KenTX \ Rockulus Debate | 70 comments (70 topical, 0 hidden)
Please don't classify me as a conservative. (none / 0)

I am a progressive liberal, I just happened to have a warped reality that recognizes that the capitalist banker scum have hijacked the global warming movement and turned it on its head to support their unquenchable thirst for profits.

I believe that CO2 is a shill for collecting higher taxes to benefit the US military industrial complex with higher and higher defense spending to support the US imperial overreach.

Instead I support a gasoline tax to support alternative fuel development and allow alternatives to be competitive with petroleum products.  This is a regressive tax, but it is the only way to get people to change their behavior.

If someone can show me how nuclear is less polluting than coal, have at it.  Nuclear waste takes 10,000 years plus to decay.  Dumping it in the pacific or burying it in a hole is lunacy.  Instead we should build large greenhouses around every power plant and pump the CO2 into the greenhouse to enhance the growth of plants.

It's only with great hubris that  we as Americans, the greatest polluters, can tell developing countries not to use their coal resources.  Instead, we should let them be.  We must be the leader that everyone follows.

Instead of spending 350 billion a year for our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we should spend 100 billion a year building large solar mirror power plants in Arizona and Nevada.  We should spend 100 billion a year on true high speed rail to replace planes.  Finally we should spend 150 billion a year building new cities that build factories and shopping malls underground and housing on top.

I bet we could create 10 million jobs this way.  Invest in America, not in our next war in Iran.

As for Ken, let him have his say.  Even conservatives are right once in awhile.  Listening to ideas that only support your ideas causes group think and logic loops. 

Christianity is a good example since Christians only use the Bible as their source of reference they ignore anything else which might contradict their perceived truths even when it is staring them in the face.  People don't want to hear things that question their world view or they question their sanity.

75 years ago Eugenics was the science of the day.  That was voodoo science and CO2 is today's voodoo science.  Anyone want to go back to Eugenics?

Global warming is the new religion of liberals desperate for something to believe in.  The temperature records were manipulated.  The ocean isn't warming dramatically, the air temperature is up .5 degrees and plants just love the extra CO2.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/17/2010 09:56:47 PM EST

Yeah, right, whatever (none / 0)

Global warming is the new religion of liberals desperate for something to believe in.

Oh horseshit.   It took me 20 years to be convinced by the relentless accumulation of new evidence.   There's decades of science and millions of patient man hours of research behind the current theory.  Against that all you seem to have is an opinion you're pulling out of your behind.   I'm going with the science.


by bfaul on 03/17/2010 11:34:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
papa dont preach (none / 0)


by Chinese Democracy on 03/17/2010 11:36:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Godwin! You lost! (none / 0)
"75 years ago Eugenics was the science of the day.  That was voodoo science and CO2 is today's voodoo science.  Anyone want to go back to Eugenics?"

Why don't you call people who believe in climate change just environmenazis?

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/18/2010 07:25:02 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Good idea (none / 0)
When anyone tries to discredit the whole global warming game, they get heaps of derision cast at them as if they just declared Jesus never existed to a bunch of Baptists.  Global warming is today's religion, when it passes, there will be a new one.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/18/2010 10:23:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I've already called Godwin! (none / 0)
You've lost this discussion!

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 03/18/2010 10:35:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You've discredited nothing (none / 0)

"When anyone tries to discredit the whole global warming game"

The only way to "discredit" current theory is to accumulate data that clearly demonstrates other causes for the changes that have been observed for the last 40 years or demonstrate why CO2 can not be the culprit and present it in a peer reviewed paper.   If there is such compelling evidence I guarantee it will be produced and scientific opinion will change.  Political arguments about it are completely useless.

We've seen this kind of bullshit again and again when some commercial or political or religious interest doesn't like where the science is leading.   "Evolution is just a theory", "The world is only 6000 years old",  "Cigarettes aren't what causes lung cancer",  "The stars and the sun revolve around the earth".

If you're not convinced you're not convinced, that's fine, but don't run around yelling that anthropogenic global warming is a "liberal religion".   It's the fucking conservatives that have changed it from a scientific issue (which is what it should be) into a political one because they don't like where the evidence is pointing.

