The Fall of Theism | 103 comments (103 topical, 0 hidden)
Banning Religious Education for Children! (none / 0)
Freedom of thought is fine, if applied to self-determined adults (let's be honest: not everyone is, teabagging comes to mind). Children on the other hand cannot decide what is true or fake, so they believe anything they are being told, they don't have the opportunity to wander down any path of their choosing, that's how education works and that's arguably beneficial in many ways. Even the religious indoctrination had purpose and necessity once in our history.

But I strongly believe humankind or at least the apex of humankind has overcome the need for religious indoctrination. What's more important: if the children were given all the available facts and not forced into a belief system, they would all become agnostics, the most spiritual would be deists or pantheists (except the schizophrenics, but most schizophrenics are already secular anyway).

As I strongly believe (lol) that, I think of religious indoctrination as mental child abuse! I cannot think of anything worse than intentionally lead an innocent human being to believe the most absurd, far-fetched and very often confused and hateful things like christianity and islam (among others) do. But then most of the parents were raised to believe the same bs and are victims themselves.
As much as I like making fun of believers myself, I feel pity almost all of the time and I'd rather make fun of something more harmless, like eating habits or clothing or something like that.

Btw: you are absolutely right on hate crimes. OTOH: I'd consider the hate(ful thoughts) that accompanied the criminal action as a mental condition that needs to be addressed.
And tolerance of intolerance is.. uh, forgot, but it's bad ;).

by eborujion on 06/18/2009 08:48:19 AM EST

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Child Abuse (none / 0)
I agree with you to a point.  But we do tell our children "fairy tales" which they soon learn are untrue, and those fairy tales are often good teaching tools.

The real problem is when the adults truly believe the fairy tales that they tell their kids.  That's when correcting the child's beliefs becomes more difficult.

This line of thought always leads me to the conclusion that our species needs a few hundred more years to evolve mentally before we can make significant inroads against this problem.  We're talking about interfering with how people raise their children, a very touchy subject.

by EveningStarNM on 06/18/2009 10:53:10 AM EST

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Memetic engineering... (none / 0)
I have yet to rear my own off-spring but I will take the risk and raise them bs-free (that means NO fairy tale presented as real; fables and cautionary tales are just that, the kids will figure out that they're allegorical) and try to break the cycle (already started with my family's and friends' children and spreading the meme of atheism).

Mental evolution is imho just wishful thinking... Look how far everything in technology and philosophy and sciences etc. has developped so far, but the general human mindset has not changed a bit since the very beginning. It's all about tradition and education. And education always is coercion persuasion to some extent. Of course some memetic framework helps.

by eborujion on 06/18/2009 05:33:19 PM EST

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Mental Evolution (none / 0)
I doubt that many people were concerned with mental health at the end of the 1800s (except, of course, for Freud and a handful of others).  In fact, almost no one knew that such a concept even existed.

But now we're aware that mental health exists and can be measured, and (for the most part) we're interested in having good mental health.  We can even tell, in a general sense, what it looks like.

This is because of education.  As a species, we possess much more knowledge than we did a hundred years ago, and we've used that knowledge to change not only our environment but also to change ourselves.

That is evolution.  Just because we sometimes choose the direction in which we wish to evolve (toward better mental health, for instance) doesn't mean that is isn't still evolution.

by EveningStarNM on 06/18/2009 07:52:36 PM EST

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FYI (none / 0)

You mentioned Freud for a moment there.  I just wanted to mention that Freud wrote a book way back in 1927 called 'The Future of an Illusion".  I read this book about a month ago and would definitely recommend it to anyone interested in religion and psychology.  It is considered to be Freud's "indictment" of religion.  Throughout his adult life, Freud often referred to himself as a "godless Jew" which I can't help but find amusing.  This is not the only book he wrote on religion but it is the only one I have read and can recommend.  Also, its fairly short and you don't have to be well versed in psychology at all to understand it.


by marklar1 on 06/18/2009 09:50:06 PM EST

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Oh, I see, (none / 0)

 we were talking about different issues. What I was referring to was the evolution/development towards the "adulthood of humankind", where most of the people would have grown out of their petty wants and basic animal sentiments that seem to determine the course of almost all human action and interaction and act responsibly for the benefit of society and humankind as a whole.

Of course the knoledge even in the so called social fields has multiplied, but still this knowledge has not permeated our society and does not influence human conduct at all.

In evolutionary terms: some advanced traits occur in the population but they are not prevalent and sure as hell they are not dominant or advantageous over more primal behavior. Sex, fear and sapidity are the dominating forces dictating the masses' behavior (imo that has nothing to do with intelligence, even the most intelligent people act stupid in masses).

