cenks comment on the prophet Muhammad | 116 comments (116 topical, 0 hidden)
I am not a liberal. (none / 0)
My position is so groundbreaking and unique, noone has yet come up with a name for it.

Atheists get insulted by religious people all the time. Why should religious beliefs deserve a special treatment? A soft position on radicals leads to them prevailing. Look at the debates in Congress.

Even if you are many steps behind violent Islamists, you are on the same ladder which makes you a radical from my perspective. And, sorry, I can see that you are in most regards a very reasonable guy/gal but many encounters with more radical religious individuals have made me adapt to this aggressive debating style. See? That is what fundamentalists do, they shape the discussion.

Also: I sometimes do insult people for their convictions, but very rarely. I also try not to spread falsehoods. But all I (and others) say is out there. Some people who did research claim these things (like Muhammad being a pedophile or mass murderer etc.). So, while it may be a matter of dispute, it is not a lie.

What I often do and enjoy, though, is blasphemy and ridiculing the tenets of religions. The thing is that many believers take derogatory remarks about their beliefs very personally. Why not let their (imaginary) God decide how to punish me for my statements? Is it so weak that they have to defend it all the time?

by eborujion on 02/05/2010 06:31:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Laws of the playground (none / 0)
"Atheists get insulted by religious people all the time."

He's started it. No, he's started it...

BTW one could say that you behave like an anti-religious fundamentalist. If you want people to behave better you should start behaving better.

At least in this forum I have never seen any religious person becoming aggressive or insulting (unless in jest and I try to keep myself under control most of the time), maybe you should start to be more understanding and we could have serious discussions.

I always look forward to that.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 02/05/2010 06:48:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The whole world is a playground. (none / 0)
I have yet to see this mythological "adult" behaviour everyone is talking about. All humans act like children.

He's started it. No, he's started it...

Sorry, I am not an turn-the-other-cheek-person . I go on the offensive and stay there ;).

BTW one could say that you behave like an anti-religious fundamentalist.

Yes, one could make a case for that. I won't deny that. It is not in my intention, though, to stifle debate and deny other positions, but I want to shape the discussion, like the religious fundies do it. That is sadly the only way it seems to work.

At least in this forum I have never seen any religious person becoming aggressive or insulting

Before your time, I had an argument with a gay-hater. Does not matter. Yes, luckily, this forum is not infested with fundamentalism. But, most unfortunately, America is, and so is the rest of the world. It is a growing problem, you (meaning reasonable believers) will not be able to ignore it forever. It goes hand in hand with changing economic and environmental conditions. The more they get worse the more people radicalize and the easier they are to influence to go to war. Look how easy it was in the U.S. to stage a war of choice: the profiteers set the agenda, the religious right and the jingoists set the tone, and the rest has to follow lock and step or be (politically) destroyed in the process.

They push hard and influence public debate, if nobody pushes back, the soft middle ground will simple shift along and, e.g. the debate is no longer whether women have the choice to have an abortion but how many lashes they get for it.

we could have serious discussions.

Unfortunately, from what I have read in economic, environmental and political discussions here, I very much agree with you and Tothlike (except that he is a global warming denier), even if I am very much more pessimistic (realistic?) in that regard. The minor differences don't always seem to be worth debating. Religion OTOH, I see as a major threat to all of humankind and as its potential demise. Just remember, just because you can believe and still think for yourself in other matters does not mean your fellow believers are able to do that.

by eborujion on 02/05/2010 07:35:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The world is a vampire:) (none / 0)
"It is not in my intention, though, to stifle debate and deny other positions, but I want to shape the discussion, like the religious fundies do it. That is sadly the only way it seems to work."

That might be right when you are talking with fundies. Just as political debate is not won by thoughts, but by emotions. Talking to fundies I would maybe annoy them even more than you can (I really hate those guys, because they give all religious people a bad name). Maybe you should take care to construct your arguments based on who you are taking to. (And I should try to be less patronizing ;))
Americans have a tendency to see the world in black and white and that is going for decades at least

Democracy - Communism
East - West
Coke - Pepsi
Democrats - Republicans
Religious fundamentalists - enligthend atheists
For us or against us

This just doesn't work, as the Middle-East shows.
I always try, often without success to find the point where I can agree on with people and start to go forther from there. Creating fronts that are unnecessary is not a very good tactic, even though it can be satisfying. In fact it is exactly this kind of behaviour that radicalizes people.

