Israel using cluster bombs and white phosphorus | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 hidden)
Intent (none / 1)
On this subject and on the subject of Israel/Hamas in general, I am beyond tired of hearing arguments based on "intent" (i.e., Israel's claim that its use of white phosphorus is not intended to kill civilians, so that makes it okay). Cenk's debate about this with Morton Klein got my blood boiling for this exact reason.

Intent is irrelevant because it can't be proven.

by OneHitKill on 01/05/2009 09:55:12 PM EST

disagree (none / 0)
If you want to get philosphical about this intent is the sole defining factor of morality. Is it immoral if Hamas kills innocents, yes, because they have bad intenentions. If a supernova destroys us all even though many more people will die than if people cause it, it wont be immoral or wrong, because intent is not an issue. Intent is never irrelevant, you can not pass moral judgements if you leave intent out.

by nmaks on 01/05/2009 10:35:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
True in big sense, false in small sense (none / 0)
because of the wildly different casualty ratios between Israeli and Palestinian deaths, Israel's intent has become irrelevant.

2 claims that are false IMO:

-Palestinian claim that Israel has intent to kill civilians: are there individuals/a group within the Israeli military with this intent, 100% certain. But I don't think that there is an organised top down plan to make this happen. Now I do think that the Israeli top (government + military) just don't care how many civilians get caught in the middle.

-Israeli claim that they do everything that's possible to make sure there are no Palestinian civilian victims: false or they are the most clumsy and incompetent elite military force in the world.

They have objectified Palestinian civilians as collateral damage. Same thing can be seen at border crossings where a lof of the 19yo Israeli soldiers act like übermenschen when they insult Palestinian women and men. (I get the irony and weight of the word, but I will not apologize, because the word is fitting when you see the other side as nothing more than pigs and caddle)

by callisto on 01/06/2009 09:17:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"Bad intentions" is relative (none / 0)
I don't want to get philosophical, just logical. Intent happens purely in the mind, and can never be proven. If I punch Bob in the face and then say, "Sorry, I meant to punch Jim," I could very well be lying just to avoid retribution from Bob. No one will ever know but me. Intent is irrelevant because no impartial 3rd party can correctly take intent into account when passing judgment.

Now I will get philosophical, by popular demand.

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?  

ANSWER: No. Sound is the phenomenon of vibrations in the air moving our eardrums. If there are no eardrums around to be moved, then the phenomenon we know as sound does not occur.

by OneHitKill on 01/06/2009 10:14:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
intent (none / 0)
this is a very interesting point. Many arguments could be resolved/reduced if people in general could grasp this insight. For example, many republicans embrace policies that do nothing or even enhance abortion incidence, because the intention of those policies is to eliminate abortion. The same republicans summarily reject sex education and family planning institutions that allow abortion to occur legally and safely, even if the ultimate effect of these policies and institutions is net reduction of abortions.

by hazmat on 01/07/2009 03:29:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Israel using cluster bombs and white phosphorus | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 hidden)