said oil companies will lose their profits. We just don't need to give away the farm...like the Rethugs propose, holding the lower gasoline price carrot in front of our faces. 

Thats what they want...why should we sign over our offshore reserves to the big oil companies for a few campaign contributions.

No, if we are going to open up offshore reserves, it should be for domestic consumption only...not dumped into the big oil pool to be sold to speculators and China.

Regardless of how the Rethugs spin it, oil companies are now global companies...they do not have the interests of America,  you or I in mind. The oil will go to the highest bidder, if that hurts the US , oh well.

As we speak the oil companies are pushing a pipeline from Canada to the US West coast so they can sell oil from the Alberta oil sand fields..currently our largest single source of imported oil...to China.

Just a few ideas....

  • Conservation measures first...
  • Retool the power grid higher efficiency transmission lines
  • Higher CAFE Standards for vehicles.
  • Expand wind farms in the wind corridor.
  • End corn ethanol subsidies
  • Standardize nuclear plant design and operator training
  • Reform tax code to allow full deduction ( depreciation ) of solar panels for home use
among other things...

by MRFred on 07/15/2008 04:10:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The true cost of gasoline is actually far higher than $4 a gallon. 

Yes, that's partly because the price per gallon doesn't reflect the subsidies we give to oil companies but that's not even what I'm referring to.

I'm referring to the billions of dollars we spend each year just to protect our oil interests.  Add to that the health problems created by burning fossil fuels (increased rates of asthma, bronchitis and even cancer) and the true cost of a gallon of gas is easily double what we think we pay at the pump or more.

As usual the oil companies externalize costs that end up being paid by Joe Taxpayer.

So the oil we think is so cheap is not nearly as cheap as we think it is. Alternative energy production will be more expensive in the short/medium term yes, but the price gap is not as large as it appears to be.

by Tom Hanc on 07/15/2008 04:52:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
To watch credibility, one must have creditability and in Kens case that is a dubious proposition at best:
MRFred: “And no one said oil companies will lose their profits.”
Here's a recent exchange between Maxine Waters (D, CA) and the CEO of Shell Oil. Maurice Hinchey (D, NY) says we should nationalize the refineries.

What I sad was

And no one said oil companies will lose their profits.We just don't need to give away the farm...like the Rethugs propose, holding the lower gasoline price carrot in front of our faces. 

As far as Maxine Waters goes,  good for her..thats one opinion, highly unlikely, as you well know , much like another extremist position, I'm sure you will recognize it

 

It’s time to quit your lying and bullshitting you old fool. This is about getting Democrats the hell out of the way and allowing oil companies to drill, EVERYWHERE!! Shut the fuck up about your environmentally sensitive icebergs and your pristine rockies and your endangered brine shrimp. Kne TX

Of course I'm sure all Americans want oil wells everywhere.

MRFred: “Why should we sign over our offshore reserves to the big oil companies for a few campaign contributions.”
Government contracts can be written to give one of every four barrels produced to the government, or payment in kind.

 Thats true..they can be written...but in a Republican world they wont be...another set of sweet deals. The Republicans simply don't collect the money or conveniently forget about it...

The Interior Department’s program to collect billions of dollars annually from oil and gas companies that drill on federal lands is troubled by mismanagement, ethical lapses and fears of retaliation against whistle-blowers, the department’s chief independent investigator has concluded.

Prepared by the Interior Department’s inspector general, Earl E. Devaney, the report said that investigators found a “profound failure” in the agency’s technology for monitoring oil and gas payments.

It suggested that the agency was too cozy with oil companies and that internal critics had good reason to fear punishment.

“It demonstrates a Band-Aid approach to holding together one of the federal government’s largest revenue-producing operations,” Mr. Devaney concluded.

 

Now to distort a thought one must take every thing out of context their entire passage explains the opinion better than Kens distortion:

 

And no one said oil companies will lose their profits.We just don't need to give away the farm...like the Rethugs propose, holding the lower gasoline price carrot in front of our faces.

Thats what they want...why should we sign over our offshore reserves to the big oil companies for a few campaign contributions.

No, if we are going to open up offshore reserves, it should be for domestic consumption only...not dumped into the big oil pool to be sold to speculators and China.