"Unfortunately, from what I have read in economic, environmental and political discussions here, I very much agree with you and Tothlike"

Sorry for that.;)
I had some discussions with my Scandinavian brother that I really enjoyed, because we didn't always try to explain why our positions are superiour, but we looked if we could learn something from the position of the other one.
When you put Christians in a corner you push them to become defensive.
A wise man once said:
"Christianity is Platonism for the people"
Most people will never read Platon, but they will be confronted with Christianity, instead of using their believe to show that they are stupid it would probably be a better way to show them that Jesus (Christ, not the guy from TYT;)) was an extremly left-wing, radical socialist. Maybe this way you could convince them to join your course, instead of pushing them into the arms of the Republicans who claim to be the only ones who take them seriously.

PS: Seems we have a scaling of optimism, (from most to least):
Thothlike
opposition
eborujion
Does that mean that I'm the centrist and you two are radical loonies?;)

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 02/06/2010 04:22:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Newbies.... (none / 0)
"At least in this forum I have never seen any religious person becoming aggressive or insulting"

Yeah, you just haven't been here long enough. We used to have a couple of regulars who liked nothing better than to keep bringing their religion into damn near any discussion and then play the victim when people asked "WTF?" I think it's more than a little insulting for someone to willy-nilly toss an anti-abortion post into a thread which has nothing to do with that topic.

The ones who try to get "aggressive" - well, there are too many educated free thinkers around here for them. That type prefer know-nothings who don't have the background to argue a point (although I have found that the most aggressive are likely to be the least knowledgeable of religion arguers.). They don't usually stay here very long.

Thank....oooh, they almost had me there...

by MedfordTim on 02/05/2010 10:36:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
femynist (none / 0)
When I came first to this forum there was a poster called femynist (if I recall her name correctly) who wrote some stupid and aggressive things about emancipation.
There are more loonies like that out there, but that didn't change the way I argue with feminists. Well usually there isn't much of an agument, because I support equal rights in every circumstance.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 02/06/2010 03:58:28 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You, suh, are NO editor! (none / 0)
My post was fine the first time. What, you don't remember Troy or Acrosa?

by MedfordTim on 02/06/2010 10:05:28 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Are you insane?? (none / 0)
Anti-Israel or anti-Jewish??

Two different things, although your basic charge is without merit anyhow.

YOU are the only one afraid of some middle eastern Muslim terrorist attaking you in your sleep )or standing on your lawn...) - it's a recurring theme with you. You're scared to death to even put them on trial, fercryin'outloud! You're the fraidy-cat, quaking in fear because of some guy in a cave 6000 miles away.

Trust me - if a fundamentalist Muslim starts entering every thread to add an out of left field religious argument, he will be treated no differently than Troy.

by MedfordTim on 02/06/2010 03:16:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You know nothing about Islam... (none / 0)
and yet you pretend to be an expert.

So, let's see the historians which support your view that Muhammad slept with over 400 women and that he slept with the wives of his friends.  

Quick test - do you even know the names of any of Muhammad's friends?  Can you name even one of the people who were Muhammad's closest circle and who were his companions during his life? No,  you don't. Yet you profess to know that Muhammad slept with their wives.

So, considering your in-depth knowledge, I would like you to name some of the historical accounts you have read - whether they were written by Westerners or Muslims... I don't care. And don't just cite Wikipedia or one of your hate-sites.

You know, ignorance and hate go hand-in-hand... and if you think you are going to get away with racial/religious/ethnic hatred on this site and nobody is going to stand up to you, you're wrong.

However, I for one, am done responding to your posts.

by ilovecenk99 on 02/07/2010 02:03:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Was this directed at me? (none / 0)
and yet you pretend to be an expert.

No, I don't pretend that. I am an expert in crazyness, though.

So, let's see the historians which support your view that Muhammad slept with over 400 women and that he slept with the wives of his friends.  

Where did I claim that? Nobody claimed that btw, except the host of the show, whom you love and he was not totally serious.

. and if you think you are going to get away with racial/religious/ethnic hatred on this site and nobody is going to stand up to you, you're wrong.

