The Hillary Rhetoric

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You hear a lot of rhetoric about Hillary vis a vis her leadership, her vision, her electability, etc. She is not my dream candidate, but let's looks at what her presidency would be about and whether anyone else would actually be able to accomplish more truly progressive goals.

A lot of the progressive left has a real problem with Hillary and will work to prevent her victory in the primaries. But what would her presidency be like? Probably a lot like her husband's. He left things to be desired, for sure, but can we actually do better? And despite the media hype on all sides, she is indeed electable. She has the highest favorables of all the major candidates in both parties. It matters not that 44% do not like her. Those are the folks who vote republican anyway.

1. She is pro-choice; no more draconian court nominees.

2. She supports due process; POWs will be treated fairly, no more spying on citizens, etc.

3. She is a multilateralist on foreign policy; no more cowboy diplomacy; bye-bye neocons.

4. She is environmentalist, not to the degree much of the progressive left is, but pretty much in line with the public on key issues. She will support greenhouse gas caps and research into alternative fuels. 

5. She would repeal the Bush tax cuts.

6. She is pro-stem cell research; time to catch up with the rest of the world.

7. She will support free speech and net neutrality. She has even backed off from her recent tirades about video games, pushing instead for more parental oversight. (Progressive Gore supporters should remember that Tipper led the charge against the music industry way back when—so no higher moral ground on that account. Sometimes even liberal moms freak out about their kids—the test is whether they come to their senses in time.)

8. She will end the Iraq war and not start another one. (It is convenient for Obama supporters to point out that he did not vote for the war. Well, he was not in the Senate at the time and he has shown a tendency not to take strong positions, either, so its empty rhetoric for him to say now he was always against it and would not have voted for it. He also declined to filibuster Alito, calling that an extreme move. He has demonstrated quite clearly that he is not even remotely a leader.)

8. She will work to replace no child left behind with something that works. 

9. She has demonstrated her ability to work with members of both parties and is actually widely respected amongst her senate colleagues.

10. She will support immigration reform.

I could go on with this list, but these 10 alone are a pretty decent agenda. Personally, I would prefer Edwards, but I doubt he has a chance. Same with Wes Clark, my other fave. Obama, OTOH, does nothing for me. Great speaker, good looks, no gravitas. That's right. While none of the major Dem candidates have significant experience in elected office, some have gravitas and others don't. She may have led less than she should have these past six years, but Hillary does have gravitas and will be able to get things done.

Finally, let's say that someone more truly progressive got the nod. First, I actually don't consider any of the majors to be much more progressive than Hillary, all issue considered. Kucinich and Feingold; those guys are progressives. But let's get real here. And even if one of them could win, the fact is that neither the public nor congress would not support an agenda that is more socialist or green than what Hillary would give us. Such a president would spend four years either pushing legislation that failed or end up compromising in the middle where Hillary would be from the outset. And that leftwing  president would probably not get re-elected if he or she failed to accomplish anything that made real changes in the life of middle-class Americans. Bill did that and Hillary could, too.

Clinton/Clark in 2008. 

P.S. One last word for the Cenk and the other Gore afficionados. If he is so wise, how come he picked that sniveling little toad, Lieberman, to be his VP? Bad advice? A president needs to be able to make the right decision when the pressure is on. The fact that he has been so impassioned and right on during his "retirement" just shows me that he does the public a better service in that role.

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I am very concerned that the idealist progressives (I consider myself a pragmatic progressive) will sabotage our chances in 2008 by sending someone to the ballot who cannot win. We need to be careful that the same people who threw their weight to Nader in 2000 (and thus the election to the shrub) will make an analogous mistake this time in the Dem primaries. Progressive stands for progress and progresss can be incremental. I know that's hard for the immediate gratification crowd to swallow. But the conservatives patiently took over our government over a 40 year period and we need to patiently take it back. A true progressive who wants to make real lasting changes would follow their model and work for idealist candidates at the local level and let them work their way up in national stature rather than trying to thrust them on a basically centrist populace.

by Heretic on 01/23/2007 11:27:44 AM EST


I think John Edwards cannot win unless he reinvents himself.

I think John Kerry cannot win.

I think Dennis Kucinich cannot win.

