Do Women LIKE to Be Lied To? | 94 comments (94 topical, 0 hidden)
Le sigh. (none / 0)

None of what I've said is computing for you.  You've proven my point once again but don't realize it.  You take one little sentence from my post (out of context too, mind you) and ignore the rest.

A person dressed as a firefighter (identifying them for their given job) is far different from a woman dressed in random clothing (something she happens to be wearing at the time).  It's a bad metaphor that doesn't fit.

I have certain expectations for a person in firefighter gear.  Just like I have certain expectations of a person in a police uniform, or a nurse outfit, or an astronaut outfit.  It's their job.  It's discrimination based on inoffensive notions.

If you have certain expectations for a random person in a low-cut shirt, and base your treatment of them on what they're wearing... I don't even want to talk to you.  It's ridiculous.  If you'd like, we could go back to the "if she didn't want to be raped..." quote I spoke about in the initial post.  She wanted it right?  Or she wouldn't have worn that clothing.  She should be "prepared for SOME people to treat" her as if she wants to be raped if she's going to dress so provocatively.

Le sigh.

It isn't her fault.  It's my fault.  It isn't her fault.  It's my fault.  Repeat that in your head ad infinitum.

As for your silly example of a person running from a bank with a mask on.  Oh yes, somebody we assume committed a crime and with whom we are about to call the police on is definitely related to a bunch of horny pathetic men making rude comments to a woman in revealing clothing.

Please.

But hey, you have a point.  We make assumptions about people given what they're wearing.  What an incredible revelation that I'm certain nobody knew about!  Wow!

That isn't the point of contention here.  It's about whether or not you act on those assumptions.  And once again, we go back to my point of self control.  Why should women just suck it up and accept the fact that men will heckle them about showing their ankles?  They shouldn't.  They can dress however they want and not be put down by men.  Let me requote myself for the hundredth time: "It's up to you to man up, get some balls, tuck your tongue back into your mouth, and shut your mouth about it.  That's what a real man does."

It isn't her fault.  It's my fault.  It isn't her fault.  It's my fault.  Repeat that in your head ad infinitum.

by invert on 01/26/2009 07:24:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Invert, let me try to help using the FIREFIGHTER (none / 0)

When dressed as a Firefighter, anyone would fully understand that a person whose home is on fire would therefore expect you -  because of your firefighter costume, AND their current emergency circumstances- to BE THE FIREFIGHTER you are pretending to be.
The FAULT falls on the person identifying YOU for the mistaken identity and/ or misinterpretation of your outfit.  Its THEIR FAULT in this particular situation.
Why?
1. Firefighters have a very distinct easily recognizable outfit.
The above situation  is the jist of your argument.
I will also add the following
2. The person doing the identification is in a moment of emergency and crisis and does not have the time to stop and think whether or not you may be in a costume pretending to be something that you are not. 

Now let us apply this same argument to women.

A woman is wearing an outfit that you and the majority of people agree would be deemed to be "sexy".  This is the equivilent in your argument to your "firefighter outfit".

As a result of this woman wearing this "outfit", when a man looks at this woman he finds her attractive and thus he DOES WHAT?
I hope I do not have to spell this out for you....
1.?
2.?
3.?

In your arguement the man's actions based on what clothes the woman is wearing are the woman's fault (firefighter)....NOT the man's fault (person with burning house), even tho it is the man(person w/the burning house)  who is the one that is actually doing the performing/speaking/doing/ etc.... the action in question. Which is in your firefighter example the WRONG action.

The fault in the examples gets moved from the one taking the action in the first example of the firefighter, to the one who does not take any action in the second example - woman wearing clothes.

THe point is as Invert has said many times, and others here have tried to help clarify and btw this message has been said about the Taliban, and the Mullahs in Iran, and anywhere else in the world that women are forced to cover themselves because of the supposed lack of ability of men to be able to concentrate in temple or mosque, or in the street, that men cannot control thier urges if they are exposed to women at all in any way so women must be kept a home and never allowed out of the walled in compound, or if they are allowed out they are tobe covered head to toe so as to not provide a distraction to the men.  TO the MEN.

Assuming that  its OK for any man to treat any woman in the ways you are describing for any reason - least of which being her clothes is as if you think that men stop growing emotionally from when they were 12 yr old boys finding thyour eir first National Geographic or their father's playboy. AND that THAT IS QUITE OK... It is not.  And we have all seen what that kind of attitude toward woman can do to a culture and to people.

