Has America Already Lost on the Torture Issue? | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)
I met a woman from Finland recently (none / 0)

who said something very similar. You can never go back. The US is a society that tortures. It's lost its reputation for human rights. Even if we had remorse, it would take many years for the world to trust us.

But this city on a hill idea have been a sham all along. We started out on native Americans, then brought slaves, then put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps, then committed war crimes in WWII in Japan and Germany (that weren't recognized as such because the allies won, see Robert McNamara in "Fog of War"), and on and on.

We think a lot of ourselves but we've just been in deep self delusion.

by toosinbeymen on 05/13/2009 06:34:45 PM EST

However... (none / 0)
I think there is a bit of a difference though in that, abhorrent as the treatment of Native Americans and slaves was, and what we may have done in WWII, those things were more par for the course around the world at the time.  Doesn't make it right, or justifiable, but those behaviors were commonplace worldwide, in both Western nations and the third world.  A key difference with torture is that we are not practicing an abhorrent practice that is globally accepted for the times, we are going BACKWARD 60+ years to practices that most of the world has rejected decades ago.  So while I think America has never been perfect, and the idea of American exceptionalism is often overplayed and becomes a cloak for naked nationalism, I think America has had some uniquely good qualities that we're now taking huge steps away from.

by mdavidboyd on 05/13/2009 06:48:43 PM EST

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Truer words have hardly been spoken (none / 0)
>the idea of American exceptionalism is often overplayed >and becomes a cloak for naked nationalism

but once enough people recognize this, the quicker this can be rectified and truely begin living up to the idea


by callisto on 05/13/2009 07:10:31 PM EST

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By saying that everyone else does it (none / 0)

proves that America is just like everyone else and proves my point. Our cherished notion that we are special is just justification for jingoism.

I agree that we've now gone much further and regressed perhaps to the dark ages or at least before the concept of cruel and unusual punishment and the English Bill of Rights of 1689, the English Treason Act of 1790 and its revision of 1814. Up until that time prisoners could be hanged, drawn and quartered for certain crimes.

IMHO, much of our new acceptance of torture has more to do with punishment. Sure they wanted information but waterboarding 183 times in a month sounds more like punishment to me.

The next question: how long will it be before torture is routine in jails, prisons and other correctional facilities. The tazor is being used more and more. Think of the power of torture to "correct" someone's behavior.

by toosinbeymen on 05/14/2009 03:53:22 AM EST

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Has America Already Lost on the Torture Issue? | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)