The debate on whether fascism is right or left has been ongoing for sometime. Hitler was an economic socialist, but he was also very conservative on social issues. He wasn't necessarily a populist. I think he just used the general social views of the country to keep unity and nationalism. We know many party members were pagans and Hitler himself was critical of Christian values as they interfered with his world view. One could make a rational argument that given enough time, Hitler would have abolished Christianity in Germany.


Von brunn in his book depicts capitialism as a jewish conspiracy and believed western socilaism was ideal because it took in the unique values of the west. He saw capitalism as unchecked individualism, where greed can disrupt the nationalism needed to keep social cohesion of a nation. Of course, then why would he hate the extreme left version of socialism, communism? Well, its kinda hard to understand his dislike, beyond its connection to "jewry"


You say religion doesnt matter, but it does. 85% of the people in this country identify themselves as Christian and the Religious right are pegged by the media as being aligned with Republicans. So one can't help but think that to label the shooter as right wing extremist is purely for political gain and propaganda. We know most people are not going to read anything from Von Brunns book and the MSM have quietly left out the details that show he has nothing in common with the traditional right in America.


 

by mikej on 06/11/2009 04:20:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You doubled down on false equivalence:

"The debate on whether fascism is right or left has been ongoing for sometime."

Reminds me of the climate change deniers and prior to that, Big Tobacco trying to claim we need a "healthy debate" to represent "both sides".

Hitler HATED communists and blamed them for the Reichstag fire. He crushed unions. He hated freedom of speech. He quadrupled military spending. Not to mention the fact that his initial death camps were for intellectuals, labor leaders, gays, etc.

If you want to pretend that some of his pseudo-populist rhetoric (used to fire up and gain support from the angry working class) and anti-Catholic stance cancels out the overwhelming weight of everything else, knock yourself out, I don't think anyone else is buying it.

Pat Buchanan is against unregulated free trade, therefore by your logic we can't say he's right wing.

PS---Welcome to TYT, I see these are your first few comments.

by Tom Hanc on 06/11/2009 04:38:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]

 

Thanks. I don't know why, but after 6 years I'm getting into political again.

 I had to get some help from an old colleague who I emailed earlier asking if Fascism right or left wing.  He responded that boths extremes are so close they become almost the same. Also, he asked, which version of Fascism? Italy, Japan, Germany, Spain.

There is a lot more, but this format doesnt work well to expand to such a complex debate on fascism. I assure you, it really isn't as simple as you make it to be. I wanted a simple answer, knowing full well that the issue is heated among historians and political scientist, but he gave me links that were essentially term papers with with more links to Mussolini writings to Hitlers mien kampf!

What I got from it is that these simplistic labels really need to be addressed, because they are too crude and is just an excuse to not to think about ones views and positions. One of the most common questions the average person ask “Am I a democrat or republican? Am I conservative or a liberal”

Hey, I like social freedom for all, like gay marriage, but I like small government and fiscal responsibility. So what am I?

Many would consider that person a libertarian, but even that would be challenged by those who weigh certain issues more important than others; and those singular or few stances define them. 

Bottom line, time to drop the intellectually dishonest labels.  Can we agree on that?


 

by mikej on 06/11/2009 09:05:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
help spread misinformation and GOP propaganda.

by MRFred on 06/12/2009 10:56:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I think it's quite obvious that he was a right wing nut-job. I'm not interested in a getting side-tracked by a pseudo-philosophical/semant ic discussion that misses the main point of my original post.

You Wrote: "Hey, I like social freedom for all, like gay marriage, but I like small government and fiscal responsibility. So what am I?

Many would consider that person a libertarian..."

Answer: You're probably a fiscal conservative. If you include legalized prostitution and drugs and a non-interventionist foreign policy *then* the libertarian tag would be more appropriate.

PS---I recognize that not everyone fits a phrase 100%, but I also recognize that if someone fits the core principles heavily, completely avoiding the phrases is silly and cumbersome. And I'm sorry, but there is no serious debate (outside maybe right wing think tanks, etc.) about Hitler being "left".

