the tax rates are what they are, increasing them significantly can only have a negative effect on the economy.  Nothing i have heard, studied or imagined which change that simple macroeconomic effect.  Raising taxes reduces economic activity.

Certainly it will help initially with the deficit, but the deficit is secondary to jobs.  Without jobs you can't reduce the deficit.  Classic chicken and egg problem.  In this case nothing will improve before the job outlook does.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/04/2010 10:26:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
these are basic accounting and economic facts. The low tax rates are what have driven 20% of our economy into bank and wall street speculation and side bets, while away from the rest of the economy. That money needs to be taken from wall street and put back into the sytem. The tax structure along with the CFMA have made trading paper very profitable.

That is where the rubber meets the road. We need to put back the road blocks.

by sisco66 on 09/04/2010 10:36:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Economics is a lot more complicated than "Lower taxes = More Jobs". Our current tax rates are ridiculously low for the upper income brackets and when they're allowed to stockpile that much money then they use that money for more lucrative speculation instead of riskier investment.  They also end up saving more money (percentage wise) than any other income brackets which takes money out of the system.

 

You're right in saying that Tax increases certainly wont "solve" the problem, but it's one step necessary to begin moving us in the right direction. 

by Mestilf on 09/04/2010 05:00:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
tax increases would solve those problems

by sisco66 on 09/04/2010 08:52:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]

you want to take away people's money to prevent them from gambling.  Instead, you are really just jealous.  People that gamble(speculate) have an illness.  Whether you take their money or not, they will still gamble(lucrative speculation).

Our current tax rates are not ridiculously low.  You have to look at the share of taxes to GDP. Historically it has been about the same as today.  What is lower is corporate taxes.


http://jessescrossroadscafe .blogspot.com/2010/08/us-ta xes-as-percent-of-gdp.html

Higher taxes only equals higher revenues during the first year, after that the rich adjust their investments to avoid taxes.  You can watch their money fly offshore into tax havens.  Would you rather have the rich people move their money offshore and have the economic crisis deepen or keep it onshore and encourage them to invest it in job creating activities.

That is intelligent fiscal policy.  I am not saying you can't raise taxes a little, but you're acting like a child who sees a big piggy bank and wants it for himself.  It's a mirage.

The only thing that should be increased are corporate taxes for companies that offshore.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/04/2010 09:10:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I am not sure what you are trying to say. Between the 1930's and 1970's taxes were much higher and it prevented the speculative boom bust cycle that Regan unleashed in the 1980's, and Clinton compounded in the late 1990's allowing Bush to throw gasoline on it in the 2000's.

It's not about revenues, it's about deterring or promoting greed, corruption and speculative bubbles. People are inherently evil when given access to unlimited money and power. FDR had this all figured out. We strayed from the plan and ended up right back in the same shit hole.


by sisco66 on 09/04/2010 09:38:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
What were the total tax collections as a percentage of GDP?  That's the important number, pissing and moaning about how people spend their own money is a waste of time.  You can't seriously promote the idea that high taxes are needed to punish wealthy investors because you don't like what they do with their money.  I am sure that wealthy investors will fund progressive candidates, not.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/05/2010 02:32:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]
dude, the point is that wall street is not spending their money they are stealing yours via prop trading, flash trading, buying regulators ect....and to make it all worse they are doing this at 15% or less.

Yes the chart shows that overall percentages have stayed the same but the % of income that the wealthy has paid has gone way down. You need to look at the indivdual brackets and the effects on boom bust cycles and national debt.

by sisco66 on 09/05/2010 04:59:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think you need to look at indvidual rates, the composite thing loses the jist of it. Taking it back to 1900 would also show a better history.

by sisco66 on 09/04/2010 09:47:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
...with our money. That is one of the big problems. Or just plain stealing it.

by sisco66 on 09/04/2010 09:59:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
they gamble with their own money.  The Democrats chose to bail them out.  What are you complaining about?  The Democrats bailing them out or the fact that the American public elected a bunch of spineless bastards?

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/05/2010 02:34:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
bailed them out under Bush. Obama has stayed the course, as in keeping the car in the ditch.

I have been doing nothing but complaining about it. You know that. My personal opinion is that everyone who took part in the bailouts, the rule and law changes leading to the bailouts and the cover ups of all the above should be beaten, hung, shot and then quartered.

.....and I am not kidding.

by sisco66 on 09/05/2010 05:20:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]

@mcamelyne

 "you want to take away people's money to prevent them from gambling."

 It's not about taking peoples money away, it's about social responsibility. If you want to make money in this country, you are directly tied to it's well being. Also, whether you're speculating or investing, you're still gambling with that money. I don't want to stop people from gambling, I want to discourage excessive and unnecessary risk and encourage investment.

 

"Instead, you are really just jealous." 

