"The US is founded on Lockeian principles, not Rousseau's ideas.  You make a huge leap in logic without showing how the American people will get there."

Lol... I don't even know where to begin with this. What did you just learn those names in history class? Society by it's very nature requires individuals to work together towards a common goal. In our case it's the progression of the species. We don't need this to be told to us, and we don't need it to be "Okay'd" by those who wrote the Constitution because it's self evident. Government is merely the way we protect, organize and further our SOCIETIES interest. If you feel that the government doesn't represent you, you have two main options available; stay and try to change things, or leave. Everyone, rich or poor has an invested interest, and therefore a responsibility in keeping our society and by extension, our economy, safe and functioning. That means the government by it's very nature has a responsibility to raise or lower tax rates (among it's other powers) to stabilize itself and our economy.

 

"Simply saying rich people have a social responsibility is not enough.  Sure people would like rich folks to pay more, but ask them individually and they don't feel they should pay more."

Well that's nice but I don't really care what they think. If you live in this country, work in this country, make money in this country, you have a responsibility to protect the society that allowed you to earn that money.  You may not agree but what you think doesn't really matter. Because when it comes down to the whole "Collective vs Individual" argument, the individual doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's the COLLECTIVE that built this society. It was the COLLECTIVE that agreed in 1776 to declare independence from the British. It's the COLLECTIVE that protects your rights and without the collective you're all alone in the woods. Do you think nature cares about your rights? Do you think nature is going to pay your salary?

Now we can argue all day and night about the ethics behind it all, or about when the collective is right or wrong but that's a whole different discussion entirely. 

 "You are like the crazy man standing on a wooden crate on the street railing against rich people having money. Everybody will just walk right on by."

 

As I said previously, I have nothing against "rich people". If you have an idea, and you make a lot of money off that idea, that's awesome! I'm really happy for you. But that doesn't mean you're entitled to anything. You never were and never will be. It's the collective that decides whether or not they want to buy your product or service, and at some point you had to use the collective capital of our society to turn your idea into a reality. It could be as simple as driving on the publicly funded roads to meet an investor or taking out a Government funded grant so you can afford to go to college. Or as complicated as using the collective knowledge of our species to build something or solve a problem.

by Mestilf on 09/06/2010 10:39:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]

you represent less than 15% of Americans.  Spout all you want, but America is not even close to being the place of your dreams.

America was founded on the principles of John Locke and so was the constitution.  The Republicans and blue dog Democrats are 100% behind them.

I am socialist and understand where you are coming from, but I am also a realist and a pragmatist.  I recognize, we are at least a generation away from ever considering what you are saying to be the American way.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/06/2010 11:24:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think there was a guy named jefferson and another guy who wrote some book way back in the 1700's that had something to do with the founding of our country.

"The Rights of Man", Thomas Paine

mc, sometime I wonder what planet you are living on :).

by sisco66 on 09/07/2010 09:56:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]

not the rights of the society.  America is founded on individualism, while I may not personally accept that, I must recognize its influence on society and culture.

There is no way that godless Liberals are going to change America to be the country they want.  Those ignorant backward religious cavemen are always going to be standing in the way.

What a Liberal sees as so blindingly obvious is met with skepticism by the average American.  Even after you hit him with a two-by-four the average American will still not be sure.  It's called pragmatism and it's what keeps Americans from killing each other.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/08/2010 02:01:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Jefferson was terrified of returning to a wealthy ruling class. Paine was a big influence on both Jefferson and Washington. You have been fed too much propaganda. There is always two sides of a coin.

Read some experts from the rights of man or common sense. They are about the commons and a social safety net.

by sisco66 on 09/08/2010 06:10:07 AM EST

[ Parent ]
and Paine was just propaganda.  The real American people are somewhere in between.  As long as Americans are pragmatic, ain't nothing gonna change.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/08/2010 06:30:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Jeffersonian Democracy. Paine's propaganda led to the revolutionary war. Obviously, all sides had influence but if you look at what came out of the first few decades, corporations were very limited, and so was speculation. I don't know the whole time line off hand but there have been some peaks and valleys with this.

That said, the banks have beeen at the center of our economic rollercoaster. Too much for this thread. Anyway, it was not until Delaware relaxed it's corporate and banking laws and Regan removed the upper tax braket that things got out of control.

