philosophers have argued long and hard about the "qualia" of experience---the ineffable, inherent, qualities of what it means to "see the color red" or "feel pain and pleasure", and whether these qualia are the same even among different human beings.

their conclusion is that either qualia are too vague a term to be useful in any consequential discussion, or that the minimalistic, occam's razorian assumption must be that qualia are shared among sentient beings.

 

what this further implies is that the formal basis of granting rights to other entities in a system of moral philosophy cannot be based on whether the other entities are _exactly like_, _mostly like_, _somewhat like_, or _not at all like_ the entities granting the rights---likeness is a black hole of needless back-and-forth arguments that cannot be decided based on evidence.

this is why we have the above confusion about whether dolphins feel pain (or see the world) the same way we do, and whether killing a rat is "okay" because a (democ)rat is just a filthy disease-ridden vermin.

this also leads to corner cases among humans. some human beings are unable to feel pain because of neurological problems (they live low-quality lives because they constantly _physically_ hurt themselves, and unlike normal humans, are so unaware of the "pain" that they cannot take any action to avoid the "painful" situation until they damage themselves very badly). in any case, are we to say that such human beings should not be given the same rights as "normal" human beings.

 

btw, using pain (or the ability to feel it) as the basis for rights is as unteneable as the other great bugaboo that has been used in the past to inflict cruelty on animals, i.e. their intelligence (or the perception of how close their level of intelligence is to our own).

by this argument, human retards (i.e. rethuglicans) are ripe for constant abuse since it is clear that these retards have even less intelligence than (democ)rats and other such disease-ridden vermin.

 

this still leaves open the question of how we base granting rights and privileges to non-human entities. unfortunately, the answer will always be arbitrary because at some level (and quite contrary to the fervent desires of libertarians and ayn randians), moral axioms are always arbitrary at some level.

this is why it is perfectly fine to be a vegetarian and not wear fur, just as it is perfectly fine to butcher and eat dog.

the only thing (of any worth) that moral philosophers can say regarding this matter is that one needs to be _internally consistent_ w.r.t. the application of moral axioms.

for example, it is silly and contradictory to grow/ask for free-range chicken because such chicken live "better lives", only to kill and cook and eat said chicken.

on the other hand, it is perfectly consistent to grow/ask for free-range chicken because of some perception that such chicken taste better (or produce more healthy meat) than cooped-up chicken.

to each their own.

 

btw, i am completely opposed to societal idiocies like punishing michael vick for dog-fighting. dogs are property, and vick is free to do anything with his personal property and the rest of society has no business telling him what to do. in fact, dumfuck fatty-fuck americans really have no right to tell anyone else anything about morality, when they have been murdering innocent iraqi babies and torturing people, and have not yet brought anyone to justice for these crimes.

by neo on 06/27/2009 05:36:43 PM EST

Imagine if powerful/intelligent aliens landed on earth and wanted to enslave everyone and turn us into their "property". They would thank you for providing text justifying their treatment of humans:

"btw, i am completely opposed to societal idiocies like punishing michael vick aliens for dog-fighting enslaving humans. dogs humans are property, and vick is aliens are free to do anything with his their personal property and the rest of society has no business telling him them what to do.

in fact, dumfuck fatty-fuck americans humans really have no right to tell anyone else anything about morality..."

by Tom Hanc on 06/27/2009 05:48:43 PM EST

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aliens, if they are sufficiently powerful, are free to abuse humans as they would.

we just shut up and take it like good little property, or else fight back and die trying.

we cannot point to goddam pieces of paper arguing for our "god-given" inalienable rights. them aliens know more than we do and there ain't no such rights their god gave them.

by neo on 06/27/2009 06:10:44 PM EST

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lol you just made a "justification" For slavery with your idiocy. 

Compassion is not a bad thing, and while i am by no way a vegetarian, and i think peta for the most part are a bunch of nutbags.... i still have a problem with the slaughtering of a conscious cow.... 

Just cause they are dying for our food doesnt mean they should be cramped and pinned in 2x8 cells and chain fed.... they need a quality of life as well, that is just basic human compassion (you know, one of our few good qualities) to say you can do what you want with your "property" only shows that you lack some of the better qualities humans have.

