Do Women LIKE to Be Lied To? | 94 comments (94 topical, 0 hidden)
Late Response (none / 0)

Perhaps it's a little late to comment here but I'll shoot anyway.  In response to the original topic I agree with many sentiments expressed here in that no one likes to knowingly be lied to and the key term is knowingly.

I believe Cenk's comment can be interpreted that way or it can be interpreted in a much deeper (and perhaps far-reaching) way.  In this second interpretation "lied to" can mean something totally different with stronger psychological and sociological implications.  Willful blindness is the first thing that comes to mind.  Many, but not all, women are willfully blind to reality as per social conditioning or simply because it's easier.  For some reason the notion of plausible deniablity seems to be most applicable here.  It's almost as though the woman in question operates on three different compartmentalized levels, one level being a total realization of the truth and the second level being an altered reality where the lie is desired and comforting.  The third level comes into play when the lie falls apart and everything crumbles as a result.  It's at this time when the woman can deny all knowledge of the game and refute ever participating in it with reasoned argument due to the third level's knowledge of the existence of the other levels without necessarily understanding the details.   This is much the same way plausible deniability works in political theory except there is no fall gal in this example even though the compartmentalized second level is technically complicit in the charade and bears some of the responsiblity along with the liar. 

I mentioned previously that I believe many women fall victim to this sort of blindness but it is by no means limited to women.  In the system of courting that exists today many men fall victim to this type of compartmentalized rationalization all the time with the difference being that there is no direct agent lying to them as the lie is structured within the system as they find when they wake up one day and ask themselves  why they married the woman they chose for superficial reasons.  This sort of thing happens all the time in other areas not pertaining to romantic relationships and is simply part of the human condition.  Acknowledging it seems to be useful and necessary in a society that is built around desired outcomes versus explicit biological reality.

 

As to another sub-topic brought up here about cleavage (one that I recall Ana mentioning on the show recently) .  The poster Invert as well as Ana are ridiculous. At the most basic level we as humans wear clothes for a reason, to protect ourselves from the elements.  People that dress ostentatiously do it for a reason, they are expressing themselves for others as we are social creatures.  The concept of fashion and art for that matter would be meaningless without other people to appreciate self-expression.  Let me ask you a question Ana, when you wear clothes that accentuate your cleavage who are you wearing those clothes for?  If you answer yourself I would expect to see your life obstructed with mirrors.  There is a reason that fashion designers designs outfits to accentuate cleavage or legs, hips, etc.  It isn't for direct personal gratification.  If you think it is then  I would direct you to watch the episode of South Park where Eric Cartman buys an amusement park for his own enjoyment and bans everyone else from attending because that is who you are.  South Park example aside I would argue that most women that wear revealing clothes take indirect pleasure from the fact that they have a body that is desireable and pleasant to look at.  This isn't to say I'm advocating excessive oogling, but some oogling is expected if you're going to be reasonable.

by marcusau2 on 01/28/2009 04:18:09 PM EST

"NO U" (none / 0)
WHOOSH!  The point flies over the head of another person.

I'm not saying don't look at women who happen to be in low-cut shirts.  You're like the fourth person who thinks this is the case.  It's not. I repeat myself: neither myself nor Ana have condemned the act of looking.  Find a line where either of us tell anybody to stop looking.

Alright... let me try another route here to help people "get it".  Go out with a dildo strapped to your head, with a dirty t-shirt, non-matching pants, and shoes of different colours on.  Let me know how that feels.  Then go out wearing clothes like a GQ model, and let me know how that feels.  One feels a lot more comfortable than the other, right?  

I don't go out in my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles pajamas, though I'm sure it'd be a lot of fun.  Maybe I'll do that sometime soon.  But I know I'd certainly feel better wearing my GQ-esque clothing when I go out.  People will look over at me and give me a smile, I like that.  People compliment me on my clothing, I like that.  We like wearing what we wear because, like you said, we're social creatures and enjoy the social status we acquire because of it.  Do I, as a man, enjoy the attention?  Yes I do.  You know, say I'm in my TMNT pajamas, even if a woman makes an inappropriate comment to me, that opens up the chance for me to carry on a conversation with her.  Sex is on my mind and I'll take any opening I can to attract her.  A strong and confident man wouldn't be fazed by it.