I have a hard time figuring out your position. Money borrowed from social security and stolen from stockholders, pension plans and 401k is not earned. Let alone that created out of thin air through rigged speculation, flash and prop trading.

It's all criminal and the fallout is coming to a head.

by sisco66 on 09/08/2010 05:01:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

It doesn't make sense to destroy everything and rebuild it back up.  These guys are not God and the risk that things could go beyond control is to great.

Nobody is going to raid 401k's.  Pension plans are underfunded because interest rates are too low and stock market is in the toilet.  Companies will try to bail on their pension plans.  Not a surprise.

Who's borrowed the money for the markets?  The government? Hedgers?  Are you claiming tax cuts took money from these markets and transferred it to the rich?  That's a stretch.

The rich will make more money getting America moving again.  Right now all the unemployed are just a huge drag on activity and profits.  This return to feudalism perspective is nonsense.  Companies make more money when people have more disposable income to consume things.

Instead the rich are going to start clamoring for infrastructure spending as loudly as everyone else.  We don't need more taxes, we need more jobs. End free-trade.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 05:55:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Matt Taibi can do a better job of explaining this than I can. Read his stuff on Goldman Sachs and you will better understand. Dylan Rattigan referes to a lot of it but never explains it.

I love our discussion and defeneded your positions on a post that went after you but lately when I say apple you come back with brick.

by sisco66 on 09/09/2010 07:30:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
economics. 

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 08:20:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I just think you are missing what is actual going on. It's not simple investment or even market economics. The whole game is rigged, and when that stops working in their favor they change the rules of the game just as everyone esle goes "all in".

That is what Goldman Sachs, the NY Fed, Treasury and SEC have been doing. Right now Goldman Sachs is borrowing from the Fed at 0.25 or less and then buying treasuries at 2-3% and that is just the above board stuff. We are beyond all bounds of reason.

by sisco66 on 09/09/2010 03:58:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Japan, that -0-% interest rates have a negative effect on the economy.  Without any real returns, savers are penalized and banks are encouraged just to buy treasuries and not take risk in the marketplace.

There is an orderly process to business and when rates are zero, they can only go up so that causes businesses to have in strange ways.  Instead a floor of 2 or 3% is more natural.  If the Fed raised the rates to 2%, businesses would not be impacted, only banks profits.

There are about 1,500 banks in the US on life support.  The Fed is avoiding cleaning them up by subsidizing them with these interest profits.  Zombie banks hurt Japan and they will hurt us.

As for Goldman Sachs, you are crying at windmills.  Nothing is going to change there until you get a Non-Republican and Non-Democrat in the White House.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/09/2010 10:29:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Now were are getting somewhere. Unfortunately, the banks that went under and most of the ones in trouble now are not getting help from the Fed. At least not the type the investment houses like Goldman Sachs, BOA, Citi and JP Morgan are getting.

When Ben, Tim, Paulson, Blankfin and Dimon created the crash by raising rates, changing mark to market rules and systematic insider short selling they used Shelia Bear (sp?) to take down banks/thrifts to take down Indy Mac, WaMu and Country Wide as well as Bear Sterns and Leehman Brothers cherry picking the assets and transfering the shit debt to the treas, fed and GSE's.

It was a fucking coup, and they all should be shot.

by sisco66 on 09/10/2010 06:51:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/10/2010 08:00:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]
can we kill them? or better yet, work them to death in a mine somewhere? China maybe?

by sisco66 on 09/13/2010 09:37:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
if you physically punish them, then they can cry about how they are being punished for only wanting to be rich.  If you just leave them poor as a church mouse, they have to go through life living amongst all those they despise.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/14/2010 04:04:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Take BP for an example, their greed caused people to die. And this was not the first time. You can track BP back to the Shaw of Iran, Iraq and numerous spills/explosions that either killed people directly or gave them cancer.

Goldman Sachs and it's hinchmen are not to far off from BP.

Execution is freedom of expression.

by sisco66 on 09/14/2010 06:01:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
justify Pol Pot's killings.

Don't waste your vote, vote Green or Independent in the next election.

by mcamelyne on 09/14/2010 10:11:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
it is a slippery slope. But if the feds won't enforce the law then we have to

by sisco66 on 09/15/2010 06:33:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
LOL TURNS OUT COMMENTS MOVE MORE TO THE RIGHT AS YOU REPLY TO PEOPLE

by Wifflum on 09/14/2010 09:16:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]