KenTX \ Rockulus Debate | 70 comments (70 topical, 0 hidden)
Debate Ken, it seems the boycott's over.... (none / 0)
Not to punch holes in the claim, but there is a difference between having an environmental impact and causing global warming.  I thought the debate was about global warming, not pollution.  Since man only creates 15% of the CO2 produced in any given year, good luck with that one.  If humans stopped producing CO2 tomorrow it would only change the cycle by 15%, thus slowing it down, what 15 years in a hundred.  All of the cap and trade schemes seek to limit production and try to reverse it, but nothing actually takes CO2 out of the air.  Voodoo science.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/16/2010 10:24:06 PM EST

where did you get your info? (none / 0)
Beck or Hannity


by Chinese Democracy on 03/17/2010 12:35:08 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Do a bit of research and you will find out... (none / 1)

Most CO2 comes from the ocean, then it comes from the warming trend in the tundra areas, decay of plants naturally and finally human activity.

http://www.personal.psu.edu /jam5646/edg100/project2.ht ml

 Chart of Carbon Production

The great discussion is that human activity is upsetting the natural balance.  And if we only reduce our activities by 50% we will restore the natural balance.

http://www.drroyspencer.com /2009/01/increasing-atmosph eric-co2-manmade%E2%80%A6or -natural/

Let's say we do, the temperatures will still be increasing.  It's a feed back loop that started a long time ago, well before the 150 year hockey stick.  Yes, human activity is causing more CO2, but destroying our economy to buy 15 years is stupid.

Instead we should look for ways to naturally remove CO2 from the atmosphere. One thing is for sure, China and India are not going to reduce their emissions, punishing western consumers and businesses will only lead to more economic dislocation.

Planting a billion trees will create a natural sink for CO2.  Oil use will begin declining in the next 10 years as oil prices begin to double due to demand and supply restrictions.  Encourage conversion of cars to natural gas.  And even after all of that, the earth will still get hotter.

It is a natural evolutionary cycle.  The weatherman is only 50% right in most cases.  Could it be that he is only 50% right when it comes to climate change.

For those with open minds, read this article "It's the ocean stupid.":

http://www.nov55.com/gbwm.h tml

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/17/2010 01:53:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]
For those with an open mind, (none / 0)

Try to find out anything AT ALL about the author of those article.  Mr. Gary Novak (Mushroom Biologist) this is from that website posted above.

Scientist

Several decades ago, I got a masters degree at the University of Arizona researching a yeast which adapted to growth on trees. I then studied for a year on a Ph.D. degree at the University of California at Davis. But mental pain caused by distracting environments drove me out.

I refer to myself as a scientist, even though I have a masters degree and not a Ph.D. degree, because I do what scientists are supposed to be doing,

 

Well, isn't that special.  For those with an open mind, consider the credibility of the speaker, and how 'mental pains' got in the way of his advanced education.

 

I couldn't find a peer-reviewed article by this guy either.

by Rockulus on 03/17/2010 02:46:42 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You attack the author. (none / 0)

Instead of proving his theory wrong, you simply attack his credentials.  He has a point.  Water stores heat better than air.  The earth's surface is mostly water.  Sunlight will heat the water, why is it heating it or how it is heating it is more important.

The whole notion that CO2 causes global warming is backwards.  Global warming causes more CO2.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/17/2010 03:50:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Feed back loop! (none / 0)
Exactly, you have that feed back back loop since the start of weather. Let's consider it as a perpetuum mobile. It keeps on going and maybe even accelerates over time. That's the nature of this system. When you add input to a system like that, you increase the output, which increases the output...
There are causes we can do nothing about, those will feed back regardless what we do. Addin additional input is what makes it dangerous.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/17/2010 03:41:09 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes, but reducing CO2 will do what? (none / 0)
If we slow down the production of CO2, it will only retard the process, not stop it or reverse it.  It's like someone with lung cancer deciding to quit smoking to extend their life a few more months.  In the end you die anyway.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/17/2010 03:52:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"In the end you die anyway." (none / 0)
So, why do you care about anything?

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/17/2010 05:58:59 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I look for solutions. (none / 0)

I am looking for solutions, not band aids.  All this cap and trade crap is a way for bankers to make money and people to feel good.  it doesn't solve the main problem which is global warming.

To solve global warming, well we need to shield the earth from the sun.  Any ideas?

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/17/2010 09:51:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Still (none / 0)
The first step has to be to change our life-style. That's what I hate about the global warming debate: It's not only the temperature that is effected. Air pollution also increases many diseases and harms eco-systems in other ways than just by increasing the temperature.

Shielding the earth from the sun might at some time become necessary, but it can also only be a band aid.