At any rate, it's clear that left wing extremism is also terrible (obviously), but thankfully we don't have a violent outbreak of that in the US at the moment to worry about on top the right wing extremism (the threat of which was highlighted by the DHS).

by Tom Hanc on 06/11/2009 09:22:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]

it really isn't as simple as you make it to be

Sure it is. History closed the book on Nazi and fascists years ago. There is no reason to quibble about a few definitions. The answer to the big question is clear for all to see in Buchenwald, Auschwitz, Dachau and the other camps. There is no moral equivocation big enough to blur the definition and the true intent of the Nazis.

As far as von Brunn is concerned he supported and followed neo-nazi groups, he wrote about the threat of "liberalism" and followed the nativist veiw of the Consitution that he claimed was subverted by the Jews. It doesnt get much clearer than that.

by MRFred on 06/11/2009 10:09:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You're exactly right, MRFred- there is nothing to debate. The difference here is Political Science 101 stuff. This was a right-wing extremist, plain and simple. I think you and ihavenobias are being overly nice in taking the time to respond on this one. I'm all for critical thinking, but this one is not really that nuanced.

by ProgTruth on 06/11/2009 10:50:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]

DHS sez

 

(U) Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and
adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups),
and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or
rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a
single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.

Case closed

by MRFred on 06/11/2009 10:55:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The sad part about this is none of us will ever get the time back we lost responding to this initial post.

by ProgTruth on 06/11/2009 11:16:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I would gladly "waste time" countering revisionists that use fading memory, and fallacious arguments to somehow mitigate the true horrors that right wing extremists like the Nazis have caused.

by MRFred on 06/12/2009 10:55:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]

It is truly amazing how one word, socialism,  is used skew the true politics of the Nazis. It is particularly useful when the far right acts out.

Much like the commercial about clean coal, where they harness the "awesome power" of the word clean.

I cant think of anyone who seriously classifies or equates Nazism with any leftist group.

But to quote Adolf, we can see where this misinformation comes from and its pupose:

I'm sure that Nero didn't set fire to Rome. It was the Christian-Bolsheviks who did that, just as the Commune set fire to Paris in 1871 and the Communists set fire to the Reichstag in 1932. 

 

by MRFred on 06/11/2009 05:24:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hitler HATED communists and blamed them for the Reichstag fire.

Stalin's hatred of Trotsky and his supporters does not disprove that Stalin was a leftist. Hitler's hatred of Stalin and his supporters does not disprove that Hitler was a leftist.

He crushed unions.

And no socialist government tried to crush Lech Walesa's Solidarnosc?

He hated freedom of speech.

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot hated freedom of speech. The Soviet Gulag imprisoned millions who dared to speak.

He quadrupled military spending.

Many left wing governments increased military spending in the twentieth century.

Not to mention the fact that his initial death camps were for intellectuals, labor leaders, gays, etc.

The Khmer Rouge did the same. You're not going to argue that the Khmer were not of the Left, are you?

If Hitler was such a right winger, why did he not attempt to privatize Otto von Bismarck's welfare state? Could it be because Hitler was a socialist?

by Twba on 06/12/2009 11:12:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]

 Hitler was a National Socialist. The word "National" evokes the state, and the word "Socialist" openly identifies itself as such.

However, there is no academic controversy over the status of this term: it was a misnomer. Misnomers are quite common in the history of political labels. Examples include the German Democratic Republic (which was neither) and Vladimir Zhirinovsky's "Liberal Democrat" party (which was also neither). The true question is not whether Hitler called his party "socialist," but whether or not it actually was.

The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a bitter joke. It was actually a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. Technically, private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers. It established the employer as the "leader of the enterprise," and read: "The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise." (1)

The employer, however, was subject to the frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite. After the Nazis took power in 1933, they quickly established a highly controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Like all war economies, it boomed, making Germany the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, in 1936. (The first nation was Sweden, in 1934. Following Keynesian-like policies, the Swedish government spent its way out of the Depression, proving that state economic policies can be successful without resorting to dictatorship or war.)