Now, for some Ken credibility checks

If the U.S. is paying a very high price for oil, why would a producer ship oil produced off the Mississippi Gulf Coast all the way to China, when they could sell it to the Chevron refinery in Pascagoula?

Easy, So they can get an even higher price from China. Much like the big oil companies are doing now, attempting push trough a pipeline to the west coast of the US from Alberta  so they can ship oil sand products to China bypassing the US, who is the customer of choice , for now. Also, these are global corporations, not Americana companies...they have no loyalty or interest in solving our energy problem. Just profits.

 

 

by MRFred on 07/16/2008 07:41:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
That the southwest should be covered by One Giant Solar-Panel.

That chart made me think that's not such a joke after all.

;)

by Tom Hanc on 07/15/2008 06:25:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]

It was about a buck-oh-four in Austin today.  The AC in my car went out.

Putting a giant anything between me and the sun sounds pretty good.

by ProfRich on 07/15/2008 11:25:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
A giant solar panel over the southwest and a giant magnifying glass over the Midwest for me.

You stay cool and harness sun power and we get hot to fight the disgustingly cold winters.

What do you say?

PS---104? Don't remind me, we might move there remember.

by Tom Hanc on 07/15/2008 11:39:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
When it gets hot, stay inside!

by ProfRich on 07/15/2008 11:58:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
At least $10 or something.

by Tom Hanc on 07/15/2008 11:59:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Oh so now I'm a socialist... its amazing how a simple discussion on energy turns into a "socialist energy plan"

Distortion #1 More carbon isn't going to solve a problem generated by too much carbon.”
Until we install nuclear reactors in every vehicle, we need more carbon to burn in internal combustion engines, so that we can propel vehicles down the road. The problem isn’t too much carbon, the problem is not enough carbon.

Of course Mr Ewing doesn't care about global warming on South Fork. Carbon is precisely the problem. Of course his specialty is to cherry pick quotes to misrepresent a post. What I said was this:

Sure we will need oil to transition to new sources( of energy). However,the longer we prolong the oil boom bust cycle..eventually, and in the not to distant future it will be a permanent bust.

More carbon isn't going to solve a problem generated by too much carbon. Drilling for more oil isn't going to solve a problem generated by decreasing supplies and increasing demand because we are running out of oil.

Here our self proclaimed master of the oil patch shows his ignorance about nuclear energy...

 Distortion #2“You will notice that the US has more nuclear plants and produces more MW than any country on earth.”
No shit, Sherlock. And between Japan, France, and the U.S. we have managed to maintain an outstanding safety record. Fortunately, most nuclear plants are situated in remote locations, where they should be.

Thats patently untrue. If the safety record is so good why is it fortunate they are in remote areas..which many aren't by the way. By and large the safety record in the US nuclear industry is good...hardly "outstanding". Just a sampling:

Niantic Bay, Waterford (nearest major city: New Haven, CT; 3 miles WSW of New London, CT) # miles...why that is remote! Just some of the safety issue at this " remote" plant:

  • 1999-2000:  Repeated shutdowns dues to failures of the reactor control-rod drive system, including control rods that came loose and dropped into the reactor.  The plant operator blamed failed insulation and damaged electrical leads. (Source: OC Register)
  • Sept. 1999: Two NU subsidiaries pled guilty to 25 violations of environmental and nuclear laws and agree to pay $10 million in "fines and contributions". The charges concerned nuclear training and environmental issues at Millstone Station and environmental issues at their Devon Station in the mid-'90s. (Source: DNC Inc.'s  web site.)
  • 1997: Millstone 1,2 &3: 0% Capacity factors. (Source: ORNL 1999 NPP Analysis, Appendix E-3)
  • 1996: Labor Day Weekend: unknowingly displaced water from reactor vessel with nitrogen. “A close call!
  • Aug5<sup>th</sup>,1993: Leak causes shutdown at Millstone; 
  • Aug,16<sup>th</sup>,1991: Eight control rods show delays in emergency shutdown insertion time at Millstone; 
  • Apr 3<sup>rd</sup>,1988: Leakage at Millstone

Buchanan ( Indian Point), Westchester County (nearest major city: White Plains, NY. New York City, the greatest city in the world, Pop 8250567 is just 24  miles S of Indian Point.) Just a second or two as the neutron flies...