Obama, Clark, and Hillary all can win.

by jarett on 01/24/2007 12:57:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]

"But what would her presidency be like? Probably a lot like her husband's"

Now, I don't really find Hilary attractive but if she has oral sex with a female intern, that would just be awesome on principle.  (Assuming she can find a hotter one that Monica.) 

by ProfRich on 01/23/2007 11:34:56 AM EST


Are you kidding, there'd be orgies in the White House everyday, the American family would break down and family values would go to hell along with TV, the web and the national conversation on morality. Girls would get crazy ideas about wearing the pantsuits in the family, and Hillary would be grooming Chelsea for what 2016 or something, I don't even know how old she is, maybe 2020. Armies of cloned lesbian superempowered Gap employees would march through the streets of the capital in pleated well-fitted but not too revealing khakis and faux denim shirts carrying signs saying "Down with Men" and "Oprah Rules! She rules man" and anti-gay rhetoric and anti-stem cell research talk would give way to Mormon style group gay marriage, lesbians cloning babies without men and raising children by themselves, gay tweens coming out and be accepted by their peers, and God forbid, lesbian book clubs for out soccer moms at Barnes and Nobles sponsored by Starbucks. She'll nominate Bill for the Supreme Court after he's U.S. ambassador to Iran, reinstate his law license, and tear down all of Laura's wall paper, while making fun of her interior decorating to Laura's close friends.

Of course being the superduper supermom she is, she'll balance the budget, work with congress, pay down the national debt, fix social security without privatizing it, create a national health care system, get rid of election fraud and pay-as-you-go lobbying, ride our economy through a downturn in housing, keep inflation in check, create a national jobs program to rebuild New Orleans, bring sexy back, crush the F.C.C. and the moral majority, bring America back to the forefront in technology, solve poverty, global warming and our international image problem, find Osama Bin Laden and the missing data connecting him to the Bushes, remove the shroud of secrecy from our government, fix the intelligence agencies, and ensure full transparency with the public, knock off big brother and put the NSA on a good leash, bring our troops home, stabilize the middle east, bring Israel and the Palestine's back to the table, fix our trade imbalances and get supper ready for the big dog, all with a smile, her style and grace, cum on her face, and 90 percent approval ratings.

Oral sex will once again be the main topic on talk shows, like it should be instead of war, oil supply, business ratios and boring things like the strategic petroleum reserve whatever the fuck that is right? It happens to be very destructive to the environment and is unnatural and damages salt caves, leaks into the surrounding ecosystem and is really only there in case of a post-nuclear war Dr. Strange love scenario. We could bring the price at the pump down to under a dollar if it was used effectively to combat OPEC with economic warfare instead of bombs.

by tiggerporn on 01/24/2007 05:54:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]

But there will be a significant increase in chicks dyking out?

Cause, if so, I am in. 

by ProfRich on 01/24/2007 10:00:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]
ya just might get it.

Sure, of course, when President Hillary rules there's going to be tons more dykes, but be afraid, be very afraid cause they're going to be Über hardcore dyke feminist bitches and they're going to stomp on you and your weak hormonal male mind and force you to read InStyle and eat organic foods and do other similarly horrible things like take walks in the park, get in touch with your sensitive feminine side, get your prostate check regularly and keep the toilet seat down. And and they're going to wire your eyes open like in A Clockwork Orange viddy well, and force you to watch Oprah, and I'm not even talking about the day time talk show, I'm talking about the after hours late night ones. And it's going to be like commie russia, but Oxygen is going to be the only channel on TV. And they're just going to march right over anyone who stands in their path, ball busting us blue balled boys into submission. It has already begun. Save us! Save us!

Oh and by the way, read your other post/argument with Acroso and I have to say I've always felt our, or I should say Bush's policy on terrorism is more like Whack-A-Mole than a video game. And now he's all like, come on, come on, gimme another play, come on just one more round, I promise I'm gonna nail that sucker this time.

by tiggerporn on 01/24/2007 12:19:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Of course he's also like the kid standing at the wack a mole game trying to bum another quarter so he can play.
"Hey mister do you have a quarter?"
Unfortunatly in this case it's not a quarter but a few more BILLION and he's not asking he's blackmailing us for it.
"If you don't give me the money you only put our troops lives in danger."

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 01/24/2007 12:27:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
If Prez Hilary means mean, manly bulldykes I am most definitely out!
I only support the crazy hot ones that look like high dollar strippers and hang out in extremely provacative lingerie 24/7.  You know the kind that answer the door when the pizza guy comes, hang out at rappers swimming pools and do those cool "Kids do the Darndest Things" videos with Snoop Dogg. 
You know, lesbians.

by ProfRich on 01/24/2007 04:22:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Ah, so it turns out for all your Don't Mess With Texas rhetoric, you are a liberal after all, prof. Just another flip flopping, side-changing, two sandwich eating can't keep your story straight liberal. I might have known.