Now, can I apply my experience, as a man, to a woman's experience?  No, I can't.  Look, men aren't women.  What a newsflash, eh?  But apparently it is news to the guys here.  You can't apply your own personal experiences as a man to that of women.  The inner-workings of the female mind differs from yours.  The world as a woman experiences it is far different from your own.  And until you're willing to accept that, this won't go anywhere.  What I'm saying is that the previous two paragraphs you see above?  They're pointless.  They don't help you understand women at all because it's a man's experience.  Just like how all of your current outlooks are inadequate to understanding women.

As I have repeatedly stated over and over and over again... provocative clothing does not imply that women want to be heckled or have inappropriate things said to them.  They don't like it, shouldn't have to deal with it,  and it's not their fault these guys are being morons.  Control yourselves.  Have some class.  You can look, just don't be a douchebag and go crazy about it.

At the end of the day, women have a lot more choice than men.  She can turn around and be banging the guy behind her if she wanted to.  The pathetic ones that won't get anywhere will be the ones making lewd comments about her body, while the real men will do the real work.

So who is the ridiculous one here?  You are.  Because you don't get it at all.

by invert on 01/28/2009 09:19:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Reply (none / 0)

First off, I never once stated that it was appropriate for a man to proposition a woman because she's wearing a low cut top or something like that.  That's a ridiculous mis-characterization of my argument, and it may be due to me not fully understanding your point.  I was referring to a dialogue between Ana and Cenk from a few shows back.  I'm not sure what your point is because you attempt to draw an analogy for me to "get it" and in the process you dismiss your own insight as you state:

You can't apply your own personal experiences as a man to that of women.  The inner-workings of the female mind differs from yours.  The world as a woman experiences it is far different from your own.  And until you're willing to accept that, this won't go anywhere.  What I'm saying is that the previous two paragraphs you see above?  They're pointless.  They don't help you understand women at all because it's a man's experience.  Just like how all of your current outlooks are inadequate to understanding women.

If this is the standard for negotiating the tricky road of gender variation then by what right do you have an informed opinion on what women think/feel as you are by your own definition unqualified to hold one.  Additionally, if what you say is true then it must logically be true that women have no clue what it is like to be a man as evidence from your own words, "The world as a (man)woman experiences it is far different from your own.  And until you're willing to accept that, this won't go anywhere."  So by your own admission women don't know what it's like to be a man who's incapable of controlling his wandering eyes. This argument cancels both party's complaints out and is foolish in general, but this is what you get when you present a specious argument.

 Now on to reality.  I understand that people dress for comfort and I can buy into the top-tier fashion lines are more comfortable argument even though I am skeptical.  What I don't buy into is my cleavage being out is more comfortable than not, or wearing a mini-skirt in the dead of winter is more comfortable than pants.  You can't pass this off to me as reality because adherents are either liars or fall so far off the scale of common human experience to be not worth considering i.e. outliers.  It's clearly about style not comfort and once again we are back to style being about self-expression and this by definition requires at least one additional person to appreciate your flair.  So ultimately, if you are expressing yourself you will be oogled so expect it.  You also may be judged as well though not by me.  It seems to be a common human trait to judge self-expression and apply a value judgment to something as one does when they browse an art gallery.  I'm not comparing people to art, but there is something about fashion that is reminiscent of art, or arguably should be considered art.  When your exhibit highlights an area that evokes sexual stimulus in males you get oogled.

Finally, It's necessary for me to say I'm not blaming women for the abuse they take from men that go way over the top and enter the land of harassment or abuse.  This is totally unacceptable behavior and a violation of a person's rights in my opinion.  I just want to keep it real as they say.  I'm all for self-expression and I am generally non-judgmental or at least make an effort not to be, but I must call things for what they are.  I also must say that it is quite possible for the most unassuming and conservatively dressed woman to have a more lackadaisical attitude in selecting sexual partners (which I have no problem with just keep it safe).  Things are not always as they seem, and I am more persuaded to attempt to define a person by their actions rather than appearances or preconceived notions.

by marcusau2 on 01/28/2009 11:19:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Not a repost Corrections made (none / 0)

First off, I never once stated that it was appropriate for a man to proposition a woman because she's wearing a low cut top or something like that.  That's a ridiculous mis-characterization of my argument, and it may be due to me not fully understanding your point original.  I was referring to a dialogue between Ana and Cenk from a few shows back.  Now, I'm not sure what your point is because you attempt to draw an analogy for me to "get it" and in the process you dismiss your own insight as you state:

You can't apply your own personal experiences as a man to that of women.  The inner-workings of the female mind differs from yours.  The world as a woman experiences it is far different from your own.  And until you're willing to accept that, this won't go anywhere.  What I'm saying is that the previous two paragraphs you see above?  They're pointless.  They don't help you understand women at all because it's a man's experience.  Just like how all of your current outlooks are inadequate to understanding women.