  • Built on an active earthquake fault.  Ran for 12 years on a “provisional” license.  Site failed 5 of 6 1979 NRC rules, however this previous license grandfathered in the next two plants at the site
  • Dec. 03, 2001: - A majority of Unit 2 control room operators (4 out of 7 crews; 10 individual operators) were unable to properly solve simulated emergencies that, had they been real, would have resulted in reactor damage or the release of radiation into the atmosphere.  (Source: TheJournalNews.com )
  • Feb., 2000:  Steam generator tube ruptures at Unit 2, contaminating 19,000 gallons of cooling water and releasing radioactive steam into the atmosphere. (Source: OC Register) Plant stays closed for 1 year. (Source: NY Times, Dec. 8<sup>th</sup>, 2001.)

    Nov. 1993: Two original safety valves at IP3 found to be insufficiently rated; in the rush to replace them before an upcoming NRC inspection, engineers install them backwards, blocking both cooling systems and disabling backup generators.

  • Scriba (nearest major city: Syracuse, NY; 6 miles NE of Oswego, NY)

  • Late 1990s:  Cracking in the reactor's internals has made NM1 "the worst case of cracking in the nuclear industry" (Union of Concerned Scientists).  Most attention has focused on the core shroud, but other cracked pieces (emergency condensers, main drain line, control rod stub tubes) suggest the problem is pervasive.

    1979 - 1996: Systemic mismanagement at NM1 result in ~200 cited violations or nearly 1/month. 

  • 1987 ­ 1989: NRC shuts NM1 for over 2 years after NiMo revealed they had covered up huge waste-handling problems at NM1.  For years, the waste building was flooded with 40,000 gallons of primary coolant water; three months prior to that announcement, NM1 dumped 50,000 gallons of coolant directly from the reactor into Lake Ontario. 

Hutchinson Island (12 miles S.E. of Ft. Pierce SMSA 381,033; nearest major city: West Palm Beach, SMSA 357,000 )
Cowans Ford Dam, Huntersville (17 miles N of Charlotte, NC (nearest major city)Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, NC-SC had a population of 2191604)
Daisy (10 miles NE of Chattanooga, TN Pop 155,554(nearest major city))


What I said was this:

You will  notice that the US has more nuc plants and produces more MW than any country on earth.( Second column is plant under construction)

France population 61,875,822  per capita generation 978.11

US population 301,139,947 per capita generation 2991.68

 And heres the point of the whole paragraph:

So we  use a shit load more electricity per capita than they do...

US: 13,351.067 kWh per capita

France 7,899.736 kWh per capita

Also only 1.9% of our electric generation comes from oil....smaller cars...less petro based packaging all that stuff we could go along way to reducing oil usage.

Duh...Sherlock

 

Distortion # 3 Spoken like a guy who has never calculated an energy balance equation, and who doesn’t understand the concept of an energy sink. Ethanol process will always suck up more money and more energy than it will ever produce, no matter what is bubbling in the mash.

I understand perfectly the concept of an energy sink...responding to your posts is a good example. Like I said in the original post,corn based ethanol yield is very close to the energy put in( not a very good solution). However your quote is spoken like a guy who has already made up his mind...and does no research. 

Cellulosic ethanol is made from the byproducts of harvested grains, cane, wood...things we have already invested energy in to get the main product. Cellulosic ethanol is made from the waste.That's why cellulosic ethanol yields 80 percent more energy than is required to grow and convert it.

But to answer your question I have calculated plenty of "energy balance equations"...running naval engineering plants.

We captured data continiuusly to determine the efficiency of the plant. And analogous to cellulosic ethanol process, naval vessels capture waste heat from the main driver either steam, nuclear or gas turbine and use it for distilling water, driving aux pumps...things like that...it makes the plant more efficent. So bite me.

by MRFred on 07/21/2008 07:32:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Whaling actually worked out quite well for that captain...can't remember his name though. Captain Arab or something??*








*Yeah, I know

by Tom Hanc on 07/15/2008 06:30:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]