But I think you might be confusing lipstick lesbians with P.H.A.T. bootay-boo, wet tank-top wearin', g-string hiked up over there hips, fake-nail, platform shoe wearin',  lip smackin', budanga-dang nizzle jizzle hos?  The main way to tell the difference is the onion booty. And oh hell, don't get me wrong, I'm all for the hos.

by tiggerporn on 01/25/2007 04:05:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]

We report you decide.

Crazy hot or manly bulldyke(s)? 

by MRFred on 01/25/2007 07:02:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I took my daughter to the NCAA Final Four Women's Basketball tournament one year, because she loves the game, and Tennessee was playing.

My God. I had no idea.
 
There were a lot of Hillary supporters in attendance. 

by KenTX on 01/25/2007 07:07:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Dear God,

I could end up in agreement with KenTx on something. No, come on man, the LadyVols are great. I coach girl's basketball and I'm a big supporter of women's athletics and the NCAA, let me just make clear that in everything I've said on this particular post, I'm joking, if it wasn't already clear. But ya, there is a certain culture in the wnba and women's college bball. Like I'm all calm when I'm saying this. Read: GOD HELP US! THERE ARE LESBIANS EVERYWHERE! THEY'RE TAKING OVER!

Ya know, as long as I don't have to know when to wear white and what the hell a mini-maxi is, and they keep March Madness on the air, go for it, we might as well have a woman president, the guys we have now certainly can't do any better, the fix they've got us in now.

BTW Fred, I happen to think that Mary Cheney is a rather, um, er, handsome woman.

by tiggerporn on 01/25/2007 07:48:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Speaking of the lady vols, I saw Bruce Pearl on ESPN completely painted without shirt at their game.

by acroso on 01/25/2007 05:59:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

for jokes here...ahem...

Lesbian basketball players dont " drive the lane" so to speak.

***** 

Q: Why do lesbians like whales so much?

A: Because they have 50 foot tongues and breath out of the top of their heads!

**** 

Q: What do you call a lesbian Eskimo?

A: A Klon-dike bar.

**** 

Q: Why don't fem lesbians go on dates?

A: Because it's hard to eat Jenny Craig when you've got Mary Kay on your face.

 

 Bad bing bada boom....

by MRFred on 01/25/2007 07:56:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
What do you have when you have 50 lesbians and 50 politicians in the same room.

100 people who don't do dick.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 01/26/2007 11:30:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I almost wrote in my intro, "but without the blowjobs," but then I realized that I wasn't really sure about that. :-)

by Heretic on 01/23/2007 11:43:24 AM EST


You said you weren't sure if Hilary would be Bill without the blowjobs.

I don't know if Hilary is giving anyone blowjobs, but I wonder if she is giving Bill blowjobs.  I am pretty sure if the entire world spent four years obsessing over some fat twentysomething polishing my knob my wife would impose a pussy embargo that would make me jealous of Cuba.

by ProfRich on 01/23/2007 12:35:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Iraq will be issue #1 again in 2008 so I hope Hillary is running on surrender otherwise she can kiss the Lib primary goodbye.

by acroso on 01/23/2007 12:41:21 PM EST


Not sure what this refers to. My guess would be that Hillary would largely support the goals of the Iraq Study Group. Redeploying troops outside the civil war zone, securing the borders, and working multilaterally with parties like Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia to broker a ceasefire. The war is already lost to the extent that the current justification has already failed. The government of Iraq is not a functioning democracy committed to peace. Even the Bush administration is looking into replacing the "freely" elected puppet Maliki with someone who can bring order to the area (sound familiar). Surrendur makes it sound like we will soon be speaking Arabic over here. The recent national intelligence estimate, whose release has been stalled for months, says in unequivocal terms that our presence there is creating more terrorists every day. So the idea that if we stay long enough to kill them all, then we will be safe, is ridiculous. The longer we stay, the more there will be when we finally go and they will hate us even more. If we can broker some sort of ceasefire that leads to increased stability and recovery of the Iraqi economy, all but the hardcore extremists will probably melt away. The primary base of al-qaeda is not in Iraq, anyway. It is in Pakistan, with elements probably still in Saudi Arabia, too (our supposed allies). Nothing we are doing "over there" is preventing them from fighting us "over here." No, we are just creating more recruits for them. I have no doubt they are planning to attack us again, but being in Iraq just makes it easier for them to find both funding and cannon fodder.

by Heretic on 01/23/2007 01:43:50 PM EST


"Redeploying troops"

Redeploying is a synonym for withdrawal. Withdrawing the troops before we finish the mission means we surrender. This is like debating the meaning of “is” or trying to refine illegal aliens as migrants.

 "The war is already lost to the extent that the current justification has already failed."