 Lol, this is just cheap. Speculation doesn't create value in the economy, I don't believe people should be able to create massive fortunes without adding value to an economy. That's the very foundation of Capitalism. Excessive speculation simply fuels bubbles and creates market panics when firms screw up.

 "People that gamble(speculate) have an illness.  Whether you take their money or not, they will still gamble(lucrative speculation)."

 I don't have a problem with Speculation in and of itself, it's a useful tool to hedge the market. I don't think it should be stopped all together, my goal would be to discourage excessive speculation.

"Our current tax rates are not ridiculously low." 

Yes, they are.  When you're taxed less for massive earnings made by speculation than you would be actually producing something, there's something wrong with our tax policy.

"You have to look at the share of taxes to GDP. Historically it has been about the same as today." 

 You also have to look at individual income tax brackets and how they're made up. Because of tax policy over the past few decades the top income brackets have seen huge increases in income which they're more likely to save. This takes spending power away from the middle class and fuels excessive speculation.It also encourages the middle class to take on dept as a means of increasing their spending power.

"Higher taxes only equals higher revenues during the first year"

Simply not true. 

 "after that the rich adjust their investments to avoid taxes.  You can watch their money fly offshore into tax havens."

Tax havens only work as a loophole. Attempts to close those loopholes are often met by Republicans crying "job killing tax increase." 

  "Would you rather have the rich people move their money offshore and have the economic crisis deepen or keep it onshore and encourage them to invest it in job creating activities."

Setting up offshore accounts doesn't make you immune to US taxes. And simply because you move money to offshore accounts doesn't mean it's suddenly never able to come back into the US.

  "That is intelligent fiscal policy."

You haven't made any suggestions.

  "I am not saying you can't raise taxes a little, but you're acting like a child who sees a big piggy bank and wants it for himself.  It's a mirage."

 Excuse me? I never said we needed to crank the tax rates up to 11. I said they're ridiculously low and need raising. Fact is, big business isn't going to run off to Somalia every time you raise taxes in the US. Our economy is simply to big and even in this climate has huge amounts of spending power comparative to other countries. Raising certain tax rates like carried interest, just to throw one out at random,  is necessary SOMETIMES. And this would be one of those times. There's nothing childish about that.

 "The only thing that should be increased are corporate taxes for companies that offshore."

I agree. But it's not the ONLY thing that could or should be done. 

by Mestilf on 09/05/2010 06:40:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]

in the US.  The US is founded on Lockeian principles, not Rousseau's ideas.  You make a huge leap in logic without showing how the American people will get there.

Simply saying rich people have a social responsibility is not enough.  Sure people would like rich folks to pay more, but ask them individually and they don't feel they should pay more.

You are like the crazy man standing on a wooden crate on the street railing against rich people having money. Everybody will just walk right on by.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/06/2010 03:45:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Until the situation gets so desperate that the vast majority of the underprivileged decide that whatever social contract they are the involuntary party to really isnt doing them any good and they decide to dispence with the intricacies of fine print and decide to submit their revisions in a bold font.
I guess we leave it up to the wealthy as to how far they wish to stretch the good will of the proletariat?
It may not be much longer before the wage earners suddenly start to wonder just what benefit the current patricians are actually providing them. Employment certainly isnt one of them.

by SalemP on 09/06/2010 04:14:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]

The rich control the military.  The vast majority of people will be set upon one another long before they go after the rich. 

Several recent controversies, the mosque in NY being one, were paid and financed by Fox News.  Looks like they are making the news now, not just reporting it with the goal of setting people against one another.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/06/2010 04:29:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
is a self fullfilling prophecy that leads to revolution. The outcome of that revolution no one knows. But more than likely it will just be another in the continuing cycle of Animal Farm.

by sisco66 on 09/06/2010 08:52:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
what a revolution will actually look like in an information age.
I really must get around to reading some Ayn Rand. If only to get some clue about how that mindset works.

by SalemP on 09/06/2010 09:41:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
if you don't play by their rules, they threaten to take their ball and go home.

by sisco66 on 09/06/2010 09:48:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yup, unfortunately, while labour is so divided and so over supplied that is a very real option for a$shole objectivists.
Education to solve the oversupply, collective bargaining to cure the division.
Sounds so deceptively simple to solve.

by SalemP on 09/06/2010 10:09:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

 "The US is founded on Lockeian principles, not Rousseau's ideas.  You make a huge leap in logic without showing how the American people will get there."

Lol... I don't even know where to begin with this. What did you just learn those names in history class? Society by it's very nature requires individuals to work together towards a common goal. In our case it's the progression of the species. We don't need this to be told to us, and we don't need it to be "Okay'd" by those who wrote the Constitution because it's self evident. Government is merely the way we protect, organize and further our SOCIETIES interest. If you feel that the government doesn't represent you, you have two main options available; stay and try to change things, or leave. Everyone, rich or poor has an invested interest, and therefore a responsibility in keeping our society and by extension, our economy, safe and functioning. That means the government by it's very nature has a responsibility to raise or lower tax rates (among it's other powers) to stabilize itself and our economy.

