Its great to get such informative responses to my blog... it allows me to expand my mental horizon and qualify my stance further... By the way, you guys really have a hard-on for Cenk man... lol... 

I apologize for the lopsidedness of the Right wingish link i quoted in the original blog. Its just that, that was one of many that was in line with my view on this topic and i didn't want to spend too much time in getting you the perfect source (no such thing). Since then, i have found many more lopsided links (some right wing and some left wing). I guess it depends on what your personal preference is and you can find backing for it one way or another.

So, instead of going to the Right wing sources i went into the left wing sources and did some research.  Instead of using Holland as an example I decided instead to use a better case study.  I came about a very decent and un biased (more leftist than anything) piece on the Portuguese case study (http://www.idpc.info/php-b in/document/BFDPP_BP_14_Eff ectsOfDecriminalisation_EN. pdf.pdf)

It examines the before and after of Portuguese  "decriminalization&quo t; of all drugs in 2001. The study is pretty good and can be used by right wingers and left wingers alike to prove their respective cases. Pro legalization folks will read this and say that this study shows that decriminalization is showing signs that it works. However, I argue that many of the successes achieved under the banner of "decriminalization&quo t; can be achieved with out decriminalization as well. 

It is important to note that drugs are not LEGALIZED in Portugal but rather DECRIMINALIZED. In short, it takes "consumption" of drugs out of the criminal realm and puts it into the "civil" realm if you will.  Drug trafficking and distribution is still a criminal offense. The main aim is still to discourage and stop the user of all drugs. However, it makes you wonder how you can justify decriminalizing one and not the other? I mean, if one of the core aims of the war on drugs is to cut the roots which is the supply then how can that be achieved by this? If on one hand you make drugs more socially acceptable by passing legislation on behalf of the consumer, but on the other hand make the seller/supplier a criminal, wouldn't this guarantee an endless demand and supply cycle? Wouldn't this ensure that the drug manufacturing base becomes even more innovative in making sure they keep producing drugs because they know that there is a continuous demand? 

One thing this report shows is that it is very difficult to get a large sampling of factual data which can prove correlation between drug related tenancies.  For example, the tendencies of drug use to criminal activities. Also, the increase or decrease in drug consumption trends as a result of decriminalization is not clear. For example, the report shows a decrease in Heroin use but an increase in other drugs (Cocaine, ecstasy,Marijuana). There are a number of factors that are listed to support the case from both directions but it is not reliable enough to make a definitive case. The report also lists the view that since 2001 (when decriminalization went into effect) it has become difficult for law enforecement agencies to distinguish "traffickers" and "consumers" because there is an additional category of "trafficking consumers" added in the legislation.Obviously, every trafficker will try to use this as a fall back defense if arrested.

Also, there is no information on the cost aspect of decriminalization. What is the difference between pre 2001 and post 2001 periods. The effect on the penal system is logical and apparent to see. There are less people in prisons for drug related charges. Well of course! However, what is the cost of enabling and establishing this massive decriminalized bureaucracy as apposed to the costs that were incurred by the system prior to 2001? The most important figure that I could not find was weather decriminalization has REDUCED the number of NEW users picking up the habit. After all, the end goal is to reduce THAT number isn't it? Sure, we can find supporting figures that we are able to treat existing users better and keep the rate of users to pretty much the same level as pre-decriminalization. But are we able to prove that we are actually significantly DECREASING the number of users (casual or addicts)? No...

So, i will leave it to you to read the study for yourself and decide.

I deduce that although some major improvements can be seen in cases concerning  decriminalization. For instance, better identification and treatment of addicts and renewed focus on going after the traffickers. Also, the increase in drug trafficking seizures and other policing successes. These improvements are not ONLY possible through decriminalization or legalization alone. Same results CAN be achieved through existing legislative systems as well if organized and actioned appropriately.  I also believe that the history of decriminalization is not mature enough to make a case for its success or failure based on data.

Some things are clear though. Decriminalization does make drug use more acceptable, it does provide freer access to drugs, it does ensure an endless manufacturing and supply network. So, in es sense what we are achieving by decriminalization is a better understanding and medical care for the current addict/user, a less stigmatized environment for the the addict/user, less crowded and financially over burdened penal and judiciary system.  In my opinion, by doing this we are merely feeding the drug world by accepting it and giving into it. It is not rational to think that this course of action will stop the long term use or supply.Sure, it will help more addicts in treatment and care but it will never stop the cycle.