No no. The war is only lost if we elect a Democrat. Luckily we elected Bush. 

 

"The primary base of al-qaeda is not in Iraq, anyway. "

I don't think that's true anymore. We jsut recovered Al Qaeda documents planning a strike on the U.S. in Iraq. There is also no question that Al Qaeda is trying to force U.S. surrender in Iraq. Recently general Petraeus talked about how the dem resolution demanding surrender was encouraging Al Qaeda and insurgents. Why aren't we having resolutions demanding victory? (hint we elected Democrats.) 

by acroso on 01/23/2007 01:51:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"We jsut recovered Al Qaeda documents planning a strike on the U.S. in Iraq. There is also no question that Al Qaeda is trying to force U.S. surrender in Iraq. "

do you have a source for this? 

by alphasigmookie on 01/23/2007 03:27:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It was headlined on Drudge yesterday though for anyone else who read it.

by acroso on 01/23/2007 04:24:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Its funny how your links seem to break...or be bogus.

I doubt seriously if that lowlife Drudge or a reputable news organization ( excludes Fox) would have pulled:

We jsut (sic) recovered Al Qaeda documents planning a strike on the U.S. in Iraq. There is also no question that Al Qaeda is trying to force U.S. surrender in Iraq.

a story about a planned al Qaeda attack based on captured documents...unless of course it was fabricated...like you posts!

I am so so surprised that al Qeada is planning an attack on the US. Wow...that never would have occurred to us mere mortals... Thanks Drudge. Thanks Acroso...imagine that , al Qaeda wants to attack us.

Al Qaeda is trying to force U.S. surrender in Iraq. Now that is the most idiotic thing I have ever read. Again...like your posts

 

by MRFred on 01/23/2007 08:06:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Anytime someone mentions reputable news sources, I always think of Dan Rather using forged documents to Bush bash.

by acroso on 01/23/2007 08:19:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]

At least he didn't use forged documents to justify a war.
Like Bush did 

by MRFred on 01/23/2007 08:29:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]

nope can't find it anymore. But I found a good story from 1/22/07 

The U.S. killed 93 Al Qaeda linked terrorists in Iraq two days ago.

by acroso on 01/23/2007 04:28:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
he breaks out a jackhammer.
After getting completely depantsed in almost every thread over the last week arco casually informs us we have found Al-Qaeda had plans to attack U.S. in Iraq. 
Of course he is called on it and produces the above post. 
Lets break this post down.

The "good story" he gives us occupied the entire third hour of the Young Turks today which raises the question, "Does arco listen to the show?"  I assume not since a few days ago he explained a particularly decietful and vapid post with "thats what Hannity said this morning."  So there is a conflict.

Second, as Turk listeners know, the Al Qaeda cell in question was formed IN RESPONSE TO Bush's reckless foreign policy so it seems strange to use it to justify Bush's  reckless foriegn policy.
As for the "story" he was trying to prove.  He can't find it now (because it is total bullshit) but it was the headline on Drudge yesterday.  Somehow it is totally gone today even though Drudge keeps old stories up for a while.

So this means either arco is totally full of crap or this story was so illegitimate MATT DRUDGE pulled it off his site.

Now I have almost no respect for Matt Drudge but even I am going assume arco is the disingenuous one here.
It is also curious that arco didn't bother to make reference to the giant splash entitled "All the President's Men: 2007" or headlines like: " Bush Ratings Fall to Nixon Levels" or "Republican Opposition to Iraq Plan Grows". 
Once again, nice work arco.

(I can't believe I just stuck up for Drudge, I gotta go take a shower.)

by ProfRich on 01/23/2007 05:06:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I don't know what happened to the Drudge story.

As for the story on killing Al Qaeda in Iraq. The more Al Qaeda we kill there, the less we have to kill here in the U.S.A. The last point is Al Qaeda is seeking a major victory against the U.S.A. as a moral boost- and that boost is U.S. surrender in Iraq. 

by acroso on 01/23/2007 06:53:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]

That repubs seem to think there is a set number of terrorists (or Al-Qaeda in this case) and one we kill them all it will be done with once and for all hence the "we fight them over there so we don't hae to fight them over here."  This is, of course, fantastically stupid.

See, acro, terrorists aren't like, say, the levels in Street Fighter where you beat one, then the next, then the next until you finally win the game and go brag to yor friends (for the purpose of this conversation, pretend you have friends.  You are good at pretending.)

Terrorists are like those gates in Oblivion.  The more you kill the more they keep popping up.  They actually spawn as you kill them.  And the more you kill the harder they get.

I don't know if you are old enough to play T for Teen video games yet, but hopefully you get my point.

