Watching this particular clip, and the comments about it, were enough to get me to register here. 

 I'd like to introduce myself: I consider myself a libertarian, I live in Colorado, and I think Cenk's conclusion in this matter is utterly and completely wrong.

Normally, I find myself nodding in agreement with him; his take tends to be the same as mine, on most issues.

Here, though, I believe he's completely missed the boat. (No, not on Rush. He's a twit, and needs multiple STFU sandwiches.)

The guy with the gun: 

1. Stop talking about Bush. Bush gave us the Patriot Act, and Gitmo, and... well, we all know what the last 8 years have been like.  We presumably voted for Obama (those of us who did, naturally) because he's different, and, dare I say? better than Bush.  I, frankly, don't care what Bush would have done; it's not the yardstick I measure my personal morality/ethics by, and I sure hope Obama doesn't, either.  Though, to be fair, for all we know, if GW saw a fella packin, he'd be just as likely to tell his security detail, "Hey boys, tell that guy I've got one of them just like that at home."  You don't know; it was Bush. 

2. Continuing 1), Bush would likely not let ANYONE protest him, and didn't, regardless of their color, or religion. We don't have to guess about his behavior, we know what he did; peaceful protesters winding up arrested. Making this a racial issue might be a fun fap for some, but that's all it is.

3. (and I've no idea why I'm numbering these, but since we're this far in...) The guy had every right to be there with a gun. He has a constitutional right to be on PRIVATE property with a weapon, ASSUMING he's not breaking any laws. That means: He's registered it, he's passed the background checks, he's displaying it in accordance with the applicable state laws, and the gun itself doesn't violate any laws (ie, an uzi if they're banned there)

That's not to say he has the right to have a LOADED gun with him. Just that he can have a gun. :-)

4. Presumably, the secret service did a check on this guy, and verified he doesn't have mental issues, and that he's not planning on trying to shoot the President.

5. The main point people are missing: The guy isn't breaking the law. He's protesting! He's not threatening. Sure, he's touting one of the more violent Jefferson quotes, but that's a protected form of speech, as is the symbolism of the gun.  I'm surprised so many here are thinking so literally; usually, the far right hypocrites ("We're pro-life, and believe life is a truly precious thing, so we're going to kill those evil abortion doctors!") have a monopoly on that.  I don't know what this guy's agenda is, but he could well be just expressing his deep dis-satisfaction regarding Obama's policies.  That's his right.  He's on private property, and he's a law abiding citizen.  What makes America great is that we can disagree with our leaders; and thank Darwin for that! North Koreans aren't so fortunate, nor are some other not so liberated countries. (Darfur, anyone?) If you squelsh political dissent such as a guy openly displaying a gun and displaying a NON-RACIST NON-PARTISAN sign with a quote from one of the framer's of the Constitution, then what, exactly, makes us any different from them?

6. However, it's perfectly appropriate to ban just about anything from anywhere. This is the 'reasonable' part of amendments: You have the freedom of speech (which displaying a gun as a protest is more in line with than the right of the militia to bear arms, in this scenario) but you can't shout fire in a crowded theater.  Likewise, you can't bring a gun into a school, and shouldn't be allowed to. (Yes, I live in one of the counties with a nasty school shooting.  I'm VFF. This is an issue that isn't just 'happens elsewhere' for me.) You can't bring guns into most prisons now; you've got to check them.  I'm sure most of you know more examples. It's perfectly legal to say, "If you come in here, you'll abide by these rules." 

