1.  Red, I completely think that you deserve the comments I have given you on the matter of gun rights.  I wouldn't have typed them if I thought otherwise, and I am not very happy to see you implying to someone else that my comments are undeserved, even if you may not agree with them.  And I don't frankly care if my view in this case happens to be in the majority here, or if my next view will be in the minority.  I am not taking my cues from the viewpoints of other people, and BTW I am not afraid of guns or gun use, and have said to you that I think Americans should have a chance to responsibly defend themselves as commensurate to an imminent threat that they face.

2.  Sigil:  I think (and I'm not sure, and I will not comment on the legacy of Thomas Jefferson here) that plooger is referring to Tim McVeigh as "our infamous domestic terrorist", not Thomas Jefferson.  And to John Booth as the presidential assassin.

3.  I am sure that you would agree that it is permissible to get extremely angry at people who are not breaking any laws.  Much of the heinous pillaging of our economy by banks and corporations has been _legal_.  Much of the scandalous relationship between the media, the Congress and the lobbyists is _legal_.  This does not mean that there is no suitable place for emotion in these issues, nor that people cannot simultaneously condemn these legal actions and also condemn Congress (or the state legislature) for not making the actions illegal.

4.  I _would_ charge this man with a crime--that of negligence.  It is legal to bring a vicious dog to a picnic where scores of children are eating bacon and taunting the dog.  And I could say "Well, I'm being responsible--I have the dog on a leash, I have the muscular capacity to hold the leash firmly enough to keep the dog from ripping the leash out of my hand, and I have told the park management that I will be legally walking through the park with my dog.  I do not wish for my dog to attack anyone."  But there is always a chance that the leash could snap, and this would lead to a situation far worse than if I had used the common sense to not keep a vicious dog in the vicinity of bacon-eating, taunting children.  In other words, the leash could theoretically snap during any walk, but this situation is particularly perilous for the hypothetical outcome of this occurrence.  "I'm a very responsible smoker, who always extinguishes my matches diligently, does not allow minors to smoke my cigarettes, does not litter, and does not smoke in undesignated public areas.  Therefore, being responsible, I feel justified in smoking while sitting on a tank of gasoline at the base of the town's water tower.  What could happen?"  The following things were/are significantly more likely to occur upon this New Hampshire man's actions.

    A.  Someone irresponsible could have wrestled the (loaded--he said on MSNBC that the gun was loaded) gun from him and used it irresponsibly.  Or the gun could have gotten lost or accidentally discharged by a raucous crowd gathering around him.  

    B.  Seeing his gun could have led to increasingly rabid behavior among less responsible people.  Not his fault, per se, but as a direct result of seeing his gun and being further radicalized by its symbolism.  Yes, I know that one person's "rabid behavior" is another person's "spirited cries of the vigilant citizenry," but I am writing this from a perspective of not being in favor of public melees. 

    C.  People could have been intimidated away from this process by the appearance of vigilanteism backed by force--even if the original gun owner did not intend this.  If, as he wished, hundreds of (even responsible) protestors had been armed, this level of intimidation would have dramatically escalated.  It may be the case that my attending an event which will give me a 1 in 500 chance of possibly expressing my voice to a Congressman whose vote has been bought and paid for by an insurance company is "democracy" and worth risking my life over, but I'd rather not have to make that choice.

   D.  Irresponsible people attending other rallies might see this video and be inspired to bring their own guns.  Does every Congressman have the same level of security as the President does?  Does every group of left-wing protesters attempting to legally utilize the same outside-the-hall space to express their views--do they have sufficient security to be protected from irresponsible people who are desensitized to the gravity of protesting while being armed?

I don't think I am being hyperbolic here.  I don't think that proving a point about extremism being necessary for the protection of moderation needs to physically endanger lives to be made.  I am fine living in a free enough society to tolerate "nutjobs."  But if we have so many of them that basic civility is threatened by force, we don't have a society.


 

by Milltycoon on 08/13/2009 01:19:00 AM EST

I absolutely do agree with #3.   I'm still seething about that, in fact.

I'm not sure I'm following with your park analogy; if you've got a vicious dog, and you're not breaking any laws, and it's restrained, then why in the world shouldn't you take it for a walk through the park? How are you to know there's a picnic there, with obnoxious brats eating bacon?

Their behavior is their parents' problem, not yours.  In fact, their behavior of taunting infringes on your right to walk your dog.  Then again, if you're one of those twits that just dig having a vicious dog to make up for your perceived deficiencies in the endowment department, and the critter breaks loose and mauls the lot of the little rugrats to death; you're to blame.  

Which, really, seems to lead into the rest of what you said; the guy was within his rights, but, what if someone had grabbed that gun?  At that point, he's part of whatever they do, because he's lost control, just like with your dog and the park.

(Is it wrong of me to want all the folks who bailed out banks to be doused in bacon grease, and tied to some trees in parks, and have a nice little Sin City scene re-enactment? My therapist says it's perfectly normal, but, there's fear in his eyes... why would he be afraid of ME? *nibbles on a piece of bacon*)

Certainly, people can be mad, and I like the 'negligence' bent; I hadn't thought of that.  Another good example of that sort of thing is to sit at a peewee baseball game with a cooler full of beer. Sure, as an adult, you're allowed to drink, but... not exactly a wise decision...

Unfortunately, the issue that seems to be really focused upon is that it was a gun. Some people have a lot of problems with folks possessing fire arms, and are using this incident to push that agenda.  Going that way, and I still think it's both a 2nd _and_ 1st amendment issue.

If we were instead focusing on the fact that it's okay to protest policy creatively, but using a weapon to do so, while legal, is negligent and perhaps just a pinch idiotic, then we're having a conversation. :-)

I wonder if Cenk's backed up a little bit and thought about it a little more.  I realize that when you feel that someone you very much admire and respect is being threatened, it's certainly cause for anger and fear. However, (and I must admit, I really should go hunt for some interview with the guy, considering the time I've spent defending 'him' (honestly, fan of the constitution, not of people. :-) ) ) from the clip I saw, the guy wasn't being menacing. He was standing there, with a sign; a sign with a message dervied from a quote by one of our founding fathers.  

That's a far cry better than some of the mindless profanity being spewed by both `sides` in modern debates, I think.

I'm surprised the conspiracy folks haven't jumped on this yet as being a big liberal master plan to crack down on gun owners.  Maybe the guy wasn't taken by the secret service because he was a plant...  *make scary ghost sounds* 

Fine; I'll come clean - the guy actually works on Bruno's security detail, and the whole thing's going to be in the next movie.  You heard it here, first... 


The essence of freedom is proper limitation of government.

by sigilscythe on 08/13/2009 02:16:43 AM EST

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