Too Many Morons (foul language warning) | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)
Well (none / 0)
Doesn't left and right always depend on the society you're talking about?

The way we have learned it in history lessons was that left means trying to change society in a direction it hasn't been in before (progressing society) and right means trying to keep society the way it is.

This means that extreml-left means being idealistic and fighting for aims that are nor realistic (yet).
Extrem-right means trying to go back to a form of society that has existed before.

The politicalcompass test is specifically for North America (maybe just USA).

In other parts of the world these terms have other meanings.

We agree that fascism is definitly extremly authoritarian.

The problem with the economical classification is that it's not an "important" part of fascism. It was always just something that was made up on the go and nothing that was part of the ideology.

Anyway some excerpts from the NSDAP 25 point plan:

We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens.

All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all.

Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

That's mainly what the NSDAP had to say about economics.
Doesn't sound too far right for me.

Agree with your statements about ancient cultures, but I was talking about the fact that Athen's democracy was not a system where everybody had a say.
It's not more democratic than our current democracies.

It would on the other hand be interesting to discuss if a system where every able minded (how to measure that?) person had a say in every decision.
There are some arguments for and against that and if you are interested in discussing it I would like you to start a new thread about it.
I promise I will oppose your point of view to get a discussion started. That would be no problem for me since I havent made up my mind yet.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 10/14/2009 08:35:30 AM EST

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*insert clever title here* (none / 0)
Hmm, now the version I learned in PoliSci (and remember, I'm a Brit) was that the more toward the left you moved, the more you believed that people were essentially good and would, if left to their own devices, act in the best interests of each other; while the more toward the right you went, the more you believed that humans were essentially selfish and should be restrained. Where the hell modrn Republicans (who seem to believe that people are inherantly selfish but shouldn't be restrained at all) fit in is anyone's guess.

I'll agree entirely that economics were never a very major feature of fascism. The ideaology was always more about returning to a glorious (usually mythical) past. However, some degree of merger between the corporate and public estates is considered a key feature of fascism since fascism normally directs the corporate estate (for example, think of the Nazis directing the development of the VW Beetle). Essentially, fascism subordinates everything, including the corporate sphere, to the state.

With regard to the NSDAP list, a couple of caveats: Firstly, remember that the "socialist" part of the name was a hangover from before Hitler took over and several points of that list are likewise (for example, the communalization of warehouses was abandoned) and other parts (for example, the entry about pensions) were put in there to appeal to voters with no intention of ever honouring them (in the same way as the BNP always include clauses about funding education). Apart from that, most of the list is fairly nondescript, the only significantly right-wing entry is the one that says "the first duty of every citizen is to work". Fascism tends to glorify "honest toil". Think of the propoganda posters of farming volk. Actually, think of Republican tirades about "real America", the tone isn't dissimilar (although Republicans usually don't go anywhere near as far).

I promise I'll start such a thread once I work out my own opinion on it. The thing is, it sounds great in theory until I overhear the guys in the pub or read the local paper's LTTE and remember how incredibly dumb a very large portion of the public are (I actually am an elitist).

by Ebon on 10/15/2009 08:35:56 AM EST

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Even though (none / 0)
I'm also an elitist and consider myself extremly left. Some consider that a contadiction.

To me it seems that terms like left and right are not as straight forward as one thinks.
It seems in America left means wanting the best for the biggest amount of people.
My definition was what we were told in Germany.
And the British definition seems to be different, too.

This is just another argument for my hate of people starting arguments with something like :"I as a left/liberal etc..."
Nobody knows what these terms mean and still people let them decide their opinion.

Maybe a thread about direct democracy could help both of us to make up our mind on it.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 10/15/2009 10:16:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Too Many Morons (foul language warning) | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)