Firefighter outfit or t-shirt and jeans - if you want to be treated with respect - earn it first by understanding that both the firefighter and the woman are both the mis-seen person in the examples, and it is the ones who make the  observation of the firefighter and the woman who are the ones in the wrong and must change.





by sbandb on 01/26/2009 09:19:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
look (none / 0)

I never said I treat women this way or that it is right to do so, just that it happens, and it will continue to happen as long as some women choose to wear less fabric than my left sock.

I don't treat women like whores because they are wearing a whore uniform, I treat them the same way I would like to be treated, unless they are a dittohead, then I just try to make them feel foolish just as I would a man.

I'm just saying I can choose to wear a fireman uniform, and if I said the same thing women say "just because I am dressed like a slut doesn't mean I am one" is like saying "just because I am dressed like a Jewish person doesn't mean I am one, or just because I am dressed like a priest doesn't mean I am one etc.... the list goes on and on.... it would not be acceptable

Granted not all whores wear the same uniform, but neither do Police officers in every other city, but they do all wear something similar.

The thing is some women CHOOSE to dress like that for attention, those women are getting what they asked for whether it is positive or negative.....

I wish our society was different, but we all have roles and expectations based on our appearance and unfortunately people judge other people based on their looks here. In 20 or 30 years hopefully everyone can walk around naked or I could wear a "fuck jesus" shirt without anyone saying anything to me, but this is the society we live in for now.

 

 

by diglass on 01/27/2009 12:21:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
AHHHHHHH! (none / 0)

GAH!  No it's not the same is what we're trying to tell you!

"I never said I treat women this way or that it is right to do so, just that it happens, and it will continue to happen as long as some women choose to wear less fabric than my left sock."

The above quote really bothers me.  My angry filter reads it like this: "Hey, guys can go and heckle women in revealing clothing all they want.  It happens and will keep happening if women keep wearing revealing clothing.  I don't do it, so who cares?  Lets not do anything about it."  You've proved my point of the deflection of blame again.  And it's the mentality that many oppressive nations in the world have.  As somebody mentioned, it's the kind of thing Iran does.  Is the fact they keep their women oppressed fine to you?  Because that's how their men happen to function in that particular country.  If women don't wear long sleeved shirts and pants that go down to their ankles, they'll instantly get called out on it.  And who knows what will happen to them at that point.  You condone this?  From everything I've read by you, the answer appears to be yes.  Don't say otherwise because I am following your logic now, and you continuously peg the blame on the woman.  You'd shrug and tell me she should've worn something different if she didn't want to be treated that way.

Mission accomplished: women slapped back into their place.

I'm done though.  I really don't know how to rephrase what I said a third or fourth or fifth time.  Cheers to sbandb for trying to put it in a different way.

by invert on 01/27/2009 06:37:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Invert (none / 0)
The whole reason I started posting on this thread was to say that a lot of women are just as dirty as a lot of men are.

Just because I understand why something happens, does NOT mean I condone a GOD DAMN thing.

 I will tell you all day a woman who dresses like that for attention is going to get ATTENTION whether it is positive or negative. Women understand that some guys are going to act like that when they wear shit like that.

Should guys act like that? NO

BUT it happens.

 Quit trying to take my words and spin them, I've stated myself pretty fucking clear by now.

 

What the fuck do you want me to say? OK ALL YOU GUYS OUT THERE, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T SAY ANYTHING TO A WOMAN THAT CAN BE TAKEN THE WRONG WAY..... ESPECIALLY IF SHE'S DRESSED LIKE A SLUT!

Please continue on your little tirade sir, I really enjoy you making me out to be whatever you want me to be. I'm sad that you do not understand what "I do not agree with it" means.

If I were wearing a fucking borat g string to a club, do you think SOME women wouldn't say anything degrading to me?

Guess what? SOME Women drug guys and sleep with them, I know firsthand...

Women do the same shit Men do.

Go make a petition.

by diglass on 01/27/2009 11:46:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
A good first step! (none / 0)

Now you're saying you kind of agree with me.  I'm glad!  You see that it's wrong for men to put women down for the clothing they wear.  Good.  But we remain in disagreement about other things.

Do I expect you to go out there and protest about this issue?  No.  What I do expect is for you not to do what you did in this thread: defend the men who are in the wrong by tossing the blame on the women.  And yes, you did defend them.  You have spent vast amounts of time and energy to attempt to explain and adamantly defend your position.