Prior to the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, worker protests had spread all across Germany in response to the Great Depression. During his drive to power, Hitler exploited this social unrest by promising workers to strengthen their labor unions and increase their standard of living. But these were empty promises; privately, he was reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power. Historian William Shirer describes the Nazi's dual strategy:

Hitler showed his true colors by promptly breaking all his promises to workers. The Nazis abolished trade unions, collective bargaining and the right to strike. An organization called the "Labor Front" replaced the old trade unions, but it was an instrument of the Nazi party and did not represent workers. According to the law that created it, "Its task is to see that every individual should be able... to perform the maximum of work." Workers would indeed greatly boost their productivity under Nazi rule. But they also became exploited. Between 1932 and 1936, workers wages fell, from 20.4 to 19.5 cents an hour for skilled labor, and from 16.1 to 13 cents an hour for unskilled labor. (3) Yet workers did not protest. This was partly because the Nazis had restored order to the economy, but an even bigger reason was that the Nazis would have cracked down on any protest.

There was no part of Nazism, therefore, that even remotely resembled socialism.

And TWBA is not a "classic liberal"


by Chinese Democracy on 06/13/2009 02:52:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]

This conversation has already been closed, and your weak attempt to reopen it is not fooling anyone outside of Fox News viewers and Limbaugh/Savage fans.

Better luck next time!

 

by Tom Hanc on 06/12/2009 11:22:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
This conversation has already been closed, and your weak attempt to reopen it is not fooling anyone outside of Fox News viewers and Limbaugh/Savage fans.

That's Twba's M.O. Hide under a rock until the discussion ends, then do a super-secret guerrilla comment post and pray that someone's still around to read it. He's more of a subversive than he knows in that respect.

by OneHitKill on 06/13/2009 10:16:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Between his jobs running the Cato Institute and managing the Ayn Rand website

Right. And don't forget his part-time volunteer work at the research lab where he masturbates woodland rodents.

by OneHitKill on 06/13/2009 09:53:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's ironic considering referred to me as the coward.

by Tom Hanc on 06/13/2009 12:47:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Nice try.

by Twba on 06/12/2009 12:22:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I don't think you get it. The gist of your "argument" has already been debunked by myself and MRFred. Feel free to reread our comments.

By your "logic", Pat Buchanan isn't right wing because he fiercely opposes unregulated trade and starting wars with Iraq (etc.).  You're attempting more false equivalency bullshit by cherry picking a handful of examples, i.e. the exception(s) that proves the rule.

by Tom Hanc on 06/12/2009 02:09:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
By your "logic", Pat Buchanan isn't right wing because he fiercely opposes unregulated trade and starting wars with Iraq (etc.).

Someone seems to think Pat is a libertarian. I'm sure you'll be in a big hurry to straighten him out.

A liberal person is in favor of free trade. An illiberal person is not in favor of free trade. Pat Buchanan is illiberal on the issue of trade. So are you.

by Twba on 06/24/2009 02:44:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]

http://www.americablog.com/ 2009/06/glenn-becks-solutio n-to-holocaust.html

John Aravosis of Americablog quotes Encarta:

"Yes, which party does this describe more closely:

 

National Socialism was similar in many respects to Italian fascism (see Fascism). The roots of National Socialism, however, were peculiarly German, grounded, for example, in the Prussian tradition of military authoritarianism and expansion; in the German romantic tradition of hostility to rationalism, liberalism, and democracy; in various racist doctrines according to which the Nordic peoples, as so-called pure Aryans, were not only physically superior to other races, but were the carriers of a superior morality and culture; and in certain philosophical traditions that idealized the state or exalted the superior individual and exempted such a person from conventional restraints."

 

 

Every word evolves over the eras as historical context shifts and changes. But that doesn't mean we can't benefit from a judicious and objective study of the facts of history. I see some eerie parallels in the above.

 

by Badass4Peace on 06/11/2009 09:49:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]