Although I am almost positive you don't. 

by ProfRich on 01/24/2007 09:59:16 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"That repubs seem to think there is a set number of terrorists (or Al-Qaeda in this case) and once we kill them all it will be done with once and for all hence the "we fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here."  This is, of course, fantastically stupid."


If you will allow me to respectfully disagree.

We are fighting al Qaeda in Iraq, and credible sources report that most of the al Qaeda fighters are coming from countries outside of Iraq. The country has been described as a giant "roach motel" for Islamic Jihadists.

How many Muslims want to fight the Great Satan, and die for Allah? Probably a finite number.

Is Iraq like Vietnam? No. There are no trees. No jungle.

Hillary Clinton is screaming for more American troops to be sent into Afghanistan to battle al Qaeda. God bless her. Is it OK if we conduct a two-front war, and fight al Qaeda in Iraq as well? 

Why have there been no attacks in America since 9/11? You tell me.

Thank you for your time.
Kindest Regards,
Ken from South Texas

by KenTX on 01/25/2007 07:00:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I guess its clear where you get your misinformation. I am glad GW makes you feel safe, since I don't like to see people suffer. I am willing to entertain a range of rational options in this debate, so you and I clearly don't have anything to discuss. BTW, I am not a liberal. Never have been, never will be. I am an independent, and thank god there between indies like me and liberals, we outnumber wingnuts like you 3 to 1 on the war issue. Read 'em and weep.

by Heretic on 01/23/2007 02:04:29 PM EST


I'm wondering what the Democrats will pull during the State of the Union. I bet they pull out the big dogs and have Sheehan storm the house.

by acroso on 01/23/2007 06:59:49 PM EST


Acroso,
Vanna called, you don't even have to buy a vowel she'll give you one for free, just so you can get a fucking clue.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 01/24/2007 11:36:06 AM EST

[ Parent ]
How do you know what Hillary supports? She doesn't have any items identifying a platform on her website. This allows her to be flexible in the development of her persona, but what we need is a leader not a contortionist.

I wrote about this yesterday, but compare her website with that of Dennis Kucinich, who has actually thought about the issues, identified what was important, and set forward a stance.

Hillary stays vague so that she can't be held responsible for anything. I think we have had enough of a person who says the right things but does things differently out of the spotlight.

We need a principled leader, not the next American idol.

by cjkinsey on 01/24/2007 12:04:21 PM EST


I don't know for sure what she thinks, but the issues I outlined are likely, IMO. She definitely does not want to surge the troops. She is definitely pro-choice. She is definitely not a rightwing fundamentalist. I like Kucinich, but he represents about 10% of the population and can't possibly win. Neither could Feingold. Is Obama more forthright about what he stands for? Not an iota. Is Edwards? Yes, definitely and if he has a chance, I will throw my vote to him, but not if it might just throw the primary to Obama, whom I do not believe can win the general election and has no gravitas in any quarter.

by Heretic on 01/24/2007 02:50:22 PM EST


If Hillary is going to lead a charge of dykes, then it is certainly not going to be the soft, ushy-gushy kind. In any event, I'd lay odds that she picks a military guy to be her running mate, like Clark or Webb. That'll balance the hormones, as if this argument really dignifies a response.

by Heretic on 01/24/2007 02:55:04 PM EST


I just reread what I wrote and I think, based upon her voting record and public statements, it is pretty clear where she stands on all 10 issues I enumerated. Perhaps it would be clearer to some if she posted her platform on her website, but a voting record is better a platform anyway. A vote is action. A platform is just words. In addition, she just announced, while Kucinich has been running for a while. Also, Kucinich can take any position he wants without due consdieration as no one is going to vote for him anyway and he knows it.

People are always knocking candidates for their lack of leadership and vision and the slavish following of the polls. Personally, I want to live in a democracy where the politicans actually do what the public wants and does not substitute their own supposed vision for our will. I don't want my president to lead. I want him or her to follow "we the people."

by Heretic on 01/24/2007 04:39:05 PM EST


Even though the MSM will try to marginalize him, don't count Edwards out.  He has called for taking action now and not waiting until the election.  I like that.  A progressive fights for change every chance they get in big and small battles.  A progressive challenges the status quo.  A progressive pushes for reform where ever they can be it in local, state or national politics.  To be a progressive is to be a doer.  Join John Edwards One Corps.  You'll feel like a winner when you do.  Bill Moyers says that we must not substitute the hope of results for the joy of the sheer doing.  Be don't have a lot of time to hope, we have to act.

by LadyDi on 01/25/2007 05:51:13 PM EST


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