You gave a lot of actions that you thought ought to be taken, most of them pretty good suggestions.   When people want to know why you think these actions are necessary what do you tell them?  "Just 'cuz"?

by bfaul on 03/18/2010 11:59:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Antarctic ice, the media lies, of course they do (none / 0)

Antarctic Sea Ice for November 2009 Higher Than 1979 - December 10, 2009

Contrary to media reports Antarctic sea ice continues to expand.  Ice totals for November 2009 are significantly higher than 1979 when measurements began.  The main stream media concentrates on a couple of small area of the Antarctic in order to scare you in to believing that Antarctica is melting, when in fact it is gaining ice.

From the National Snow and Ice Data Center, University of Colorado

 

Since measurements began in 1979 antarctic sea ice has continued to expand, contrary to what the news media would have you believe.  We bring this information to you month after month and still there is no sign of the main stream media picking up on the story.  They continue to discuss the relatively small areas of the Western Antarctic Peninsula that are melting due to changes in ocean currents.

You may have heard that some of the "computer models" predicted increases in antarctic ice, but they predicted increased "interior ice" due to increased snow fall.  None of the models predicted increased sea ice around the antarctic.  Yet that is what we have, more sea ice in November of 2009 than what we had in November of 1979 when measurements began.  This is highly significant yet hardly anyone in the main stream media (MSM) is talking about it.

Sea ice is much different than interior ice.  Some of the computer models predicted increased ice over the interior of antarctic.  If you've ever lived in the extreme cold temperature regions you already understand the reasons why.  When it gets very cold the air becomes drier and it snows less, as the temperature warms towards freezing it actually snows more.  Since the antarctic rarely even gets close to freezing its understandable that warming would cause more snow to fall.  Over time compacted snow would lead to more ice.  But that is not what is happening here.  We're seeing increases in "sea ice", this ice is over the ocean.  Sea ice is caused by colder temperatures, not by increased snow fall.  But we hear nothing from either MSM or the scientific community.  Especially compared to the out 6%-7% decrease at the artic (this isn't year over year, this is a 6% decline since 1980!).

Antarctic Sea Ice for November 

Year     ;   Coverage Area     ;    Ice Concentration

2009     ; 16.3 million sq km    11.6 million sq km

1995     16.0 million sq km    11.4 million sq km

1979     15.9 million sq km    11.2 million sq km

This continues a long trend of increasing sea ice that has been noted here for several months.

Interior ice is also increasing but not due to warming as the models have predicted.  According to NOAA GISS data winter temperatures in the antarctic have actually fallen by 1 degree F since 1957, with the coldest year being 2004.  All the while global CO2 levels have gone up and the MSM has been reporting near catastrophic warming conditions.  They regularly show Antarctic sea ice shelves breaking apart, which is an entirely normal process (though they never tell you that part).  The MSM and certain elements of the scientific community truly must hav no shame.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/18/2010 10:14:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Forget the media (none / 0)

This is a phenomena peculiar to the location and conditions.   Antarctic sea ice hasn't been "growing", there were simply a couple of years where it hadn't receded in the summer as much as predicted. 

 

Here's the USGS in February:

Research by the U.S. Geological Survey is the first to document that every ice front in the southern part of the Antarctic Peninsula has been retreating overall from 1947 to 2009, with the most dramatic changes occurring since 1990. The USGS previously documented that the majority of ice fronts on the entire Peninsula have also retreated during the late 20th century and into the early 21st century. 

 

Here's NASA in 2008:

Ice loss in Antarctica increased by 75 percent in the last 10 years due to a speed-up in the flow of its glaciers and is now nearly as great as that observed in Greenland, according to a new, comprehensive study by NASA and university scientists.

In a first-of-its-kind study, an international team led by Eric Rignot of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., and the University of California, Irvine, estimated changes in Antarctica's ice mass between 1996 and 2006 and mapped patterns of ice loss on a glacier-by-glacier basis. They detected a sharp jump in Antarctica's ice loss, from enough ice to raise global sea level by 0.3 millimeters (.01 inches) a year in 1996, to 0.5 millimeters (.02 inches) a year in 2006.