There are ways to reach a agreement where it comes to animal rights.  ways to limit the animals suffering before its consumed etc.    and some practices that go to far and show a lack of compassion for living creatures.

oh and a "moral" basis (im agnostic so my morals are self taught)  if you have ants infesting your house threatning to destroy your foundation etc.... and you call someone to exterminate them,  that to me is fine... im not going to go "Safe traps" on them. 

The second someone invents a Chemical that chases ants out of your house guaranteed 100%  then it would be MORE moral to use this product over the killing....  when you have a Alternative method that doesnt harm a living creature but accomplishes the same goal, it is MORE moral and JUST to use said product over the killing.

Oh, and Killing a deer for food/clothing/overpopulatio n control = just.

Killing a deer cause you wanna shoot something and mount its head on your wall while leaving the rest of the carcass to rot = bad.

by Ectheleon on 06/27/2009 11:41:21 PM EST

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The sad fact, however, is that such moral stances have been used to justify slavery for thousands of years. Same thing with women being bought and sold like cattle. These practices are only newly abandoned. I do think there should be ethicists working to really examine why people do (or do not) deserve certain rights.
Now, OBVIOUSLY I do not condone slavery or any type of ownership over people. But, in a way, chickens and even pets are our slaves now.
My point is only that just because modern people are repulsed by the idea of someone owning another person, that is not a valid jumping off point for moral debate. I do think there valid reasons for such ownership to be considered unethical, the problem is that the same moral stands most likely apply to some animals as well.

by LadyFriend on 06/28/2009 01:01:41 PM EST

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It must be wonderful to live in a world where cruelty is moral as long as it is not inflicted on human beings. If this is what philosphy teaches, philosophy is an ass. The reason humans can be cruel to animals is only that they are more powerful than animals. If that is the basis for determining when cruelty is moral, then murdering innocent Iraqi babies and torturing people is moral. It is moral because we have the power to do it. By that reasoning, the only reason murder and torture is immoral is that the victims are human rather than other sentient beings capable of pain. In other words, the only reason murder and torture are immoral is that it is OUR ox that has been gored. Great foundation for a moral system. If philosphers can justify that, philosophers are intelligent people with their heads up their asses.

by Corpusless on 06/27/2009 08:50:38 PM EST

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That is not what philosophy teaches.
Ultimately, philosophy has taught me to question everything and to have consistent arguments, as much as possible.
To a degree, philosophy can be used to justify any position (kind of like the bible). What we should do with philosophical argument, for me, requires real world application. Not every philosophical musing should be applied. Actually, most shouldn't. But, should they be discussed and examined? Absolutely.

by LadyFriend on 06/29/2009 08:54:06 AM EST

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I am so glad, you have no say in determining which entities get any rights, because obviously you don't recognize any kind emotion outside of yourself, having no problem of dehumanizing political opponents and referring to living beings as disposable property. Well, thank dog, you did not have to judge wether dog-fighting is OK! Also, I do not want to know what your opinion on slavery would have been... Really, I mean it: I don't want to know!

Even human rights are by no means god given or natural. If they were self-evident why would there have been any debate in the first place? There is still no general consent about which humans have what rights and when to rescind them. Does that make them completely arbitrary? Of course not! Sensible considerations and reasons are employed and constantly reevaluated to grant rights within a more or less agreed upon operating social framework.

You mention actual failures of the system that need to be adressed and amended but they have nothing to do with the underlying principles.