Oh, if a woman is dressed in a way that makes men crawl out of the woodwork to heckle her, I say more power to that woman.  She's willing to take the heat and push the bounds no matter the cost.  Maybe one day all the women in Iran will tear off their long sleeves and long pant legs, and say screw you to the laws that the men there instituted.  Or maybe men will grow up and learn to stop being douchebags.  One can only hope.

"The whole reason I started posting on this thread was to say that a lot of women are just as dirty as a lot of men are."

"If I were wearing a fucking borat g string to a club, do you think SOME women wouldn't say anything degrading to me?

Guess what? SOME Women drug guys and sleep with them, I know firsthand...

Women do the same shit Men do."

The above quotes make me shake my head.  You still pin the blame on the woman, and now you attempt to twist the situation around the other way.  "Look!" you say, "Women do it too!"  As if that somehow vindicates your views.

The playing field isn't level between men and women.  You have to realize this.  You have to realize that women are still considered inferior to men in this world.  Let me know the moment when women become the superior and dominant sex in the world.  Let me know when men encounter the glass ceiling in their careers.  Let me know when men receive lower wages in comparison to women.  Let me know when men have to seriously worry about showing too much skin.  Let me know when there are more female managers than male managers.  Let me know when men are sexually harassed more than women.  Let me know when men are forced, by law, to cover themselves from head to toe.  I could go on and on.  If the above were true, maybe then you'd have a point.

Does this mean I'm fine with women doing the same stuff as men?  Of course not.  If the situation were reversed, I'd be ranting about this in reverse.  But it's not.  And it's absolutely silly for you to try to twist it around.  "They do it, so I can do it too!"  Ridiculous.

You don't agree with it, you say.  Yet you stay and continue to defend it.

By the way, I volunteer at a local women's shelter.  I'm already doing my part by seeing firsthand what happens when men with messed up realities take out their aggression on women.  It was her fault for making him angry, right?  *Sigh.*  This is probably why I get so worked up about this issue.

by invert on 01/28/2009 01:18:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Almost done (none / 0)

Prevention of socially unacceptable behavior, be it rape or warfare or rude sexual comments, demands a proper understanding of the circumstances that trigger such behavior. If the objective conclusion is that under certain circumstances all men will make sexual comments to a woman because of the way she is dressed or all men will rape, or all countries will go to war, there is no value in wishing or pretending that men or nations are somehow different. The value lies instead in identifying the circumstances that facilitate verbal or physical rape or war. Only then can some attempt be made to ensure that those circumstances occur less frequently, and hopefully not at all.

The only reliable pathway to understanding the situation is via objective analysis, even if en route some conclusions may be unpleasant, unpalatable, or socially incorrect by your standards.

Therefore, you must first try to put yourself in another's shoes and not just look at this issue, or ANY issue you care about from only your paradigm. That is the only way you can really solve a problem.

by diglass on 01/28/2009 07:18:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Fun. (none / 0)

You're a hypocrite.

Sorry, but it's the truth.

Read my recent post to marcusau2's thread as to why I'm being so blunt about it.  I'll give you a short summary here.  You're telling me to put myself in another's shoes.  I have.  I've put myself in the women's reality and looked at the truths surrounding why the behaviour of men is inexcusable.

You haven't.  You continue to sink into your male frame of thought, refusing to look at it in a different light.  You continue to say it's her fault for men's actions.  Thanks, you proved me right time and time again with every post you've written here, as I've pointed out repeatedly.

And do you really believe that I don't know the male condition?  That I don't know the way men think?  Of course I do!  I've got a penis too (and no, you may not touch it)!  That's my reality.  I simply choose not to be a horny pathetic excuse of a man from the herd of horny pathetic excuses of men.

I know why men are so rude to women.  Because most of them are stupid and have a superiority complex.  Because they blame the woman for anything the man does.  Because they lack self control.  Because they refuse to or have an inability to empathize with women.

Every point which I have explained in depth in previous posts.  If it doesn't compute for you, I really have no idea what I could say at this point. All I know is that it isn't me that needs to step out of their comfort zone and see what else is out there.  Oh yeah, by the way, nice job flying off on a tangent about how to solve problems in the world--which doesn't address anything I said in the post you replied to.

Dang it, I guess this wasn't as short as I thought it would be.

by invert on 01/28/2009 09:25:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Anyway... (none / 0)
I'm done, so bye.  Respect to your point of view, even though I strongly disagree with it.

by invert on 01/29/2009 01:19:45 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Do Women LIKE to Be Lied To? | 94 comments (94 topical, 0 hidden)