I would rather claim that obviously not only humans can make choices but animals too :-)

Why should homosexuality not be a choice rather than a biological determination? The "biological determination" seems to be an apology for me and why has there to be an apology in the first place? Would it be more rational to ban same sex marriage if homosexuality is choosen?

by snoewchen on 06/11/2009 05:41:14 PM EST

with animals like fish and lizards is that their brains dont really make choices in the same way. they much more genetically driven in their choices compared to mammals and great apes. what the examples of animals being homosexual shows that even when driven by mostly genetic impulses homosexuality occurs. which means it's more like being born black, asian, or blue eyed (minus the fact that those examples are inherited while homosexuality, currently has no proof of inheritance).

 

not to say that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed even if it WERE a choice. proving that it's natural is simply a destruction of one of the religious group's main arguments, that being the one where they say it's unnatural therefore it's "wrong."

by kingbane on 06/11/2009 05:49:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm not so sure that's relevant. This addresses the question of free will in a way. The degree of freedom humans actually exert (if any...i know, i know) is hugely debatable.
I'm not tryin to get a debate on free will going...that could take years, lol. I'm just saying to call something a "choice" is not really a meaningful designator.

by LadyFriend on 06/11/2009 06:05:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]

OK, I hear your second argument although the religious argument "it's unnatural therefore it's wrong" is pretty weird.

If the unnatural attribute is a rational reason for banning something, religions has to be banned foremost. Never heard about a lizard church...

by snoewchen on 06/11/2009 06:06:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I will use that in the future...good one!

by LadyFriend on 06/11/2009 06:10:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
religion SHOULD be banned cause it's unnatural!

by kingbane on 06/11/2009 06:20:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
of course, humans have dominion over other animals, so we are the only ones allowed by god to have churches.  If the lizards built a church it would be disrespectful to god.
the views expressed above are not necessarily the views of the author  
BTW, I always wondered if humans still have dominion over the lion while the human is sitting, torn up and bloody, inside the lion's stomach. (sorry for the image)

by birdboy1 on 06/11/2009 06:22:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I didn't "choose" to be straight, it just happened. I didn't sit around trying to decide who I thought was cute (before I knew what it even meant) in 1st or 2nd grade, it just was.

I've had gay men hit on me and I had no response, other than to be mildly flattered. I didn't chose to not feel attracted to them, I just wasn't.

PS---I don't think penguins sit around watching Will & Grace and Queer Eye For The Straight Guy. In other words, there is no societal pressure on them to be gay. It just is.

by Tom Hanc on 06/11/2009 05:51:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If it's a choice, then persecuting it is about as bad as persecuting people who use birth control pills.  If it's biological, then the people who persecute gays are as bad as people who persecute, say, black people.

by birdboy1 on 06/11/2009 06:02:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The sad thing is, the religious right is starting to accept (often quietly) that being gay might be largely or entirely biological. Instead of changing their ways, they've come up with a new, possibly more damaging and obnoxious way of dealing with the issue.

Basically, they say the issue is not being gay, it's acting gay. As long as you don't talk about or touch the same sex, you're just fine! In other words, completely ignore one of the most basic, fundamental drives like priests and nuns. Just pretend you're attracted to the opposite sex, and imagine a gay lover when you have sex with your spouse while you fight your shame and guilt.

And force awkward smiles with your arm around your wife/husband.

That way you can stand proud with God, just like this guy!

by Tom Hanc on 06/11/2009 06:09:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Can someone please pass along that info to uncle Pat!!

by LadyFriend on 06/11/2009 06:12:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
but if that's true, then good.  Not good that they are continuing to persecute gays, but good that they are losing ground.  From there, it's easy to yell at them about life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and force them to give more ground until their heads explode.

by birdboy1 on 06/11/2009 06:18:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Christofascist... did you just make that one up?
its a good one.

by birdboy1 on 06/11/2009 06:23:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
heard Jenene Garafalo say it on radio ages ago.


by Chinese Democracy on 06/11/2009 06:27:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
you realize that most christian preachers DO this. they pretend they're not gay, lookit that doorknob that led the huge mega church. what's his name. the guy who snorted coccaine and hired male giggalo's.  TED HAGGARD! and how many of the biggest proponents of anti gay crap are ACTUALLY gay. like ALL of the senator's who hate gays turn out to be gay.  and pat robertson... COME ON! that guy is TOTALLY gay, his closet just happens to be MASSIVE.

by kingbane on 06/11/2009 06:24:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
many a conservative frequent it lol


by Chinese Democracy on 06/11/2009 06:28:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
and preachers too. they dont consider molesting underaged boys "gay." that's considered "confusoin" by the catholic church. heheheh.

by kingbane on 06/11/2009 06:29:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
molesting kids is some skewed thing about power  its not a gay thing.

Maybe some priests are gay and molest kids

Maybe some priests aren't gay and molest kids

Child molestation isn't a  straight or gay thing.

And why are so many child molesters priests.  Are they trying to save themselves from themselves and lose?

I mean I know why so many pedophiles are scout masters.  When looking for money you go to the bank  when looking for kids you go to.... well you get the point.


by Chinese Democracy on 06/11/2009 06:36:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
when kids get molested, they have serious mental problems.  The church helps them with them, and helps them "find god."  Then they feel so good about the church, they wanna be a priest.  Only problem is that their mental state is worse than they thought it was.  they had been abused and they go on to become the abusers.

by birdboy1 on 06/11/2009 06:41:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
i disagree i think if you sexually molest a little boy and you're a man. you're gay. if you were straight you'd be molesting little girls.

by kingbane on 06/11/2009 06:47:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Ask some people that work in the field.  It's not about sex.

by Spencer on 06/11/2009 07:04:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
 There's no such thing as a gay pedophile. There's no such thing as a straight pedophile either. You're either gay or you're a pedophile. You're not both.

Heterosexuality and homosexuality are what we call 'mature sexualities.' This stuff doesn't really become latent until puberty, but when it does it's assumed that people are looking for partners with the same physical maturity level. So mature sexuality means not just that the people are physically mature, but that they're seeking partners who are physically mature.

 And so whether you're heterosexual or homosexual, you're looking for someone on your level. You're attracted to sexual maturity.

A pedophile is not.

  more info


by Chinese Democracy on 06/11/2009 07:14:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
this is semantics they have classified hmo and hetero as adult desires not related to any other sexual "deviations" but that's semantics. homosexuality boils down to liking the same sex. lookit those female teachers who are into little boys. they're obviously hetero some of htem ended up marrying the boys they "molested." turns out she was hetero just liked little boys. i think the same can be said for preachers who like little boys. they happen to be gay AND pedo's. there's no reason why a gay person can't be a pedophile. just like there's no reason a straight person can't be a pedophile. why are there pedophiles that only target little girls, and why are there pedo's that only target little boys. CAUSE one is straight and one's gay.

by kingbane on 06/11/2009 07:35:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
oh btw i dont disagree with you when you say pedophilia and rape etc etc is about control not so much sex. but the pedo's preference for males or females clearly show's he's gay or straight.

by kingbane on 06/11/2009 07:35:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It makes perfect sense

You need to re read


by Chinese Democracy on 06/11/2009 09:18:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
pedophiles dont like adults


by Chinese Democracy on 06/11/2009 09:59:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I figure we only go around once, so if that's their bent they should go all the way.   I don't mind in the least, don't see where it's anyone else's business anyway.

by bfaul on 06/11/2009 08:30:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]