 

"Simply saying rich people have a social responsibility is not enough.  Sure people would like rich folks to pay more, but ask them individually and they don't feel they should pay more."

Well that's nice but I don't really care what they think. If you live in this country, work in this country, make money in this country, you have a responsibility to protect the society that allowed you to earn that money.  You may not agree but what you think doesn't really matter. Because when it comes down to the whole "Collective vs Individual" argument, the individual doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's the COLLECTIVE that built this society. It was the COLLECTIVE that agreed in 1776 to declare independence from the British. It's the COLLECTIVE that protects your rights and without the collective you're all alone in the woods. Do you think nature cares about your rights? Do you think nature is going to pay your salary?

Now we can argue all day and night about the ethics behind it all, or about when the collective is right or wrong but that's a whole different discussion entirely. 

 "You are like the crazy man standing on a wooden crate on the street railing against rich people having money. Everybody will just walk right on by."

 

As I said previously, I have nothing against "rich people". If you have an idea, and you make a lot of money off that idea, that's awesome! I'm really happy for you. But that doesn't mean you're entitled to anything. You never were and never will be. It's the collective that decides whether or not they want to buy your product or service, and at some point you had to use the collective capital of our society to turn your idea into a reality. It could be as simple as driving on the publicly funded roads to meet an investor or taking out a Government funded grant so you can afford to go to college. Or as complicated as using the collective knowledge of our species to build something or solve a problem.

by Mestilf on 09/06/2010 10:39:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

you represent less than 15% of Americans.  Spout all you want, but America is not even close to being the place of your dreams.

America was founded on the principles of John Locke and so was the constitution.  The Republicans and blue dog Democrats are 100% behind them.

I am socialist and understand where you are coming from, but I am also a realist and a pragmatist.  I recognize, we are at least a generation away from ever considering what you are saying to be the American way.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/06/2010 11:24:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think there was a guy named jefferson and another guy who wrote some book way back in the 1700's that had something to do with the founding of our country.

"The Rights of Man", Thomas Paine

mc, sometime I wonder what planet you are living on :).

by sisco66 on 09/07/2010 09:56:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]

not the rights of the society.  America is founded on individualism, while I may not personally accept that, I must recognize its influence on society and culture.

There is no way that godless Liberals are going to change America to be the country they want.  Those ignorant backward religious cavemen are always going to be standing in the way.

What a Liberal sees as so blindingly obvious is met with skepticism by the average American.  Even after you hit him with a two-by-four the average American will still not be sure.  It's called pragmatism and it's what keeps Americans from killing each other.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/08/2010 02:01:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Jefferson was terrified of returning to a wealthy ruling class. Paine was a big influence on both Jefferson and Washington. You have been fed too much propaganda. There is always two sides of a coin.

Read some experts from the rights of man or common sense. They are about the commons and a social safety net.

by sisco66 on 09/08/2010 06:10:07 AM EST

[ Parent ]
and Paine was just propaganda.  The real American people are somewhere in between.  As long as Americans are pragmatic, ain't nothing gonna change.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/08/2010 06:30:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Jeffersonian Democracy. Paine's propaganda led to the revolutionary war. Obviously, all sides had influence but if you look at what came out of the first few decades, corporations were very limited, and so was speculation. I don't know the whole time line off hand but there have been some peaks and valleys with this.

That said, the banks have beeen at the center of our economic rollercoaster. Too much for this thread. Anyway, it was not until Delaware relaxed it's corporate and banking laws and Regan removed the upper tax braket that things got out of control.

I have a hard time figuring out your position. Money borrowed from social security and stolen from stockholders, pension plans and 401k is not earned. Let alone that created out of thin air through rigged speculation, flash and prop trading.

It's all criminal and the fallout is coming to a head.

by sisco66 on 09/08/2010 05:01:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

It doesn't make sense to destroy everything and rebuild it back up.  These guys are not God and the risk that things could go beyond control is to great.

Nobody is going to raid 401k's.  Pension plans are underfunded because interest rates are too low and stock market is in the toilet.  Companies will try to bail on their pension plans.  Not a surprise.

Who's borrowed the money for the markets?  The government? Hedgers?  Are you claiming tax cuts took money from these markets and transferred it to the rich?  That's a stretch.

The rich will make more money getting America moving again.  Right now all the unemployed are just a huge drag on activity and profits.  This return to feudalism perspective is nonsense.  Companies make more money when people have more disposable income to consume things.