7. Yet, you can't try applying 'those' rules to people who haven't elected to be in 'there'.  I call this the Miley Cyrus point: No one's important enough to trump the Constitution, ESPECIALLY not the President.  We might enjoy the refreshing break that Obama gives us from previous Chief Executives who wanted to blow everything up, but we aren't in a monarchy.  No one person is more important than our Constitution, and laws shouldn't be tailored to any one person. There's a reason it was framed as it was: specifically to prevent someone from 'becoming' that important.  Miley Cyrus wants to make it a no-no to say mean things on the Internet.  Next thing you know, folks won't be allowed to have projectile weapons around celebrities. (And, I know this'll offend some, but, frankly, given the choice, well... I just think Jodie Foster's a pinch cuter than Obama.  He's a handsome man, but ... did you see her in Contact? Definitely would spend quality time with her.  Where was I? Oh, right... ranting...) After celebrities, we'll have to make sure that when a politician's speaking, no one in the crowd can be armed... even if it's just the local mayor.  This is a far too slippery slope.  If that man had tried to come inside, take his gun away! No question! But, one, two, three, five, eight, thirteen, or twenty-one of these people show up with guns at an Obama rally, and are within the letter of the law, then what's the problem?

8.  Even if the guy DOES want to harm the President (which is unlikely; he wouldn't be advertising that he was armed, and most nutjobs are too uneducated to know who Jefferson was, much less quote him), INTENT is not yet a crime.

9. Again, thank goodness we don't have to imagine what Bush would do. We know he was and is a wanker. Just because that crowd's got some serious investment in hypocrisy, doesn't mean YOU should.

10. Obama has class. I wish he'd gone over to that guy, acknowledged his sign, and thanked him for his opinion. Wouldn't that have been beautiful?

11. Folks, be careful with your extremes... too far to the left just puts you in the same place as those too far to the right.

(I posted most of this in comment on youtube, but, hard to have a serious discussion there.)

Oh, and finally, not everyone who disagrees with the President's policies are going to go bomb a building. (I'm not sure McVeigh even understood the shirt he was wearing. I heard his momma dressed him.) I don't agree with all of Obama's policies, and I voted for him.  Our duty as citizens is to take our elected officials to task. Blind subserviance, regardless of party affiliation, simply leads to a theocracy; God* help us all.

*Feel free to pray to the diety of your choice. The Pink Unicorn, in Her greatness, tells me that I don't have to kill you if you don't believe in Her.  Unless your diety's the FSM, in which case, her Pinkness does declare She's quite famished, and would you (and your diety) mind stepping in, just a little closer?

 

 


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/12/2009 07:06:29 AM EST

We could use more of that around here.

by bfaul on 08/12/2009 10:52:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Welcome aboard!

While he certainly should not have been allowed anywhere within 100 yds or the president while armed...as he was not...he did not break any laws and I believe the situation was handled perfectly by the SS.  I do think we need to be careful about nutjobs in the current political climate, but we also have to be very careful about balancing the risks of the damage that can be caused by a single nut job vs. the damage caused by trampling on the constitution and rule of law. 

by alphasigmookie on 08/12/2009 01:39:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I have to disagree with your sigilscythe, btw if you want us to stop talking about Bush fine, can do that but if we stop talking about Bush why can't the right stop bringing up Carter every time or talk about PAST democratic presidents? Why do you guys who claim to be not republicans have such double standards.

BTW I Cenk was not completely wrong here he was completely correct. This guy should be heavily watched and monitored. He is clearly dangerous and if you think other wise your a complete fool. These are the sort of people that assassinated Martin Luther King Jr. John F. Kennedy, etc.

You tell us liberals that we need to wake up? Get real.

by glddraco on 08/12/2009 11:26:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]

You'd have to ask the Right(™) about Carter; that's way before my time. 

The reason I encourage dropping the Bush scenarios isn't because I don't necessarily think they have no merit, but, again, because I don't think it's relevant. Do you feel that Obama has higher standards than Bush? More integrity? If so, why are you using GW as your measuring stick.

I seemed to have missed your argument here, though. Why do you feel that Cenk was completely correct? Why do you feel this guy is clearly dangerous? Because he has a gun? Because he has a gun at an Obama rally? Any time I see "These are the sort of people", I can't help being reminded of those videos from the 50s, with some nice white southern gentleman sherrifs talking about the local African-Americans.  Didn't matter if they'd done anything at all; just the fact that their skin was a darker color, and that they were there was enough to make them dangerous. 

Who told you that you were dreaming?

