In your post above you claim "Some people who did research claim these things (like Muhammad being a pedophile or mass murderer etc.). So, while it may be a matter of dispute, it is not a lie."

Okay, so who are those SOME PEOPLE and where is their research?  You're saying it's not a lie.  And you know it's not a lie because of those "Some people who did research."  You sounded pretty sure of yourself in that last post, so I'm just asking you to cite one of those sources that you feel the need to defend.  

The only thing you seem to have any real knowledge about in this series of posts is a strong urge to plunder virgin hymens based on a feeling of disgust towards the vagina's of women your own age.  Despite the fact that you were projecting those urges on Muhammad (an historical figure you now admit you know nothing about), you seem to have a pretty good emotional grasp on the inner motives of a pedophile. Congrats!

by ilovecenk99 on 02/07/2010 02:56:48 PM EST

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You sounded pretty sure of yourself in that last post, so I'm just asking you to cite one of those sources that you feel the need to defend.  

I am very, very sure that I have read articles, some books and many internet sites critical of Islam and Muhammad, if you don't believe me or say I am lying, that is your right. Many sources I can't remember by name.

But look above in this thread, Tashi Freeman provided primary sources with links. Another site with many primary and secondary sources is to be found here. According to an islamic site here it is still permissible today to marry child brides because of Muhammad's example.

So, at what age will you sell your daughter into marriage? (before you insinuate things again: I am not interested... forcing children into arranged marriages is a crime against human dignity).


The only thing you seem to have any real knowledge about in this series of posts is a strong urge to plunder virgin hymens based on a feeling of disgust towards the vagina's of women your own age.

Of course, it had to come to this, please don't surprise me.
I am not disgusted by vagina's of my own age or older, I cherish the vajayjay at most ages that are appropriate for me, I have no interest in virgins, though... I was playing the devil's advocate when I said that Muhammad craved for younger fare. And the obsession with virgins of Muslim men is not just a prejudice.

Muhammad (an historical figure you now admit you know nothing about)

I did not admit I knew nothing about him, sigh, I said I was not a scholar, but I am well read for an infidel, trust me. I certainly  have literally forgotten more of what I read than the average American knows about Islam, many key points stuck with me, though. I can and have pointed out many positive things about Islam, even on this site, in a discussion with saad. But that does not influence at all whether criticisms of Muhammad are legitimate or true. Now read the links, Tashi and I have provided and then come back and explain to us that you can't believe them because they can't be true if they say negative things.

you seem to have a pretty good emotional grasp on the inner motives of a pedophile. Congrats!

Thanks! I was not joking when I said I am an expert in crazyness... like professionally. I can emulate and empathize with many a strange mind. That does not mean I subscribe to every pathology myself! But how you can recognize this from one sentence I have written?

Wow, so now you are the second Muslim (at this point, I have to assume you are a Muslima, based on your emotional reaction and personal retaliation when your superhero-prophet is criticized) on this site that accuses me of being a pedophile when I point out your prophet slept with a nine year old. Does that count under the defense of Islam by any means in jihad?

My main guess is, though, that - per example of your dear prophet - you don't regard pedophila as the despicable crime it is, so you can throw around such heinous accusations lightly based on one sentence in an internet blog. Shame on you!

by eborujion on 02/07/2010 04:14:30 PM EST

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I am American, raised Catholic and unfortunately experienced the damage of molestation first-hand.. I just don't like to see an otherwise intelligent debate turn into a name-calling festival...

There will always be those who can have a discourse at a respectful level and those that will turn a debate into a name-calling festival.... "your god is a pedophile", "your god drinks pee", "Jews carry diseases", "Muslims are like cockroaches" and on and on and on...

I think we need to understand the other side. Islam is not only a religion but it's also a history and a culture that many people grow up into. You can't dismiss their ways just like you can't dismiss the positive memories I have of Easter and Christmas.  I imagine your perfect world is one where Muslims don't exist... mine is not.

by ilovecenk99 on 02/07/2010 04:49:49 PM EST

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I am American, raised Catholic and unfortunately experienced the damage of molestation first-hand.. I just don't like to see an otherwise intelligent debate turn into a name-calling festival...

I am very sorry to hear that. But I have to say, you started the personal name-calling (I don't consider saying something negative about Muhammad as name-calling, especially when there is a legitimate discussion even among scholars).

"your god is a pedophile", "your god drinks pee", "Jews carry diseases", "Muslims are like cockroaches" and on and on and on...

I don't know if I can explain it to you: the statements "your god drinks pee" or "your prophet slept with a nine year old" are not on par with "Jews carry diseases" or "Muslims are like cockroaches". They are on entirely different planes! The first is a metaphysical statement, and god -as you claim to believe in- probably drinks pee. There is no way to prove or disprove that, so I can assert anything I want in that realm without it being controversial or offensive. The second, if not totally made up, is a statement about a historical fact that -granted- is not generally accepted but there is a discussion. It may be true or untrue, but from my POV, it should not be offensive to YOU that I hold any of the two positions. The other statements are totally different from that. They are provably untrue generalizations  very offensive and objectively unacceptable by all standards and by all persons. I often make a generalization that you might find objectionable. I think all religious people are deluded to some degree. I think that generalization is true, because in that case the point of comparison is equal to the point of objection (sorry, no philosophy major). What I want to say is religious belief and delusion can be equated as believing something that noone can prove and has no outside logic to it.

Islam is not only a religion but it's also a history and a culture that many people grow up into. You can't dismiss their ways just like you can't dismiss the positive memories I have of Easter and Christmas.  I imagine your perfect world is one where Muslims don't exist... mine is not.

My perfect world is where no religion exists at all and all people are peaceful and committed towards the greater good of humanity as a whole, but that is not realistic and I certainly don't generally advocate violently engaging religious people (not opposed to liberating suppressed people). So, next I would wish, there could be a world where all religious people would be reasonable. I just think that is more unrealistic than there being no religion at all. If you are open to believe something without any evidence and logic, you are on your way to believing anything you are told by authorities (or your own subconscious imagination). Even if most people ARE reasonable, SOMEONE will be radical and abuse religion to gain power. I don't want Muslims to cease existence, especially not the so-called Muslim culture (do you really think that the belief in Allah is necessary for the other aspects of the culture?) Call me crazy, I can totally enjoy couscous and falafel without believing... I think most of the cultural practices make total sense without Islam, up to the call for prayer, that could be a call for learning, a call for observation, etc. The negative parts of the culture, though, like public whippings, amputations and child abuse, I can live without and I am sure, most people could live without. So, absolutely realistical, I want for all children on Earth to enjoy an education that is totally independent from any form of religious brainwashing (if inevitable , it can be done after school, starting at earliest somewhere after the age of ten).

What you also must not forget, there is no homogenous Muslim culture, e.g. Maghreb and Indonesia are very different, only in the recent years Saudi money tried to spread their brand of Islam throughout the Muslim world with many bad consequences, especially for other Muslims, especially for minorities among Muslims, especially for women and children.

by eborujion on 02/07/2010 05:43:24 PM EST

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