TWBA is " the smartest man on TYT" according to Ken.

Generally, TWBA is long on libertardican sound bites from Cato and Heritage and short on rational explanations.

Of course when it comes to climate change the first response is to deny there is problem and claim any discussion of global warming is unnecessarily alarmist. 

Once that fails, attack the messenger by claiming a liberal wacko environmentalist conspiracy.

The last line of attack is the old fall back; "free markets". Claim if there is a problem, the invisible hand of the free market will solve It (the problem). Thats why Libertarians are buying real estate in areas that will be oceanfront in the years to come. See, problem solved.

Some reading that will is sure to cheer you up after the death of MJ:

Ive got more...

by MRFred on 06/29/2009 12:31:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Your whole list.  Maybe it will shake his confidence in minimizing the problem a little bit.

And thanks for "libertardican".  I knew he was an libertarian of sorts (of the insane variety that thinks libertarian economics can actually work), but he mouths Republican talking points a lot.  I wasn't sure how to classify his views.

by EveningStarNM on 06/29/2009 07:04:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I have read all these posts and no one is really adressing the real problems with waxman markey.  No one read it, it's gonna cost everyone more money, especially the poor, it WILL hurt industry commerce and transportation. If you think this bill is gonna help us i would love to hear of a recent government program that has helped us.  everytime the government steps in it screws up, rep. or dem.  Our government is soon going to run every bit of out industrial sector through legislation it passes.  besides, sorry to say it but the climate change thing is seeming to be debunked.  just another example of our government inserting themselves into EVERYTHING.

by nashvi11e on 07/04/2009 05:06:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Point One

You say that "No one read it".  That is false.  It may be that no one person read all of it, but we don't need even one person to read all of it.  No one person has read all of the schematics for the space shuttle, either, but it flies.

However, lots of people have read the bill and have responsibilities for different parts of it.  They also collaborate with people who are responsible for other parts of the bill.  On complicated issues like this, there is no way that one person could understand all of the issues involved.  It's simply too complex.  But when we put our heads together, we can do marvelous things -- like build the most complex device in the world, the space shuttle.

This idea that every congressman should read all of every bill is unrealistic, unproductive, a waste of time, and and unnecessary red herring.

Point Two

Yes, we'll have to spend money to clean up the environment.  And lots of businesses will be formed and will hire employees to build the devices that we'll use to clean up the mess that we've created.  In addition, we'll be creating new jobs and businesses in green energy production industries.

The fact that we haven't paid all of the costs of our pollution to date is not a good thing, and it's not fair to measure previous expenses with future expenses.  Most of the costs of our brown industries were either pushed off onto the public and onto future generations in the form of diseases and death and lost land area and diminishing species and shrinking human habitat.  It's just too bad that future generations will have to pay to clean up the messes that we've created.  I just hope they'll have the money, because we've already borrowed not only their inheritance but also their income from them, and we have no intention of paying it back.

Point Three

A government program that has helped us: Roads.  Cancer research.  Agricultural research.  Free health care for poor children.  Public utilities of all kinds that always cost less than what private providers charge.  Public education.

The private sector cannot and would not provide those services on the scale that is needed.  We already know that's true just by looking at the distribution of broadband internet services.  There are places where you can't get it because it's not profitable for a private company to provide it even though it's profitable for society as a whole to connect rural areas.

Final Thoughts

Now, if you're one of those climate change deniers, then I've just wasted my time.  Such people don't care about facts and will listen to the right wing fringe rather than to mainstream science because they have some sort of mental disorder, or stand to lose lots of money because they're invested in brown industries and are too lazy to invest in green ones.

And if you're a libertarian, then I've similarly wasted my time.  Libertarians believe that the insane assumptions they have to make for their economic model actually might be true.  The fact that no one in the world has ever made a libertarian economic system work and that no country even trying libertarianism doesn't phase them in the least.

But if you're disappointed that the bill doesn't do enough, then you've got my sympathies.  It doesn't.  But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years, and we know that we're responsible for these acute changes to our climate.  We know that waiting to fix these problems will cost trillions upon trillions of dollars more, when, for instance, we have to build dikes to keep central Florida, among other places, from going under water.

Yes, the bill doesn't do enough.  But we've got to start somewhere, and we've got to start now.  Our children are counting on us.

by EveningStarNM on 07/05/2009 02:51:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Point one

are you seriously comparing writing complicated legislation that will affect the largest economy on earth to the engineers who designed the space shuttle!!!!!  that's a lame weak argument.  first off this legislation is going to cost the american taxpayer plenty of money, after i pay my 25 percent to the fed gov, 12 to SS, 9% sales tax, $110 a month to property tax, a road tax, what the heck, my kids don't need to eat.

do you seriously think that lawmakers don't have to read legislation?   Don't they owe it to us the american taxpayers to know what they are passing into law?  Its 1300 pages of BS and they didn't want people to go digging into it thats why it was rushed.