A nice dream would be people to put aside their partisanship, and actually have a discussion.  That was one of Obama's good ideas during his campaign. It's obviously ashame that The Other Side hasn't taken him up on the olive branch.


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/12/2009 03:52:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
While I like the way you present your argument I don't agree with you completely.  What are they supposed to do if these people start to show up at town hall events armed in increasing numbers?   What if there are 3, 10, 50?  At some point in time the statistics will catch up with them and someone is going to get mad enough to pull a weapon.   Once that happens things can escalate in a hurry.  There is a psychology at play in crowds that can override the normal restraints that an individual will normally exhibit.  I can see one of these fools acting at the loud urgings around him to make a bid for everlasting "glory" and doing something really stupid.  I don't know that it is a smart precedent to be setting.

by bfaul on 08/12/2009 05:21:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Sometimes you have to deal with nutjobs.

Just in case it got lost in my inability to be concise, I'm not advocating letting people INTO town hall meetings with guns; it's just my understanding that the guy that had one was outside the meeting, on private property.

If many people start showing up with guns OUTSIDE the meetings, and it becomes a problem, then there'll likely be a law passed that specifies the distance that needs to be kept at rallies and the like.  If that's challenged, then the Supreme Court can elect to decide if its constitutional or not.

I realize I'm terribly over simplifying here, but I'm not sure I see the problem.  Many folks seem to be saying, "Well, if it were Bush..." and as I said in my previous post... Who cares? It's like saying, "Well, if you were in North Korea...", which I admit to being guilty of myself.  It doesn't matter. We're not, thankfully. (Directed, of course, at my fellow Americans. If you ARE reading this in North Korea, be sure to thank the dedicated souls maintaining Tor and Freenet.)

This really is a simple issue.  Was the guy breaking any laws? If yes, then he should be dealt with accordingly. If he wasn't, and we're talking about this because it seems ludicrous to some there isn't a law against it, then the question is, "Should there be a law against someone having a gun in such close proximity to the President?"  If the answer's yes, then such a law should get written and voted upon. If no, then, we're back to, "The guy didn't do anything wrong."

I'll freely admit that my political viewpoint often fails; not because it's wrong, but because people tend to be idiots.  You can see on the youtube channel for this video how people break down to shouting vulgarities louder than each other, instead of even attempting to listen to anyone else's point of view.  Idiocity tends to bring down everyone's party, and usually, it's that small, very very vocal minority.

With Libertarians, the assumption is that people understand that common sense has a part in things.  As long as you don't infringe on me, I won't infringe on you. (Do what you want, I'll do what I want, and we'll not prevent each other from doing so.)  However, just because, for example, I _can_ carry a gun, doesn't mean I _should_.  

I think people are confusing this issue; I truly believe that the guy was well within his rights. I think debate's a good idea, and I think that he was stating his position, albeit in a not as often seen way, these days. 

I didn't say I thought he went about it wisely.  If more people do this, then I think we'll need to have a discussion about just what IS acceptable in a public venue.

(I want to clarify: I don't tout a gun around; I think most people who do are cowards, and really very scared of the world, and having 'a piece' on their hip is a way of getting instant self esteem.  I don't believe it's the case HERE, though. That guy was making a political statement. That's actually a pretty good reason for having a gun. Another good reason is to protect your loved ones, in your own home.  The reason folks no longer NEED to be armed when they, for instance, go shopping, is because our society's as safe as it is.  Other countries? Not so much so...)

Summary:

1. Let's worry about 2, 3, [fibonacci set] when it happens. Until then, let's talk about what actually did happen.

2. The guy did, or didn't break the law. 

3. If he did, arrest him.

4. If he didn't, decide whether there should be a law against what he did, or not.

5. If there should be a law, ... start writing your duly elected representatives.

6. If there shouldn't, then celebrate the fact that we even got to see this; if this were Bush, the guy would have been arrested, and the media prevented from evening noting it'd occured.