If we don't decrease the amount of waste and poisons that we produce it will always be like a guy getting a lipusection every year, so he doesn't have to take care of his diet.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/17/2010 10:26:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
They seem to be missing the main point (none / 0)
It doesn't matter if the contribution of man-made CO2 is a small percentage of "natural" CO2.  The important aspect is that CO2 is naturally released and absorbed year by year, almost as though the world is breathing in and out annually, while that small human leak is additive.   It works like a small gas leak in your house.   It isn't a problem for several days,  you may not even notice it when you close the door and leave on vacation, but if the house stays closed it eventually goes BANG.   Now the climate won't just go bang on a human time scale, but on geological time scales a change of a few degrees in under one century is actually a pretty rapid explosion.

by bfaul on 03/17/2010 04:01:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Blast from the past (none / 0)

Some will recognize this rebuttal from 2+ years ago..he spewing the same old BS after being whacked like a cheap piñata numerous times

 -------

"There are a couple of facts we can be certain of"

These are "facts" that aren't relevant to the argument..just pointless spin:

"1. If every American started driving a Prius tomorrow, the net effect on man-made global CO2 generation would be insignificant."

A Prius, and especially the new plug in model reduces fuel consumption ( which does reduce carbon emissions) and dependency on petroleum based fuels are the number one reason people buy them, hence your ridicule.

"2. Environmentalists are not in favor of more nuclear power plants."

Some are , some aren't. A fallacious line of argument that assumes nuclear power plants are the only solution. A meaningless statement.

"3. Global cooling from diminished solar activity will render this entire discussion moot."

The global cooling you were referencing in the previous posts ( above) was in a discussion on aerosols in the atmosphere counterbalancing CO2 emissions heating effect, in another blog the "proof "  was due to orbital forcing or Milankovitch cycles. Now magically it's due to "diminished solar activity." Things are dimming alright...but its not the sun. At least in the next few thousand years anyway By the way,

"The next message will be flashed to you in code, by my brother-in-law, who was a radio operator 1963-1968."

Morse code communication is still practiced by our Russian and Chinese friends, who know that if the balloon goes up,HF and LF Morse is the most reliable form of long haul communications and will be around long after our satellites , cell phones and terrestrial coms are piles of fused plastic.

You really shouldn't make fun of things you don't understand."

by MRFred on 03/17/2010 06:18:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Well (none / 0)
"Things are dimming alright...but its not the sun"

You're probably not right on that one. Last year many sunspots were expected, but they didn't show. This is responsible for the current relatively hard winter, if the next years the occurance of sunspots doesn't rise it could once again mead to a "mini-ice-age". This has happened in Europe a few hundert years ago, with terrible consequences for about 30 years. This is what makes the problem worse. This lack of sun-spots is only a temporary incident, but it may lead to enormous cooling in the short term. Then when the sun-spot activity normalizes global warming will come back with a vengence.

The problem is that the temporal cooling will be used to discredit global warming. # cold winters in a row and everybody will laugh about global warming, without realizing that it was only masked by a temporal lack of sunspots.

I hate it that the discussion is nowadays mainly about global warming, without mentioning all the other problems pollution causes. Why is nobody talking about the astma and cancer cars cause in our cities?

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/18/2010 07:14:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Ah, but you are being alarmist (none / 0)

It's not a few degrees every century, it's .5 degrees every century.  I believe the world can adapt to that.

Global warming might be bad for some, but it is good for others, namely the US, Europe and Russia/China.  Given that the bulk of economic activity occurs in these areas, global warming should be welcomed.  With longer growing seasons, these areas can produce more food and use less energy to heat their homes.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/17/2010 09:32:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Estimates are considerably higher than that (none / 0)
Besides, when you look at the world wide retreat of high altitude glaciers in the last 40 years, the decrease in the mass of the Greenland ice sheet, the increased melting and acceleration of glacial ice in Greenland, the decreasing thickness and rapidly accelerating summer melting of the Arctic ice cap, the collapse of large ice shelves in the Antarctic and the corresponding acceleration of glaciers there and the decrease of overall mass of Antarctic ice I hardly think that anything I say is more alarmist than what is already being reported year by year.

by bfaul on 03/17/2010 11:20:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You can't be serious! (none / 0)
Global warming does not mean that the temperature climbs steadily .5 degrees every year. It also means that the weater in general becomes more extrem. You will have more hurricanes, tsunamis, etc.
Nobody is yet able to predict the consequences.

"Global warming might be bad for some, but it is good for others, namely the US, Europe and Russia/China.  Given that the bulk of economic activity occurs in these areas, global warming should be welcomed."

Let's use the allegory of the overeating guy again. If someone eats a lot of sugar that raises his blood sugar level and makes that person more active so this person becomes fitter. That's where your thought process ends when it comes to global warming. You just look at the short term benefit and ignore the long term consequences.

Keep thinking that everything is ok, as long as it doesn't negatively influence America in the next ten years. I wouldn't expect anything else from a typical American.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/18/2010 07:21:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
What's your point? (none / 0)

Greenhouse gases are a scam foisted upon the west to justify a new tax regime to transfer payments to the developing world and support US military imperialism.  Yes, the earth is slowly, I emphasize slowly warming up.  Do the math, .5 degrees every 100 years.  Further, we will run out of petroleum in less than 100 years.  Technology will continue to advance and alternative energies will be cheaper.