P.S. I also wanted to say something to those who couldn't fathom my comparisons of a drug user to that of a child molester and the similarities the two may have. In many medical opinions, child molestation can also be an addiction of sorts (psychological abnormality caused by childhood experiences etc etc). Those who indulge in it can't seem to control themselves knowing fully well that it is the WRONG thing to do. They are obviously psychologically disturbed and that is why they are sent to psychologists for assessment and treatment. They are harmful to others obviously. Now, what is so far fetched about comparing them to drug users?? Drug users are also addicted to using drugs (we can argue an "addict" and a "casual user" some other time). They also know fully well that drugs are causing them harm. They fully know it is the WRONG thing to do. They are not only harmful to themselves but also to OTHERS. For example a mother on crack puts her life in danger and that of her children, a father on crack commits criminal acts against others while in a state or being high. If alcohol causes drunk driving accidents and deaths, so does driving under the influence of drugs. So, its not apples to oranges by friends.The two have stark similarities.

  

 

by bigdaddylone on 04/02/2009 02:38:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]

First I'm glad that you seemed to have taken some things on board and perhaps done a little more research and I think you make some better points this time round Secondly I am not aroused by Cenk.

I am however annoyed by people who make wild claims with no real evidence, actually worse than that using evidence that disproves what they are saying you can't expect me not to call you out on that.

The first link you posted wasn't a right wingish website it was, if anything, left wing but it mainly seemed to archive statistics and pulications as well as peoples posted opinions. And most importantly government documents (the ones you quoted) which are clearly marked underneath it as saying they are obvious propoganda and contain complete innacuracies. It's just ironic that the source you use to prove you point says clearly underneath it that it is Government Propoganda.

I'm sad to see that you're still trying to link child molestors in with drug abusers. Now your point seems to be they are both addicts they can't control themselves they know it's wrong but they still do it. Ok you're right they are both addictions and that would be a fair comparison but that's not the comparison you were making. You were making the claim that legalizing one is the same as legalizing the other which is bonkers.

People get addicted to all sorts of things, video games, chocolate, shopping they know they shouldn't do it but they can't help themeselves does that mean they are on the same level as child molestors? The main point was and it still is that child molestors, rapists have an addiction that inherently harms someone else where as drug addicts have an addiction that inherently harms themselves. I'm sure you can drag up a few cases where someone else has been harmed by someone's drug abuse but they are few and far between (not to mention the fact I could bring up cases of people's addictions to things such as shopping leading to people being killed) so It's not a valid argument.

 

I don't think anyone believes that legalizing drugs is going to completely solve the problem. And I would agree with you that there is perhaps not enough data to make a final conclusion on whether legalizing drugs reduces the number of drug users and there are various factors to take into account with the situations of different countries and all sorts of things. However all evidence so far points to similar numbers or lower in a lot of cases and not to mention you'll be hard pressed to find statistics were the US comes out favourably in drug usage. Now you were wondering about costs well lets look at that,

 

http://www.drugsense.org/wo dclock.htm

This website states that in 2003 $19 billion was spent by federal government and a further $30 billion was spent by state and local government totalling $49 billion and apparently that number has only got larger.

Most of that cost is on enforcing drug laws and incarceration if we decriminalized drugs that cost would disappear.

Not to mention the government could tax drugs providing a completely new revenue stream like they get from taxing cigarettes and alcohol.

As for it becoming more acceptable there are a lot of places where there is a stigma associated with people who smoke cigarettes and most people who smoke want to get help to quit. And it's a lot easier for them to get that help because there are so many places that they can get that help, quite often places that are supported by the government. The negative properties of drugs will never change whether you change the law or not, and if people are educated properly on the effects of drugs (good and bad) then they will be able to make an informed decision. The best way you can make someone curious about something is to tell them not to do it, I mean that's just human nature. So in summary and I'm sorry my replies have been so long so well done if you read it all,

 

Decriminalizing drugs would,

Save money (in the region of $49b) and even create a new source of money for the government. So on the money front decriminalizing is a clear winner.

Get rid of drug cartels (An increasingly signnificant problem)

 

Drug use would either go down or stay very similar which could be argued isn't really a categorical win for decrimanlizing drugs but at the same time even if drug use stays the same then the other two advantages make it obvious which is the best course of action.

 

Oh also one other thing would be that if drugs were de-criminalized then the government could put warnings on them (as with cigarettes) you can bet dealers don't care about telling first time drug users about the negative effects. And final thought on the same track is that a lot of drugs obtained illegaly have spurious contents mixed in with them, rat poison for example or irregular doses the government would be able to erradicate this problem which quite often leads to unintentional overdoses or poisoning.

 Phew!

by 0f course on 04/02/2009 05:32:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It would appear that you have reached a conclusion and are now in search of facts to support it. Hardly the Scientific approach to things.

When your Holland example didn't pan out you went looking for another "case" study.  The question you must research is what other factors played part in the Portugal study?

Here is one fact you must consider, for all the talk Forbes magazine  listed the 9th best place to live in Europe. I'm almost positive that they wouldn't rate a crime infected slum filled with nothing but crack heads quite that high.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 04/02/2009 08:06:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]