7. Enjoy the delicious irony of the hypocrisy of me saying 6, after berating everyone else for pulling that same thing. :-)


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/12/2009 05:59:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]

http://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=NPj9a5wvTk0

Wow. This is old (probably from '01), but says what I've been trying to say.

 


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/12/2009 06:23:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
old perhaps if you're under 25, but I used to watch Dennis Miller try to be funny on SNL Week End update way, way back in 1985 - 1992 when I was much younger than I am today.

by gatekeeper50 on 08/13/2009 01:18:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]

... between someone doing nothing more than existing in the skin color to which they were born and someone taking an action, bringing a gun to a Presidential town hall/rally -- along with signage echoing our most infamous domestic terrorist, as well as a past Presidential assassin.

by plooger on 08/12/2009 07:17:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I guess where I'm falling here is on the side of defending to the death the right of someone to say something which I disagree with, and that the guy with the gun was 'saying' just that.

As a tangent, (watching Bill Mahr always does this to me...)  why hasn't anyone seen a bunch of nutjobs showing up with guns as a solution to replenishing our depleting military reserves? I've heard recruitment's down... ;-)

That'd answer the question of "What do we do if a lot of folks show up with guns."  Give them an opportunity to really show their patriotic spirit.

Calling Jefferson a terrorist; harsh, man.  Not saying it's not true, but, harsh. 

 


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/12/2009 07:21:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
he was referring to Timothy McVeigh, who was wearing a t-shirt with the liberty tree quote on his back when he was arrested after the bombing of the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

by gatekeeper50 on 08/13/2009 01:28:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Bush irrelevant?! He's the idiot that brought us into half the mess that we're currently in. Sorry Obama might have decided to forget him but I have not.

by glddraco on 08/12/2009 10:54:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I think we're having two different conversations.

What Bush would do is completely irrelevant, because Obama is different (and, many feel, `better`, as a human being) than Bush.

We're not talking about the mess the country's in, at least, I didn't think we were.  We're talking about a guy, with a gun, in the vicinity of the President. 

Bush, almost certainly, would have flipped, and the guy would have a nice time being tortured in a rather funky dungeon, without due process.  It would quite suck for him, unless he was into that sort of thing. (I'm picturing those cartoons of Cheney, in leather, at Cagle's political cartoon index, and I think I just puked in my mouth, a little.) 

So, yes, Bush is completely irrelevant. Thankfully, we don't have to care what he'd do, because he's (and, I truly do thank whatever deity/deities may or may not exist for this) no longer president, and no longer in charge.

Now, if we were talking about WHY people are so angry, and why things aren't so good in this great nation of ours at the moment, then Bush becomes quite relevant, as do folks like Madoff.   


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/13/2009 02:23:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Welcome aboard, glad to have you.

Your points are very well made, thanks. As a fellow advocate of Second Amendment rights, I must warn you that we are very much in the minority here, and you will get some undeserved shit from the more hysterical hoplophobes. I just try to ignore them.

Anyhow, welcome aboard.

----------------

"Movement can be seductive, because it is so easily mistaken for productive action."

----From the Tao of Possum, Chapter 5 - On Truth and Illusion

by RedPossum on 08/12/2009 03:06:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Usually I'm not 'moved' so much to post.  Translated, that means I'm typically too lazy to really argue on the Internet. ;-)

 

 


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/12/2009 04:00:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
about bullshit like this is just as bad as being to far right.

HE BROUGHT A FUCKING GUN TO AN EVENT BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.. holding a sign that said the tree of liberty must sometimes be refreshed with the blood of tyrants and patriots.

I dont care how many paragraphs you write ( btw if posts get to long no one reads them.. these are blogs not magazine articles)

that dude is all kinds of fucked up .

A conservative believes nothing should be done for the first time

by C D on 08/12/2009 03:55:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
the gun was loaded.

The dude was definitely threatening something.

by birdboy1 on 08/14/2009 01:18:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
jodie foster? c'mon man! oh well, to each his own (hot celebrity)

by voodoofrnchtoast on 08/16/2009 06:58:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]