What mental health concerns I pretty much agree even if I do not know of a generally accepted definition of good mental health, I think of it more as of a threshold.

by eborujion on 06/19/2009 10:05:26 AM EST

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I'll grant that (none / 0)
If humankind will ever have an "adulthood", it appears to be a long, long way off.  But "good mental health" might include being free of identifiable illnesses and disorders.  In addition, as we learn more, we'll be able to more readily identify the disorders of the right-wing.

(I just hope OneHitKill doesn't see this comment.  He hates armchair "psychologists".)

by EveningStarNM on 06/19/2009 01:43:33 PM EST

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inability to use logic (none / 0)
is not a personality disorder.  It's just a state of being un-educated and un-educateable.  It's also very hard to educate their kids because the people unable to use logic will teach their kids the same stuff.  

The willful ignorance that is the right wing is going to stick around for a long time, and there isn't much anyone can do about it.

by birdboy1 on 06/19/2009 03:15:05 PM EST

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Sure, ignorance is not a crime or a disorder (none / 0)
It's not even a defect.  The time has long passed when one person can possess all human knowledge.  Ben Franklin was probably the last person capable of that.  Ignorance is unavoidable.  It's most often better to describe someone's ignorance without criticizing it, and then only when a person's ignorance is relevant.  I have no need, for instance, of knowledge about how to split the strands of a DNA molecule, and spending the time required to learn it would not be beneficial to me or to society since it would take time away from my continued investment in knowledge that I already possess.  But if I run across an article about DNA and have the time, I read it.

On the other hand, when you can employ logic but deny it anyway, there's something wrong.  And willful ignorance may be a sign of deeper problems.  Since the "normal" (yeah, I know) preference of humans is for more knowledge, and since more knowledge is beneficial not only for individuals but for our species, the deliberate denial or avoidance of knowledge might be considered to be a danger to the individual and to society requiring treatment.

by EveningStarNM on 06/19/2009 03:57:45 PM EST

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What I was talking about (none / 0)
Was when people are unable to use logic.  They have been taught one thing and if that thing is wrong, then their whole reality turns itself upside down.   That inability to use logic is not a disorder.  It's the way these people have been taught.  

The only way to fix it is to hope irrational people don't reproduce.(that was a joke, don't kill the idiot down the street)

by birdboy1 on 06/19/2009 04:19:15 PM EST

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Sometimes Darwin works too slowly (none / 0)

by EveningStarNM on 06/19/2009 06:07:30 PM EST

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Lack of ability to adapt? (none / 0)

What amazes me most is the inability for these people to just learn and adapt in this area.  I was raised Roman Catholic and went to a Catholic school from K-8th grade.  Before I even left that place I had already adapted the standard dogma a bit to help myself reconcile the beliefs with the reality of the outside world.  Before I received my Confirmation somewhere around sophomore year of high school I was already an Agnostic as my knowledge of the outside world and the realization of the silliness of my parish's teachings grew.  I don't really remember when exactly, but it was not long after that I was a full blown Atheist.  

I'm not suggesting everyone should be going the full godless route that I went, but it shouldn't take much critical thought to realize that even if your specific deity is real the holy books are at least a perversion of the true deity's message/identity.  I think you really have to continuously lie to yourself to take most of these stories literally.  Take what you have learned of the outside world and do what you have always done.  Just say god must have done it!  Evolution?  God did it!  Abiogenesis?  God did it!  So on and so forth. 

by marklar1 on 06/19/2009 06:21:05 PM EST

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Silly goose (none / 0)
Evolution doesn't exist.  I don't see anything in the bible saying anything about evolution.  So it must not exist.  But I see socialism.  
All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Acts 2:44-45)

Socialism is the only way to be a real christian.

Note: the views portrayed in this comment are not necessarily the views of the author.

by birdboy1 on 06/19/2009 08:49:10 PM EST

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Good find (none / 0)
I'll have to break that passage out next time I'm debating a religious conservative.  Of course, the blinders will already be on and they won't acknowledge it.

by marklar1 on 06/19/2009 09:09:16 PM EST

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I've got a whole bunch (none / 0)
Any time you're debating a religious conservative, just tell me.  I've got plenty of quotes showing how hypocritical the religious right are.

chief among them,

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. - 1 Tim 2

by birdboy1 on 06/20/2009 01:49:07 AM EST

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Correction (none / 0)
Nononononono... It's only socialism, if a) the other guy's do it and b) one of them is black. And especially if they don't share the goods. Christianity has nothing to do with money, it's all about fucking, er, not fucking!

by eborujion on 06/19/2009 09:14:00 PM EST

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Jibjab couldn't have put it better (none / 0)
the world is "Nuckin Futs"

by birdboy1 on 06/19/2009 04:30:40 PM EST

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The Fall of Theism | 103 comments (103 topical, 0 hidden)