If this is the standard for negotiating the tricky road of gender variation then by what right do you have an informed opinion on what women think/feel as you are by your own definition unqualified to hold one.  Additionally, if what you say is true then it must logically be true that women have no clue what it is like to be a man as evidenced by your own words, "The world as a (man)woman experiences it is far different from your own.  And until you're willing to accept that, this won't go anywhere."  So by your own admission it would be fair to say women don't know what it's like to be a man who's incapable of controlling his wandering eyes. This argument cancels both party's complaints out and is foolish in general, but this is what you get when you present a specious argument.

Now, on to reality.  I understand that people dress for comfort and I can buy into the top-tier fashion lines are more comfortable argument, even though I am skeptical.  What I don't buy into is, my cleavage being out is more comfortable than not, or wearing a mini-skirt in the dead of winter is more comfortable than pants.  You can't pass this off to me as reality because adherents are either liars or fall so far off the scale of common human experience to be not worth considering i.e. outliers.  It's clearly about style not comfort, and once again we are back to style being about self-expression and this by definition requires at least one additional person to appreciate your flair.  So ultimately, if you are expressing yourself you will be observed and possibly oogled because we are sexual creatures, so expect it.  You also may be judged as well, though not by me.  It seems to be a common human trait to judge self-expression and apply a value judgment to something as one does when they browse an art gallery.  I'm not comparing people to art, but there is something about fashion that is reminiscent of art, or arguably should be considered art.  When your exhibit highlights an area that evokes sexual stimulus in males you get oogled.

Finally, It's necessary for me to say I'm not blaming women for the abuse they take from men that go way over the top and enter the land of harassment or abuse.  This is totally unacceptable behavior and a violation of a person's rights in my opinion.  I just want to keep it real as they say.  I'm all for self-expression and I am generally non-judgmental or at least make an effort to be, but I must call things for what they are.  I also must say that it is quite possible for the most unassuming and conservatively dressed woman to have a more lackadaisical attitude in selecting sexual partners (which I have no problem with just keep it safe).  Things are not always as they seem, and I am more persuaded to attempt to define a person by their actions rather than appearances or preconceived notions.

by marcusau2 on 01/28/2009 11:51:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think we're on the same wavelength. (none / 0)
My post above wasn't directed solely to you.  It's more of an extension of that other thread which has grown into a monster.

"If this is the standard for negotiating the tricky road of gender variation then by what right do you have an informed opinion on what women think/feel as you are by your own definition unqualified to hold one."

You misunderstand.  I'm merely pointing out that you can't take a male perspective, attempt to shove it into a female perspective, and expect it to align and make perfect sense.  It's like trying to jam a square block into a triangle opening.  What makes sense for guys, how we experience society and work, our interactions with friends and strangers... they're different, whether we like it or not.

My argument works on multiple levels, sex just happens to be one of them.  I could never be a Native American living on a reservation.  I could never be a homosexual man who grows up in a hostile environment.  I could never be a multi-billionaire that owns 50 mansions... though I suppose there's still time to try.  Does that mean we could never understand one another?  No.  And I never claimed that, go recheck my post if you'd like.

I am merely advocating that people take off their self-centered lenses and realize that others experience things differently from you.  We can, at the very least, try to put ourselves in their shoes.  You seem to be an individual who can do that.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with you.  I think we hold similar stances, so I'm not even sure why we're in each other's faces.  I know that there are dudes out there who will heckle women.  I've never argued against that fact.  The thing that started my ranting was the non-stop statements that the offensive comments ladies get is somehow the lady's fault for wearing those clothes.  It doesn't matter if they're expecting it or whatever.  It should not happen... as I know it currently does.  Guys need to learn to shut up and have some control.  Additionally, I don't care about the level of revealingness.  It's irrelevant to me.  Case in point: the situation in Iran.  It's somewhat similar to what's going on here (though at a vastly higher level), except they start freaking out at E&A (elbows and ankles) instead of T&A (hint: this A isn't ankles).

And I think you're in agreement with me... so yeah. :o

by invert on 01/29/2009 01:13:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Do Women LIKE to Be Lied To? | 94 comments (94 topical, 0 hidden)