 

Here's NASA again:

There has been lots of talk lately about Antarctica and whether or not the continent's giant ice sheet is melting. One new paper, which states there’s less surface melting recently than in past years, has been cited as "proof" that there’s no global warming. Other evidence that the amount of sea ice around Antarctica seems to be increasing slightly is being used in the same way. But both of these data points are misleading. Gravity data collected from space using NASA's Grace satellite show that Antarctica has been losing more than a hundred cubic kilometers (24 cubic miles) of ice each year since 2002. The latest data reveal that Antarctica is losing ice at an accelerating rate, too. How is it possible for surface melting to decrease, but for the continent to lose mass anyway? The answer boils down to the fact that ice can flow without melting.

 

A good discussion of the subject can be found here.

by bfaul on 03/19/2010 12:04:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You haven't proven anything. (none / 0)

Your first one was the USGS for the Southern part only.  It's a big continent.

The rest are for 10 or less year periods which can be caused by natural weather variability.  Again they are picking the data points that best suit the argument.

My article took the last 30 years, the period which represents the supposed warming after the cooling period  during the 60's and 70's.

Yes, the earth is heating up.  Man may have a small, miniscule responsibility.  It is the natural ebb and flow of the earth to heat up and cool and return to ice.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/19/2010 08:38:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Sorry, it's too short a timeline (none / 0)

Everyone likes to pick their time lines to make their case.  It is absolutely true that since 1860, temperatures have been rising.  Albeit by a very small amount.  The issue is whether this is caused by man or whether it is caused by natural earth cycles.

Most people are ego-centric and believe the universe revolves around them.  When in fact we are just minor historical footnote in the galactic scale.  Yes, we are polluting, yes we are making the "so called" greenhouse gases in ever greater numbers.  The truth s a bitter pill.  It doesn't matter in the grand time scale.

Every 100,000 years there is a new ice age epoch.  Whatever we do will be insignificant to effect the outcome. Whether this ice age has started, will start in 10 years or 200 years, it will start.  God isn't going to come to our rescue, alter the orbit of our planet and prevent the next great ice age.

http://itsrainmakingtime.co m/2009/climate-part1/

Destroying our economies with transfer taxes isn't going to change that.  The goals and aspirations of environmentalists are noteworthy.  However they must be honest about them.  Using pseudo science to support a green agenda and a global agenda to redistribute wealth is simply dishonest.

Scaring the west into doing something they couldn't sell at the ballot box is criminal.  The end doesn't justify the means.

Recently the sun has started to behave in an abnormal manner.  Scientists may have to reevaluate the whole solar sun spot theory.  Whoops.  Did the scientists get it wrong?

http://www.independent.co.u k/news/science/the-missing- sunspots-is-this-the-big-ch ill-1674630.html

The solar conveyor belt has been linked to sunspot activity.  Faster belt, more sunspots, more energy going to earth, however sunspot activity is at a 100 year low and the belt is running at top speed.  See the excerpt below:

"However, in 2004 the speed increased to nearly 30 mph and has remained that fast since."

The faster pace is a revelation because it occurred during the deepest solar minimum in almost 100 years and indications that the next solar cycle will be a weak one.

This contradicts some theories that say a fast pace results in increased sunspot production. But it agrees with others that say a fast pace results in decreased sunspot production.

The faster rate of currents on the sun and the expected weaker solar cycle have affects for those of us here on Earth.

One affect is the temperature increase of the Earth could slow down, there would be fewer auroras, and to the extent that we depend on satellites, GPS, and cell phones there should be less disruption in service.

http://www.spacedaily.com/r eports/Solar_Conveyor_Belt_ Runs_At_Record_High_Speeds_ 999.html

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/19/2010 09:57:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Sure (none / 0)
If you drive fast enough and hit a strong enough building!

Nothing personal, but we are all part of the problem and could help in that way.;-)

"The first thing Fascists usually try to do is silencing the opposition."

by opposition on 05/07/2010 02:57:16 AM EST

[ Parent ]
because (none / 0)
trying to claim that there is no gobal warming is in the same class as claiming Obama was born in Kenya.

It cries for derision


by Chinese Democracy on 03/19/2010 10:54:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There is global warming (none / 0)

Unfortunately man is not the cause, it's the sun.

As for Obama, he couldn't have been born in Hawaii or Kenya.  He was in Washington state attending university with mom 2 weeks after he was born.  Who takes a 2 week old new born on a plane in 1961?  No one.

Take your pick, born in Washington state, Oregon state or British Columbia.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 03/19/2010 11:09:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]

KenTX \ Rockulus Debate | 70 comments (70 topical, 0 hidden)