Larding up the economy with new taxes that don't generate tangible benefits is a non-starter.  How many more Americans do you want to see in the unemployment line?

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/18/2010 10:20:20 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"Greenhouse gases are a scam" (none / 0)
Any evidence for that?

" .5 degrees every 100 years."

Where did you get that number?

My point is still that pollution is bad.
If you want to deny that please go into your garage and close all doors and let your engine run for a few hours. Can't do any harm, can it?
If you don't deny that pollution is bad than give some solutions about how to minimize pollution. Doctoring the symptoms without adressing the causes will not help in the long run.

"Larding up the economy with new taxes that don't generate tangible benefits is a non-starter."

If people switch to electric cars and public transportation faster than slower that will save thousands of people in big cities from dying of cancer or asthma. To me this sounds like a benefit, but that's only me. Who cares about people dying, as long as it isn't you, right?
If the revenue of that tax is invested in green enrgy applications and research, it will create many jobs and make America more competitive.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/18/2010 10:34:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Focus (none / 0)

CO2 is not and never will be pollution.  It is a vital chemical needed by plants for the purpose of breathing.  CO2 in O2 out.  If it were pollution then everyone on the planet would need to pay a breathing tax.

Higher CO2 levels are good for plant growth.  In fact let's double the CO2 in the atmosphere and watch out plants become ever greener and hardier.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/18/2010 11:51:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Come on (none / 0)
The dose makes the poison!

Of Course CO2 is necessary, but currently it plays an important part in climate change. It is one of many factors, but it adds to the positive feedback.
Plants can only use a certain amount of CO2, they don't become greener the more CO" they get.
Humans on the other hand can suffer from CO2 poisoning. And CO2 plays an important role in the growing asthma and cancer rates.

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/19/2010 01:40:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Do your homework (none / 0)

Higher CO2 levels increase yields, I'm a farmer I should know.

Large-Scale Greenhouses Attached to Power Plants for the Productive Use of Waste Heat and CO2 emissions
In the United States, there are approximately 800 large power plants that burn natural gas or coal. Power plants are usually situated
away from population centers because of cost of land, pollution, noise and aesthetic. The area surrounding a large power plant often
consists of substantial buffer land to separate the plant from housing developments. Power plants typically need to be located near
water sources to facilitate plant cooling requirements. Currently, there are not enough industrial customers that can use the low-
temperature waste heat from most power plants. The efficiency of power plants in converting thermal energy to electricity is less than
50%. Therefore, for each 1MW of power output another 1MW of thermal power is wasted to the environment. This represents waste
on a grand scale.
We believe that the large quantities of low-temperature waste heat from power plants can be used in large-scale greenhouses that
are integrated with the cooling systems of power plants. Furthermore, we propose to use the emissions from large power plants as a
source of CO2 for large-scale commercial greenhouses, boosting productivity and quality of high-value crops such as vegetables and
flowers. The specific aim of this plan is to develop a prototype pilot for interfacing a power plant and a greenhouse. The pilot project
will be used to demonstrate the potential of this concept, as well as allowing novel investigations into fundamental engineering
processes relevant to clean energy technologies, environmental science and plant metabolism. The pilot program will use the waste
heat and emissions from a natural gas combined cycle power plant. Calpine Corporation, a power company that operates
nationwide 89 power plants is a strategic partner for this venture. Calpine is providing now in-kind engineering support.
Large-scale greenhouses operating in the vicinity of power plants will substantially increase revenues of power companies through
sale of waste heat and emission gases and increase the commercial value of land surrounding the power plants that is now unused.
Greenhouses will be leased, rented or sold to growers. The agricultural output from the greenhouses is expected to replace a
substantial portion of the currently imported high-value greenhouse vegetable crops.

http://docs.google.com/view er?a=v&q=cache:7uyHQ87m gb0J:alamaro.home.comcast.n et/~alamaro/GreenhouseConce pt.pdf+waste+co2+power+plan ts+greenhouse&hl=en& ;gl=vn&pid=bl&srcid =ADGEESgz8Iyys5zcNSsw5VCCjj ocTsB6r_ON9ZYvQ1qnoZb37tGS4 eydGdWkFHIaB_INQ3xtk3M_Z-TY LhErw1ECFP5xiwY_za-RzLipC0l CdqcZ2xPNPK8IxH3MCPrInlbVsB RkS_Cs&sig=AHIEtbRnuZ06 az9iqMU91q9W1TbXeOzS8A

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/19/2010 10:23:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Not over (none / 1)
Kens claims to want to "debate" are over.

by MRFred on 03/17/2010 10:04:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]

KenTX \ Rockulus Debate | 70 comments (70 topical, 0 hidden)