point two

hold on WE haven't paid all the cost of our pollution yet??????  WE? i haven't polluted.  i don't dump toxic chemicals, i don't own or run massive factories that pollute the air, and our industry now in this country is some of the cleanest in the world. The super duper federal gov't that is suppose to regulate pollution is also the single largest polluter in the country. And so now we will put limits on carbon dioxide production and that will fix it. This should work great.  so we are going to shoot our industry in the foot and leave the biggest polluters off the hook? INDIA, CHINA, THE MIDDLE EAST?  If we clean up our act and they don't what is it going to help? THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE GOING TO COST OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS MONEY, NOT US.  They already have a massive competative advantage and now we are just putting the nail in the coffin for us industry.  So this is going to make jobs? What jobs?  Green power jobs? funded by the same BROKE gov't that you say has stolen our future inheritance? 

point three

Roads and infastructure are run at the state level, not a federal program.  As far as public programs go, cancer research, ok, we subsidize that, its not a gov't run program.  agricultural research?  we currently pay farm subsidies to farmers to NOT grow things, more than any other country.  and in fact without subsidies most american farmers would go broke, so our gov't program has just made them dependant. How has that helped us?  Free healthcare for kids?  are you just listing crap? you still haven't given me the ACTUAL GOVT PROGRAM.  are you refering to medicaid?  MEDICAID IS THE POSTER CHILD FOR FAILED GOVT PROGRAMS. if thats not what you were refering to that i don't know what your talking about.  As far as public education goes we have some of the worst in the modern world, so you think that is run well? Have you seen how we score worldwide?  how can you say public utilities charge less?  do companies compete to deliver water service where you live? how about electric.  did you shop around and see who would hook up to your house for less???? of course not.  so its not a valid point, it doesn't answer my question.  public utilities tend to be run well i agree.  but again its not a federal program.

my final thoughts

you can call me all the names you want but we are in our eleventh year of cooling according to a recent paper from the epa and even they have said that the lack of peer review in the global warming camp is problematic.  i guess im just an idiot because i tend to believe in science and actual hard data instead of a bunch of speculation and bad climate forecasting.  

Oh yes, capitalism doesn't work, the free market is a joke. The two largest economies on earth are free market, capitalist economies.  The UNITED STATES is moving rapidly twords a socialist economy and thats the problem here.  The government is making regulations that favor company A and hinder company B. I live in TN but i can't buy cheaper healthcare based out of GA.   Why? Because of government regulation thats why. The government chooses to bail out this company but not that one because of some buddies in the administration. You don't see a problem with this?  The free market works and it is proven to work.  We have a very high living standard in this country and its not because the government handed it to us.  What is your ideal ecenomic model? I'd love to hear it. 

by nashvi11e on 07/05/2009 05:09:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
People can't collaborate successfully on large, complicated projects about which no one person can have total knowledge because you think you're paying too much in taxes, right?

Sorry, but I was just too disappointed with the total lack of reasoning in your first paragraph to think that the rest of your post wasn't an equal waste of time.

If you can revise it to show that you have at least some familiarity with collaborative processes and management systems, then perhaps I'll consider reading more of what you have to say.

You might also consider that if we forced every legislator to read every word of these large, complicated bills rather than be able to delegate responsibilities for portions of them among themselves and their staffs, then they would get absolutely nothing done.

Please understand that what you propose would be hilarious if you weren't being sincere in your deep ignorance.

by EveningStarNM on 07/05/2009 06:54:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years...

I'll bet you're wrong. How much do you care to wager?

by Twba on 07/13/2009 08:33:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Why do you keep waiting to comment in articles after they've dropped off the radar and disappeared into the shadows?  Sorry, but I have too many current conversations going on.  Besides, any reply would involve logic and science, things that you obviously don't understand.

by EveningStarNM on 07/13/2009 03:55:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I was on vacation all last week.

My offer stands. Name your price and we'll set up a wager. You can contact me in twenty years to pay me.

by Twba on 07/13/2009 04:08:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
...if you keep standing in the middle of that freeway.  But let's wait and see what happens.

by EveningStarNM on 07/13/2009 05:08:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years...

Let's set an amount and define "largely gone."

by Twba on 07/13/2009 05:21:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research and the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC), shows the extent of sea-ice shrinkage has accelerated between 1979 to 2008 to a decline of 11.7% per decade.

The scientific community has a range of predictions concerning an ice-free Arctic Ocean in summer. Some say it could be as early as 2013 or as late as 2100.  NSIDC's projections fall somewhere in the lower half of this range. There is consensus and it is not if, but when.

http://nsidc.org/news/press /20081002_seaice_pressrelea se.html

I'm sorry that science is so inconvenient to your ideology, but,...

Well, actually I'm not at all sorry.  Your denial of these easily observable facts and fully justified projections just makes anything you have to say on the matter irrelevant.

by EveningStarNM on 07/13/2009 07:24:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But the northern ice cap will be largely gone in 20 years...

Name your price and define "largely gone."

If you're so confident that your prediction will come true, why are you so reluctant to back it up with a wager?

by Twba on 07/20/2009 02:27:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If you're not going to accept the wager here, would you like me to make the offer in a fresh post so you can get more attention?

by Twba on 07/24/2009 04:15:43 AM EST

[ Parent ]