"Blah, blah, blah. Islam is a race, blah, blah.." No, it is not! Please feel free to show any hatred in anything anyone of the critical voices has written in this thread. I admit to plenty of ridicule and disdain, but not hatred.


However, I for one, am done responding to your posts.

Knock yourself out. But please explain how you will stand up and not respond at the same time.

I guess, you wanted to respond to Tashi anyway.

by eborujion on 02/07/2010 02:25:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Argh.. I can't believe I'm responding to you... (none / 0)
In your post above you claim "Some people who did research claim these things (like Muhammad being a pedophile or mass murderer etc.). So, while it may be a matter of dispute, it is not a lie."

Okay, so who are those SOME PEOPLE and where is their research?  You're saying it's not a lie.  And you know it's not a lie because of those "Some people who did research."  You sounded pretty sure of yourself in that last post, so I'm just asking you to cite one of those sources that you feel the need to defend.  

The only thing you seem to have any real knowledge about in this series of posts is a strong urge to plunder virgin hymens based on a feeling of disgust towards the vagina's of women your own age.  Despite the fact that you were projecting those urges on Muhammad (an historical figure you now admit you know nothing about), you seem to have a pretty good emotional grasp on the inner motives of a pedophile. Congrats!

by ilovecenk99 on 02/07/2010 02:56:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Typical.... (none / 0)
You sounded pretty sure of yourself in that last post, so I'm just asking you to cite one of those sources that you feel the need to defend.  

I am very, very sure that I have read articles, some books and many internet sites critical of Islam and Muhammad, if you don't believe me or say I am lying, that is your right. Many sources I can't remember by name.

But look above in this thread, Tashi Freeman provided primary sources with links. Another site with many primary and secondary sources is to be found here. According to an islamic site here it is still permissible today to marry child brides because of Muhammad's example.

So, at what age will you sell your daughter into marriage? (before you insinuate things again: I am not interested... forcing children into arranged marriages is a crime against human dignity).


The only thing you seem to have any real knowledge about in this series of posts is a strong urge to plunder virgin hymens based on a feeling of disgust towards the vagina's of women your own age.

Of course, it had to come to this, please don't surprise me.
I am not disgusted by vagina's of my own age or older, I cherish the vajayjay at most ages that are appropriate for me, I have no interest in virgins, though... I was playing the devil's advocate when I said that Muhammad craved for younger fare. And the obsession with virgins of Muslim men is not just a prejudice.

Muhammad (an historical figure you now admit you know nothing about)

I did not admit I knew nothing about him, sigh, I said I was not a scholar, but I am well read for an infidel, trust me. I certainly  have literally forgotten more of what I read than the average American knows about Islam, many key points stuck with me, though. I can and have pointed out many positive things about Islam, even on this site, in a discussion with saad. But that does not influence at all whether criticisms of Muhammad are legitimate or true. Now read the links, Tashi and I have provided and then come back and explain to us that you can't believe them because they can't be true if they say negative things.

you seem to have a pretty good emotional grasp on the inner motives of a pedophile. Congrats!

Thanks! I was not joking when I said I am an expert in crazyness... like professionally. I can emulate and empathize with many a strange mind. That does not mean I subscribe to every pathology myself! But how you can recognize this from one sentence I have written?

Wow, so now you are the second Muslim (at this point, I have to assume you are a Muslima, based on your emotional reaction and personal retaliation when your superhero-prophet is criticized) on this site that accuses me of being a pedophile when I point out your prophet slept with a nine year old. Does that count under the defense of Islam by any means in jihad?

My main guess is, though, that - per example of your dear prophet - you don't regard pedophila as the despicable crime it is, so you can throw around such heinous accusations lightly based on one sentence in an internet blog. Shame on you!

by eborujion on 02/07/2010 04:14:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If you want to get personal... (none / 0)
I am American, raised Catholic and unfortunately experienced the damage of molestation first-hand.. I just don't like to see an otherwise intelligent debate turn into a name-calling festival...

There will always be those who can have a discourse at a respectful level and those that will turn a debate into a name-calling festival.... "your god is a pedophile", "your god drinks pee", "Jews carry diseases", "Muslims are like cockroaches" and on and on and on...