by eborujion on 06/27/2009 11:30:09 PM EST

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Wow...i never thought I would run into a discussion of qualia on TYT!! Well done!!
I actually do think that qualia, as far as I understand the phenomena, are too vague to be used in consequentialist arguments. I don't have a great background on the subject, so I am happy to be corrected if you disagree. My only real background on the issue is a philosophy of mind course I took last semester (AWESOME class...btw). I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of ethics. As a secular humanist, I have no choice but to turn to such philosophical discussions as one source for morality. I believe that there is no objective right or wrong. We live as social animals though, so we must find some source(s) for morality/order. I'm not sure where else we could turn for analysis of such issues. I also think we can all agree that such moral decisions cannot be wholly ignored.
I agree that pain is not necessarily the primary factor. Intelligence seems more important in some ways. However, there are plenty of examples in rights given to human beings that basically undercut the use of intelligence as well. Republicans (lol), mentally handicapped, infants...there are plenty of humans that rank sufficiently low on the 'intelligence' (that term obviously needs much more definition) scale. We still endow these people with many of the same rights afforded to everyone else. There are exceptions, obviously...driver's liscences, etc.
So...what am I trying to say? I think that throughout the evolution of human morality and ethics, there has been a general trend toward expanding rights to more and more people. Not that long ago, black people and women were not entitled to the same rights as white men. We still debate rights for the rest of the world. Do we have a moral responsibility to do our best to feed all of the people of the world insofar as we can? etc...
I do think this trend will eventually move on to address some of the potential rights of other animals. Where and how such lines will be drawn, I have no idea. I am not as well versed on the subject as I should be.
As far as vegetarianism goes, I am a meat eater. That doesn't mean that I don't feel compelled in many ways to give up meat. Maybe sometime in the future I will, but so far I haven't been able to take that step. I admit this makes me somewhat of a hypocrite. I do that by a utilitarian argument, vegetarianism probably makes sense.
I also agree with you on the Michael Vick, etc. examples. I find what he did horrible, but how can we justify jailing and vilifying (sp?) him when atrocities (Iraq, etc.) are committed daily. This point I don't hold so strongly, but that's my overall reaction so far.

by LadyFriend on 06/28/2009 12:57:13 PM EST

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Like the borders between countries, rights are artificial constructs. They are useful in resolving disputes between human beings but they are figments and can be harmful. An example of the harm they can produce is Neo’s view that since dogs are property, it is permissible for humans to do anything they want to them. That is the view of the centuries-old English common law applied in most or all of the states, but it has been modified in modern times by statutes, like the one that Vick violated, that recognize some animals are sentient beings entitled to protection from cruelty.

 

No moral view can dispute that sentient beings, whether human or not, should be protected from cruelty. An argument, like Neo’s, that necessarily implies it is acceptable, for example, to torture a dog eight hours a day for a month on a whim, is immoral unless dogs have no significant capacity for suffering. Only a person with a blind spot, like, perhaps, Descartes, could believe dogs, and many other animals, have no significant capacity for suffering.

 

This does not mean that humans are morally obligated to be vegetarians. Humans are omnivores and I am aware of nothing that can change that. It does mean, however, that we are obligated to treat the animals we eat humanely.

 

The fact that the United States government inflicts unnecessary, illegal or immoral suffering on many, such as the people of Iraq, does not mean that crimes in this country should go unpunished. If, because the government is committing atrocities against other people, it is not justifiable to jail Michael Vick for his crime, it is not justifiable to jail any person who commits murder, rape, torture, or any other crime in the United States. The fact that the government gets it wrong in some instances, such as the war in Iraq, does not mean it gets it wrong in all instances. It got it right with the conviction of Vick.

by Corpusless on 06/28/2009 05:29:49 PM EST

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Again, I find what he did morally repugnant.
What you said about US involvement in unnecessary global harm is a point I didn't think of. Have/will the perpetrators be punished? It seems doubtful. Should they be? Of courssseee!
On the other hand, I do find it difficult to reconcile the fact that slaughtering and torturing farm animals is legal while torturing and slaughtering dogs is illegal. Are we against animal cruelty or not?
Perhaps lawmakers see some utilitarian argument here...we get food. We could obviously still be provided with eggs and chicken wings without such brutal treatment.
I'm not justifying Vick's crime. I am also not against him being punished. I am just pointing out how inconsistent it is.

by LadyFriend on 06/29/2009 09:02:47 AM EST

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I agree that the inconsistencies you pointed out exist. It just may be too much, however, to ask people to give up using animals for food and for other purposes. I don't think it is too much to ask that we treat animals kindly in the process, though. For example, we may never convince large numbers of people to give up meat but it should be relatively easy to give up veal. On the other hand, with regard to issues like the Vick prosecution, I think fairness dictates we must fight to achieve consistency. Obama's refusal, for example, to prosecute Bush administration officials is unjust.

by Corpusless on 06/29/2009 06:09:13 PM EST

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