I am surprised to see your comments on this subject.  Cenk has expressed blatant sexism ever since I started listening to The Young Turks -- and you have tolerated it, usually without comment or protest, even when it has been personally demeaning to you.  Yet I have heard you, albeit infrequently, refer to yourself as at least somewhat liberated.  In fact, you also have participated in conversations which objectify women, portraying them as of interest solely as sexual objects.  Cenk's offensive comments are often followed by your twittering giggle, and a mildly humorous rejoinder.  While I contend that women who are interesting only because of their sexual behavior are not, in fact, interesting at all, you help to promote the idea that they are.

You weaken liberation, and serve to belittle women.

I had three very close female friends in high school in high school (68-72) who collectively trained who were the first "liberated" women that I knew.  Although they were just learning about women's liberation themselves, they made sure that I learned.  It wasn't a difficult lesson, because thinking about other people being equal to me in all significant matters (and ignoring the relatively insignificant issues such as physical ability) came very easy to me.  But many other people persist in carrying forward older views of women as weak, manipulatable, relatively unintelligent, and primarily sexual.

These ideas retard our intellectual evolution.

I am not sure, but I could be persuaded that Cenk makes his sexist remarks not because he fully believes them but because he thinks they're entertaining.  Some people undoubtedly are entertained by those remarks.  But I'm not one of them, and I would be pleased if you examined your own sexist attitudes for possible redress.

One good place to start would be taking a hard look at the content of the third hour of the show.

The way that women achieved what equality they have is because they took it, not because men finally began to recognize their unjust attitudes.  While a lot of men do work to reform their personal sexist attitudes, no one who wants their freedom can or should depend upon their oppressor to see the evil of their ways and change.  If you want your freedom you have to take it.  Otherwise, you won't get it.

A case in point was the Equal Rights Amendment.  Legally, it was unnecessary.  The equal protection clause of the Constitution confers upon women rights equal to those of men.  But a lot of people don't realize that establishing women's equality under the law wasn't the purpose of the ERA; it was, instead, to adjust people's attitudes.  But the sexists -- both male and female -- prevailed in that battle.  As a result, even at this late date, Cenk finds a wide audience for his sexist humor.

While sexuality certainly is a pleasant topic for discussion,  I hope that the staff at TYT learns that their distinguishably sexist comments not only are not "progressive" but serve to weaken the efforts of true progressives to create a more just society.

 

by EveningStarNM on 01/24/2009 03:06:42 PM EST

She sure is powerful.

Men and women are not born with a natural understanding of each other. There's always going to be friction.

Calling Ana someone who "weaken[s] the efforts of true progressives to create a more just society" because her experience with the sexes is different from yours is silly.

What other positions disqualify you from being a "true progressive"?

by YuryTheEnglishTutor on 01/25/2009 12:08:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I always enjoy a good debate and welcome challenges to my ideas.  Sadly, you offer no such challenge.

Your second sentence alone fails on at least three counts:

(1) People are not born with prejudices.  They learn them.  This is a widely-accepted principle following many formal studies of the issue.

(2) To say that people are not born with a natural understanding of <fill-in-the-blank> is a useless statement, because people are not born with a natural understanding of anything at all.

(3) The "friction" of which you speak is not an obvious consequence of the existence of two sexes.  To say that it is requires a logical argument to support that conclusion, and as far as I know none has ever been presented.  You certainly fail to present one here.  You don't even bother to define that "friction".

The argumentative flaws in the rest of your post are equally atrocious.  Given that you just complimented a post by Ana where she complains that the person to whom she was replying was putting words in her mouth, I am surprised to find you attempting to do the same thing to me, although I doubt that you are aware that you did so.  What is worse, however, is that you fail to present a case that what I said was "silly", making your claim null and void.  While it's possible that you deliberately misconstrued what I said in a weak attempt to raise an argument, doing so simply makes you look ignorant.  Your claim has no substance.

But that isn't the worst part of your reply:  The ridiculous non-sequitur of your final sentence is baffling, and indicative that you may be incapable of being interesting in a discussion of any issue. You're welcome, of course, to try again, but only if you can present a real argument with some meat to it.  But so far, you're unimpressive.

 

by EveningStarNM on 01/25/2009 01:03:43 AM EST

[ Parent ]

In your ultimate paragraph, you said, "While sexuality certainly is a pleasant topic for discussion,  I hope that the staff at TYT learns that their distinguishably sexist comments not only are not "progressive" but serve to weaken the efforts of true progressives to create a more just society." I inferred from this statement that those who make sexist comments are not true progressives. Who judges what is and is not sexist? I also wanted to know if other things disqualify you. I like guns; does this make me a false progressive?

In your penultimate paragraph you summarize my failings. I'm not an objective judge, so let's move on.

(3)Friction is inevitable because men and women are different in today's world, and it takes significant effort to understand that which is different from you. The difference is there now, so the friction is inevitable.

(2)True, but I figured out lots of things rather easily. Those were things that were consistent, so I simply had to learn the rules and follow them. People, however, are all different, so there are no rules to learn. Therefore, I can reach a natural understanding of math, basketball, or fish, yet am often confused by women.

(1)This is the issue at its core. If the world as a whole today was fair and just, then everyone would be raised with empathy for the opposite sex, and this would be a non-issue. However, we are nowhere near there yet; society itself imprints the prejudices, though one can obviously transcend them.

None of this is the point. There is nothing wrong with making jokes about women, possible even sexist jokes. That is not sexism; that is naughty humor. Sexism is serious. It's half the women in South Africa being raped within their lifetime; it's male college graduates climbing ladders while the girls type and take dictation; it's my mom working a shitty job for ten years while a man would have been made management long ago.

P.S. This reads for more harshly than it sounds when I speak it; I'm not trying to be an anonymous internet asshole.

by YuryTheEnglishTutor on 01/27/2009 03:25:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]

What "disqualifies" me?  Trying to squeeze a contextual meaning out of that sentence is enough to make me want to ignore you.  But asking "who judges what is and is not sexist" is much worse than silly.  It makes me wonder if you know what sexism is. Sexism is "behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex" (see Merriam-Webster).  That's actually a pretty objectively measurable criterion for anyone who has any sense at all.

Clearly, I have no idea what kinds of relationships you've had with women, but I experience no "friction" (which you force me to define for myself) in 95% of my relationships with women, which is the same as the amount of "friction" that I experience in my relationships with men.  Perhaps your problems are due to some personality conflicts with women that you are unable to resolve.  I am inclined to place the responsibility for such "friction" on you, individually, than on the fact of the existence of two sexes.  To do otherwise would be to say that you are not responsible for your behavior.

That is simple logic, and unassailable.  (Therefore, it's a sure bet that you'll try to waste more of my time by trying.)

I'm sorry, but I just can't give you any more of my time.  You ended by saying that a sexist joke isn't sexist.  You are thereby disqualified from being taken seriously.  And just so you don't wonder if I'm trying to be an anonymous internet asshole by being harsh in my criticism of your terribly weak and self-contradictory position, my name is David Dickinson, and I stand by my comments.

by EveningStarNM on 01/30/2009 09:05:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]

So because you have rarely had problems with the opposite sex, it must therefore be true that no such problems exist?

You are the exception, not the rule. Most people have trouble with the opposite sex. It's because boys and girls are different. Again, they are often different because society raises them to be different, but they are different nonetheless.

My original point has not changed. You said Cenk was hurting real progressives with his sexist humor. I disagree, because I don't think sexism is humor. Rather, I think sexism is a behind-closed-doors thing.

by YuryTheEnglishTutor on 02/03/2009 03:55:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]