I think we need to understand the other side. Islam is not only a religion but it's also a history and a culture that many people grow up into. You can't dismiss their ways just like you can't dismiss the positive memories I have of Easter and Christmas.  I imagine your perfect world is one where Muslims don't exist... mine is not.

by ilovecenk99 on 02/07/2010 04:49:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Edumacation. (none / 0)
I am American, raised Catholic and unfortunately experienced the damage of molestation first-hand.. I just don't like to see an otherwise intelligent debate turn into a name-calling festival...

I am very sorry to hear that. But I have to say, you started the personal name-calling (I don't consider saying something negative about Muhammad as name-calling, especially when there is a legitimate discussion even among scholars).

"your god is a pedophile", "your god drinks pee", "Jews carry diseases", "Muslims are like cockroaches" and on and on and on...

I don't know if I can explain it to you: the statements "your god drinks pee" or "your prophet slept with a nine year old" are not on par with "Jews carry diseases" or "Muslims are like cockroaches". They are on entirely different planes! The first is a metaphysical statement, and god -as you claim to believe in- probably drinks pee. There is no way to prove or disprove that, so I can assert anything I want in that realm without it being controversial or offensive. The second, if not totally made up, is a statement about a historical fact that -granted- is not generally accepted but there is a discussion. It may be true or untrue, but from my POV, it should not be offensive to YOU that I hold any of the two positions. The other statements are totally different from that. They are provably untrue generalizations  very offensive and objectively unacceptable by all standards and by all persons. I often make a generalization that you might find objectionable. I think all religious people are deluded to some degree. I think that generalization is true, because in that case the point of comparison is equal to the point of objection (sorry, no philosophy major). What I want to say is religious belief and delusion can be equated as believing something that noone can prove and has no outside logic to it.

Islam is not only a religion but it's also a history and a culture that many people grow up into. You can't dismiss their ways just like you can't dismiss the positive memories I have of Easter and Christmas.  I imagine your perfect world is one where Muslims don't exist... mine is not.

My perfect world is where no religion exists at all and all people are peaceful and committed towards the greater good of humanity as a whole, but that is not realistic and I certainly don't generally advocate violently engaging religious people (not opposed to liberating suppressed people). So, next I would wish, there could be a world where all religious people would be reasonable. I just think that is more unrealistic than there being no religion at all. If you are open to believe something without any evidence and logic, you are on your way to believing anything you are told by authorities (or your own subconscious imagination). Even if most people ARE reasonable, SOMEONE will be radical and abuse religion to gain power. I don't want Muslims to cease existence, especially not the so-called Muslim culture (do you really think that the belief in Allah is necessary for the other aspects of the culture?) Call me crazy, I can totally enjoy couscous and falafel without believing... I think most of the cultural practices make total sense without Islam, up to the call for prayer, that could be a call for learning, a call for observation, etc. The negative parts of the culture, though, like public whippings, amputations and child abuse, I can live without and I am sure, most people could live without. So, absolutely realistical, I want for all children on Earth to enjoy an education that is totally independent from any form of religious brainwashing (if inevitable , it can be done after school, starting at earliest somewhere after the age of ten).

What you also must not forget, there is no homogenous Muslim culture, e.g. Maghreb and Indonesia are very different, only in the recent years Saudi money tried to spread their brand of Islam throughout the Muslim world with many bad consequences, especially for other Muslims, especially for minorities among Muslims, especially for women and children.

by eborujion on 02/07/2010 05:43:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I get you hate all religious people... (none / 0)
and love to spew words of hatred against them on this site... Aren't you also the one that did that horrible Japanese-hating post some time back and I had to school you then as well??

Here are some of your dumbest comments on this blogpost:

So, because he had to deal with this shriveled pussy for so long, he was craving for virgin flesh? _ This comment is also hateful of women in case you didn't notice.  As a woman, I take offense to that comment and I don't take offense to many things. Just FYI.

Marrying a rich widow to further one's political goals is really brave. Even the Maverick John McCain did it! Now that I think of it: there are multiple parallels between the two. Again, this is your cynical fantasy of the situation versus anything close to the historical records. What's wrong with a man falling in love with his boss, marrying her and being faithful to her for 25 years as a wife and partner. I know you want to try to turn every single little thing you think you know about Islam into a personal attack on Muhammad, but come on - for a guy who admits he knows nothing about it you sure pretend to know a lot.