Instead the rich are going to start clamoring for infrastructure spending as loudly as everyone else.  We don't need more taxes, we need more jobs. End free-trade.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 05:55:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Matt Taibi can do a better job of explaining this than I can. Read his stuff on Goldman Sachs and you will better understand. Dylan Rattigan referes to a lot of it but never explains it.

I love our discussion and defeneded your positions on a post that went after you but lately when I say apple you come back with brick.

by sisco66 on 09/09/2010 07:30:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
economics. 

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 08:20:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I just think you are missing what is actual going on. It's not simple investment or even market economics. The whole game is rigged, and when that stops working in their favor they change the rules of the game just as everyone esle goes "all in".

That is what Goldman Sachs, the NY Fed, Treasury and SEC have been doing. Right now Goldman Sachs is borrowing from the Fed at 0.25 or less and then buying treasuries at 2-3% and that is just the above board stuff. We are beyond all bounds of reason.

by sisco66 on 09/09/2010 03:58:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Japan, that -0-% interest rates have a negative effect on the economy.  Without any real returns, savers are penalized and banks are encouraged just to buy treasuries and not take risk in the marketplace.

There is an orderly process to business and when rates are zero, they can only go up so that causes businesses to have in strange ways.  Instead a floor of 2 or 3% is more natural.  If the Fed raised the rates to 2%, businesses would not be impacted, only banks profits.

There are about 1,500 banks in the US on life support.  The Fed is avoiding cleaning them up by subsidizing them with these interest profits.  Zombie banks hurt Japan and they will hurt us.

As for Goldman Sachs, you are crying at windmills.  Nothing is going to change there until you get a Non-Republican and Non-Democrat in the White House.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 10:29:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Now were are getting somewhere. Unfortunately, the banks that went under and most of the ones in trouble now are not getting help from the Fed. At least not the type the investment houses like Goldman Sachs, BOA, Citi and JP Morgan are getting.

When Ben, Tim, Paulson, Blankfin and Dimon created the crash by raising rates, changing mark to market rules and systematic insider short selling they used Shelia Bear (sp?) to take down banks/thrifts to take down Indy Mac, WaMu and Country Wide as well as Bear Sterns and Leehman Brothers cherry picking the assets and transfering the shit debt to the treas, fed and GSE's.

It was a fucking coup, and they all should be shot.

by sisco66 on 09/10/2010 06:51:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/10/2010 08:00:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]
can we kill them? or better yet, work them to death in a mine somewhere? China maybe?

by sisco66 on 09/13/2010 09:37:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
if you physically punish them, then they can cry about how they are being punished for only wanting to be rich.  If you just leave them poor as a church mouse, they have to go through life living amongst all those they despise.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/14/2010 04:04:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Take BP for an example, their greed caused people to die. And this was not the first time. You can track BP back to the Shaw of Iran, Iraq and numerous spills/explosions that either killed people directly or gave them cancer.

Goldman Sachs and it's hinchmen are not to far off from BP.

Execution is freedom of expression.

by sisco66 on 09/14/2010 06:01:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
justify Pol Pot's killings.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/14/2010 10:11:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
it is a slippery slope. But if the feds won't enforce the law then we have to

by sisco66 on 09/15/2010 06:33:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
LOL TURNS OUT COMMENTS MOVE MORE TO THE RIGHT AS YOU REPLY TO PEOPLE

by Wifflum on 09/14/2010 09:16:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]

"Terrorism is the war for the poor and powerless. War is the terrorism for the rich and powerful."

by JamesStevensDigArt on 09/04/2010 08:13:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
is that since Ronnie we have been throwing money up in the air in the form of tax cuts and hoping that it lands in the right spot, rather than targeting specific sustainable industries for growth. The ROI on the Bush tax cuts alone was an 80% loss. Imagine if we had taken that and invested it in green tech here at home....

thanks for the help

by sisco66 on 09/04/2010 08:51:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]

you anything.  What matters is total tax collections, not the tax rate.  The deficit went up under Bush because he fought two wars and increased entitlements whilst not raising taxes to pay for them.

That's easy to fix.  Let the Bush tax cuts expire 100%, end the wars and increase medicare taxes by 2%.

That would not be the draconian tax increase that everybody wants, nor would it change social security.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/04/2010 09:15:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Except that no one is proposing "Draconian" tax increases that you claim "everybody wants". We don't need to go back to the days of 70-90% but we need to get it back to 50% or more... You know, like back in the days when we could balance the budget.

I mean god DAMN look at that GDP/Debt stat. That's ROUGH.

We were fucking gravy train until Reagan came and fucked it all up.

"Terrorism is the war for the poor and powerless. War is the terrorism for the rich and powerful."

by JamesStevensDigArt on 09/04/2010 10:04:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"We were fucking gravy train until Reagan came and fucked it all up."

....and Amen.

by sisco66 on 09/05/2010 05:01:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]