There's a big difference between well informed individuals who take time out each day or week to read, listen or watch good sources of information on important topics and the average Joe (Republican or Democrat). I assume you're well aware of that undeniable fact.

So I'm amused at the distortion "liberals are stupid" attempt. Let's have the exact same poll on if people support a bill with a mandate and without a public option/Medicare buy-in. What makes you think the average person out there is aware that the current bill is in fact a mandate without a public option/Medicare buy-in, etc.? At any rate I unsubscribed from MoveOn precisely because they were backing this POS bill, and I assume I'm not the only one. So the fact that remaining MoveOn members support the bill is not surprising, especially since MoveOn has sent out messages focusing on positive aspects and ripping (BS) Republican talking points, etc. So let's talk about some real polls (source: McClatchy).

Don't buy the spin: public is still split over health care proposal

"When you hear Republicans and talk show hosts say the country is overwhelmingly opposed to the health care legislation pending in Congress, don’t believe it.

And when you hear Democrats say momentum is building in recent weeks for the proposal, don’t believe that, either.

The fact is, the American public is pretty evenly divided over the proposal, as it’s been for months. Oh, there have been slight moves, with each side rising or dropping a few percentage points. But most reputable polls show the country split.

The new NBC-Wall Street Journal, a widely respected poll conducted jointly by a Democratic pollster and a Republican pollster, this week finds 36 percent think the Obama plan is a good idea, while 48 percent think it’s a bad idea.

(Another 15 percent still have no opinion – watch these people, they could decide this fall’s elections for control of Congress if they vote.)

The overall divided is very similar to the numbers last July, before the August town hall meetings that showcased a lot of anger at the proposal. Then, 36 percent thought the proposal was good idea and 42 percent thought it was a bad idea.

There has been an increase in opposition since spring. Since last April, support has risen from 33 percent to 36 percent, while opposition has risen from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But the ranks of those who think it’s a bad idea has never topped 50 percent in the poll – hardly overwhelming. And the numbers overall have been all but stuck for months – hardly the momentum the White House claims...

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 06:56:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I found my way to that NBC/WSJ poll and found this:

"At the same time, Democratic voters strongly favor the legislation being pushed by President Barack Obama, particularly constituencies such as blacks, Latinos and self-described liberals".

So, thanks for reaffirming what I said.  Liberals "strongly favor" the passage of this bill.

Also, self-described liberals and/or MoveOn members don't tend to be low-information voters like the average joe.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/18/2010 07:46:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I agree about MoveOn Members, but again, a lot of the stronger progressives left in the last year in light of the lack of pressure on this administration over the war, Bush Admin prosecution, and now healthcare.

And again, there is no reason to believe the the 3%/89% poll reflects a majority of self described liberals who are aware that the bill has a mandate and no public option. People are so desperate for reform (understandably) that they're willing to hope against hope that this watered down bullshit will help, or be improved upon at some point. A LOT of people are incredibly half-hearted in their "support" for this bill, arguing that half a loaf of moldy bread is better than no bread.

Sorry, but this DLC "Centrist" type of bullshit brought us NAFTA and deregulation under Clinton. The same combination of corporatists,"centrist s", low information voters, Dem. partisans and true believers will help support this bill. And yes, some intelligent people (RJ Eskow) who simply interpret things differently and see a base to be improved upon support this bill.

But 10 years from now we're going to look back (just like we did with NAFTA and deregulation) and wonder what the fuck happened. And I sincerely hope I'm wrong, you have to understand that point. I'm not rooting for failure, especially since my personal situation will be dire if that ends up being the case. I'd rather read a message from you reading "I told you so" while enjoying affordable, solid insurance coverage.

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 08:08:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"A LOT of people are incredibly half-hearted in their "support" for this bill, arguing that half a loaf of moldy bread is better than no bread."

This I agree with.  In fact, that is close to my position.  I think all liberals support the public option, expanded medicare, and/or single-payer.

But, look, we live in reality not a video game. Look at the Whip count going on in the House right now.  It's a struggle to get to the 216 in the more progressive chamber for this bill, with all the opposition coming from the Right.  Do you really think we would get to 216 adding the public option?  We had to outlaw abortion just to get it (and a weak version at that) past the first hurdle by like 2 votes.  

That's why you've seen Markos, MoveOn, and liberals as whole move so much since December.  That's how it works, you fight, fight, fight then at some point you gotta go with what you got.  We didn't get everything, but we did get a lot.  We won the most important point - that Health Care is a right and not a priviledge.

Also, this is just not comparable to NAFTA in anyway whatsover.  I just wrote the post "You're Not A Progressive If You're Not Pro-Union".  I'm sure you can guess my position on that, as well as what I'm sure Markos, MoveOn and progressives as whole would be.  Progressives don't support NAFTA and didn't support it then.  However, we do support the passage of this bill.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/18/2010 08:41:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]

While there are several factors motivating people into supporting this bill, don't underestimate partisan politics. I used to think that applied more to the Republicans, but I've learned over the last year that's not the case.

A LOT of people are partly or largely influenced by the fact that Republicans are (or appearing to in some cases, more on that later) and nut-job right wingers are fighting against healthcare reform. You know, smearing it with buillshit about death panels, abortion, socialism, communism, government takeover, etc.

That makes liberals much more inclined to support the reform (regardless of the actual merits of the bill), and the same goes with many moderate Dems who are already inclined to believe in compromise, etc. Granted, some moderates get scared by the right wing rhetoric, but you get my point.

by Tom Hanc on 03/18/2010 09:04:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We'll see how much your -- and others' -- support for this bill helps Democrats in November.  Most of you are supporting this legislation because you're afraid not to.  You're afraid or what would have happened to Democrats if the bill hadn't been passed, and you're not thinking what will happen because it has been passed.

What's worse is that you're not thinking about what will happen to the country because of the passage of this bill.  Mounting national and personal debt.  Growing poverty and disparity of income between the rich and the poor.  And thousands still dying for no other reason than that they don't have enough money.

And you call yourself a "liberal."

by EveningStarNM on 03/22/2010 10:39:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]
is a massive income distribution to the poor.  Out of the 32 million that will get insurance, 16 million of them are from the expansion of Medicaid (public insurance) and CHIP from which most of money is coming from eliminating Medicare Advantage (private insurance subsidized by the public) and additional taxes on those making over 200k.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/22/2010 08:48:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The poor are not the people who get the money.  This program is a massive redistribution of wealth to the wealthy via the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

It's that particular denial that causes me to have the most disrespect for you.

by EveningStarNM on 03/23/2010 01:05:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll get over the lack of respect from a retard.

It's a fact that 16 of the 32 new insureds will be on Medicaid or CHIP according to the CBO.  It's a fact the vast majority of the spending goes to lower income individuals and is raised from raising the Medicare taxes on individuals making over 200,000.

I'm right, you're wrong.  Deal with it.

My website: History By Day
Follow my on twitter @historyday.

by HistoryByDay on 03/23/2010 06:39:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]