Now, that I think of it: funny that Muslims have mostly just one entity to ascribe all of the different psychological functions. Westerners ("Christians") have many of them, from Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the aforementioned super heroes to the Grim Reaper.  Again, you're a total ignorant dork.  Muslims don't have just one entity - they have a rich history of historical characters who played various roles as the leader of the Muslim people. Problem is you just don't know about any of them so you think they don't exist and therefore you make blanket assumptions. There is Ali, Omar, Othman, Marwan and literally hundreds of characters who are depicted in parables that are used to teach lessons in their culture/religion.

I mean, it is really ridiculous that this god supposedly told Muhammad who to fuck with but not how to conquer future problems of mankind. Use your logic and reason, and you will come to this conclusion, too: either Allah is not allknowing and allmighty or Muhammad was a fraud which makes an Allah pretty much an unknown.  What are we going to do with you??  Did you know that Muhammad and those leaders who followed him united the Middle East for the first time and established laws, public works, and a society that was based on generosity and taking care of societies weakest members. Before Islam, there were only raiding tribes and conquering emperors. Due to Muhammad, the region was unified under one leader, and then future leaders were elected based on their experience and values.  Also Muhammad was also widely known for being a peacemaker, a skilled negotiator, and an ombudsperson. He originally left Mecca for Medinah to negotiate a peace between warring tribes.  Yet you, not knowing anything about Muhammad, his life's work or the actual historical facts apparently know enough about all of it to thereby disprove the faith of Islam and the existence of God.

I get that you hate religion and you don't believe in any of it. I get that you think people with faith are dangerous and you apparently have a rating system for them. And you are entitled to hate who you want to hate... Yet, for the LOVE OF GOD, can you just stop being so ignorant??? Don't try to justify your personal beliefs with lies, exaggerations or misrepresentations. Just state what you believe and leave it at that...

by ilovecenk99 on 02/07/2010 03:43:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't hate you, I want to help you ;). (none / 0)
Please feel free to show me where I objectively displayed hate for anyone. Impatience and ridicule, sometimes sarcastic disdain are what I want to express most of the time, not hate.

"So, because he had to deal with this shriveled pussy for so long, he was craving for virgin flesh?" _ This comment is also hateful of women in case you didn't notice.  As a woman, I take offense to that comment and I don't take offense to many things. Just FYI.

Ok. I guess, sarcasm does not translate well for everyone into written word. Please believe me that this statement does not represent my own attitude. I was playing the devil's advocate, my humor can be crude and tasteless, someone who loves Cenk should be used to similar jokes.

Muslims don't have just one entity

I was not talking about historical figures that serve as ideals, Christianity has many of them, too, but supernatural entities that serve psychological functions. Yes, my statement was a little over-generalized, because you have jinns in Islamic folk beliefs. I am also aware of the rich literature of parables and stories. For the most part, though, they are about flesh and blood humans, right? I guess, you made up your mind about me, so you can't even accept a compliment anymore...

What are we going to do with you??  Did you know that Muhammad and those leaders who followed him united the Middle East for the first time and established laws, public works, and a society that was based on generosity and taking care of societies weakest members

I am well aware of most of the positives, I grew up in an Islam-friendly family. As aluded in the other comment, I explicitly stated on this site in an argument with saad, many of exactly those positive achievements and features of Islam. That does not make the refusal to even consider any negatives about their religion and its founder by Muslims less true, much less the negatives themselves. Just because there is room for criticism does not mean all of it is bad, and I never claimed that, it just means, you should be open to acknowledge the negative sides. In a way, I am the opposing lawyer, why should I constantly point out positive things, just to appease you so that you don't have the urge to kill me?

I get that you think people with faith are dangerous and you apparently have a rating system for them.

a) yes, b) no, the rating system was just a joke, that I made up in that thread. And I hate noone, my strongest feelings about religion is pity and frustration (pity that so many children are brainwashed into believing this stuff and frustration about the near impossibility to reach their minds).

lies, exaggerations or misrepresentations.

I don't lie, never ever. Exaggerations and reductio ad absurdum are often necessary. And it is not that I misrepresent something out of malice but to show how easy it can be done, or what specific misrepresentation do you mean?

Yet, for the LOVE OF GOD, can you just stop being so ignorant???

There probably is no god, so, I guess, that is a NO.

by eborujion on 02/07/2010 04:50:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]

cenks comment on the prophet Muhammad | 116 comments (116 topical, 0 hidden)