"plans that must conform to sensible standards set by the HHS secretary with the advice of special panels of health care experts." LMAO and you forgot lobbies.

1. This bill has NO cost containment, and the best review it got was from Krugman and he was only able to give vague statements which at time countered his own argument.

2. This thing won't start for 4 years, giving Reps plenty of time to charge into this thing and water it down even further (including subsidies), therefore slaughtering the Dems once this thing comes into effect. You should know by now that for 1 good idea they put in they accept 5 ticking bombs from reps, so I don’t know when you think they are going to grow a pair.
 
3. They can still deny you coverage, they will just be fined for it and if it costs more to take you in then they won out. Not to mention they can jack up your costs till you fall out of the plan which the subsidies won't cover after a few years.

Unless Grayson’s plan gets support then it’s seriously stupid and just pushing people to buy insurance. This whole thing about coming back to the bill relies so much on Dems growing balls and them still being in power over the years.

This shit is 10 year old Trojan condom.

by Alloy on 03/17/2010 04:37:13 PM EST

What you're saying is just plainly factually untrue.  There is cost containment.  The bill puts limits on the rate at which medicare and exchange plan rates can grow.  Those limits are tied to a few consumer price indexes.  If they approach the limits, HHS is required to make cuts that bring costs back down.  

This is where the death panel meme comes from - claiming that HHS will be forced to cut needed medicare benefits to keep the rate of growth from exceeding the bill's limitations.  

Cost is contained simply through competition on the exchange.  If  a private nonprofit offers care for less than a private for-profit insurer, people will take their subsidies to the nonprofit.  

That's the point of the exchange.  It's like school vouchers, plus rules that make comparing schools to each other and switching to a better one easy.  The subsidies are health insurance vouchers, and the exchanges are regulated marketplaces where you can compare all the plans easily and choose the best one.

While many of the benefits don't start for 4 years, a lot of them do, including the medicaid/CHIP changes.  THOSE ARE ABSOLUTELY VITAL.  And one they go into effect they will never be repealed.  The states would go nuts if the republicans tried to make them to back to 50-50 matching.

If an insurance company or your employer denies you coverage, you become eligible to shop for coverage on the exchange.  ON THE EXCHANGE THEY CANNOT DENY COVERAGE.  A plan that denies anyone coverage on the exchange gets kicked out of the exchange - losing all those wonderful government subsidized beneficiaries.

The amount of misinformation on both sides of this bill is staggering.  I know it sounds crazy, but try to read the sections of the bill that are relevant here.  Or at least read the CBO report about the projected costs.  It's like 20 pages, and gives a great overview of the substance.

by dotkommissar on 03/17/2010 05:03:16 PM EST

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What you're saying is, everyone move to the exchange or else it doesn't apply to you? As for regulations in this day and age in any government system, I want to see it in action first to see if it has any teeth or leverage. And I would really like to see them enforce those rules which I doubt. CBO reports have been known to miss their projections greatly of various projects so again let’s see them land it.

I have said it before, I know it's going to pass however if you think Reps don't have the balls to strip or water it down even more then you're thinking of the Dems. However this thing won’t be affecting me at all, I’m just honestly curious about how you guys are going to jump to the next ledge in terms of healthcare.

by Alloy on 03/17/2010 06:44:56 PM EST

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Claiming that this bill doesn't affect you is like claiming you are satisfied with your current insurance when you've never been seriously ill and had to put it to the test.

You might get laid off.  You might get sick and get kicked off your plan.  You might start a small business and be unable to provide insurance for your employees.  In any number of situations you might find yourself depending on the safety net this bill bolsters.

But even if that never happens, claiming that the bill doesn't affect you is the same individualistic fallacy that leads conservatives to ask "why should i pay for those people?"

Human beings are social creatures.  We all rely on a society so complex that it's impossible for anyone to actually accomplish anything entirely on their own.  You rely on a bunch of people you've never met to continue doing what they're doing so you can continue doing what you're doing.  

If this bill succeeds at covering those who can't afford it at lower cost than under the current "emergency room care for all" system, and it most likely will, we all benefit - economically and socially.

Alloy, you're right to be skeptical.  I'm with you on that.  The bill is an enormous concession to private insurance.  The is no guarantee that HHS will regulate adequately.  

But we have to try this bill because there isn't any other bill.  If we pass the bill and it's terrible, let's elect enough progressives to fix it.  If we fail, and the Democrats remain corporatist, then good - let them eat it.  If the Republicans take over, they aren't going to come up with anything better, so they'll eat it too.

But if the bill doesn't pass, the life-or-death consequences of the status quo will be profoundly tragic.  And who will share in the blame?  Progressives, and rightly so.

It affects you if

by dotkommissar on 03/17/2010 07:41:48 PM EST

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Moving to Canada.

by Alloy on 03/17/2010 07:51:10 PM EST

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They are a happy little country.. they dont need the bull shit


by Chinese Democracy on 03/17/2010 10:41:08 PM EST

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Dominicans (they need more of us)? What BS are you talking about? All I see is people dreaming up shit like Obama and the dems playing 3d chess with this health care thing (LMAO Trojan Horse is a bad thing in this century) because they would rather believe that then the ass pounding this is going to cause. Honestly I'm done with America’s future; I just like poking fun at this place. Now is that so wrong?

Next in financial reform there will be people coming out saying “its ok guys it will be improved over the years”.

by Alloy on 03/17/2010 10:53:09 PM EST

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form of apathy on  a happy little country like Canada?

Go to someplace a little more hopeless I think it will be more satisfying for you.. try Darfur


by Chinese Democracy on 03/18/2010 04:55:50 AM EST

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Sure they wouldn't mind attitude towards the US. You should try North Korea however, where blind commitment is key.

by Alloy on 03/18/2010 02:17:56 PM EST

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"The bill puts limits on the rate at which medicare and exchange plan rates can grow."

That's only meaningful if you are forced to buy a substandard policy -- one weakened in its requirements by countless lobbyists.  But the insurance companies will make sure that their best customers -- the healthy ones -- don't have to buy those policies on the exchanges, since they don't have to sell insurance on the exchanges if they don't want to.

You supporters of this crappy legislation must be doing some kind of happy drug or something.  You're very naive to think that the insurance companies haven't already figured out myriad paths around the weak requirements of this legislation.  For instance, if they fail to meet the needs of an insured person, their fine in many cases will be $100 a day.  If they're facing costs of $1000 a day, they're better off paying the fine.

Do you think that they won't?

by EveningStarNM on 03/18/2010 01:31:50 AM EST

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have figured out how to make people on the left try to stop this bill at any cost

I mean whats good for the insurance companies is good for us  right?


by Chinese Democracy on 03/18/2010 03:47:13 AM EST

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They get millions of new customers, mandated by law, and billions in taxpayer dollars.  The insurance companies will pour champagne the day this bill is signed.

by EveningStarNM on 03/18/2010 07:25:27 AM EST

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the best idea right?

OR  we could just start over

If you had a pre existing condition  you might re think it

I dont know any bill that is perfect   and know of many that have been improved upon


by Chinese Democracy on 03/18/2010 03:45:53 AM EST

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he might rethink it?

I do, but I haven't.

 

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 02:04:49 PM EST

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