Religion and the Founding Fathers

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This is extremely long and the first time i have ever blogged so I understand if you don't read it all.

I am sure many of you already know this but as a student and teacher of history I feel the need to explain the religious beliefs of the founding fathers (at least as well as we can decipher them based on the evidence.)

Often when arguments begin over religion and its place in our country or our culture's morality we hear statements like "This is a Christian nation!" or "Our forefathers founded this country on Christian principals."  These unsupported assertions apparently are supposed to make it ok to give large amounts of tax dollars to churches with little or no oversight or to legislate who can marry/sleep with/employ or pick up the social security checks of who.  Usually the non-religious crowd simply dismisses the "This is the way they did it 220 years ago so that is what we are gonna do now" for the obviously idiotic argument it is but there is an even better answer to this tactic.  You see what the Christian Right fails to realize is this country was NOT founded by Christians on Christian ideals.  If these people would spend a little less time studying the bible and Hilary Clinton's 1980s tax returns and a little more time studying the rich and fascinating history of this country they claim to love so much they might be shocked and horrified at what they would find.

They would learn this country was founded (for the most part) by men who would not have called themselves Christian, but Deists. To make a long Wikipedia entry short, Deists believe in a God but he is distant and impersonal.  He is NOT a Christian God.  Deists do not belief in things like miracles or revelations. In fact, Deists reject all religions based on books or writing claiming to be God's word (like the Qu'Ran or the Bible).  Deists believe God can only be understood and appreciated through logic and reason.  In retrospect this makes a lot of sense in the historical context of the time. 

The American Revolution (and the entire Age of Revolutions) was a product of the Enlightenment.  By definition the Enlightenment was the turning away from religion, superstition and tradition as a means of understanding the world and turning towards science and logic.  Much like the Republicans these last six years, the church had possessed essentially unchecked power and had abused it in ways that would make a Haliburton CEO blush.  Like American voters in the 2006 midterm elections, many Euros decided they need a change at the top (but here we mean the way high top) and changed religions.  This Reformation split European Christianity (yes, there are other kinds, African, Russian (Orthodox) and even Chinese!) initially into two pieces (Catholic and Protestant) but very quickly like an untended crack in a windshield it shattered the whole thing into too many sects to recall here. 

The realization that the Catholic church was not all that Christian in any meaningful philosophic ways (papal interests extended beyond God, Jesus and Mary to include taking millions of dollars in taxes from serfs whose level of material wealth was about the equivalent of an American homeless person to fathering children by numerous women to (allegedly) molesting boys to (allegedly) having sex with their own children to murder.  In fact, if even 10% of the stories of the popes are true they would make Bill Clinton look like an altar boy, which would be bad news for Bill if he ever found himself alone with a pope!)  But the straw that broke the camel that was Martin Luther’s back was something called indulgences which sounds like something you might get out of the freezer and is made by Haagen-Dazs but is actually a code word that meant “give me a pile of gold and I’ll tell God to let your mommy out of hell.” 

I digress but the point is about this time (the 16<sup>th</sup> century) some of the brighter lights in Europe began to suspect that maybe having an old man take a break from inventing new forms of depravity to stumble out onto the balcony of his massive office with a gold roof to tell everyone what to believe was actually not the best way to find the truth.  This is the roots of the Enlightenment and no matter what your high school textbook said, the Enlightenment was directly opposed to organized religion (at least as it existed then). 

Now, to get to America, finally.  The men who made this country were (almost) all Enlightenment thinkers and mostly rejected Christian doctrine.  The men who founded our country were lot closer philosophically to the tenets of Universalism  than to, say, Tom Delay.  In fact, John Adams was a professed Universal.  This explains Jefferson possession of a Qur'an.  The Deists did not revile the teaching and ideas of other religions, they considered the lessons and morality of other faiths to be valuable in discovering God’s will they just rejected the infallibility of the details.  Particularly the hard to believe stuff (virgin births, people surviving trips through whale intestines, talking burning bushes, etc.)  To a Deists all religions would be valued for their ideas but rejected for their claims of unverifiable Holy truths.  Now for the specifics:

Thomas Jefferson-

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites" – Notes on the State of Virginia

Hmmm, kinda odd that a man many people belief to be a devout Christian calls the religion a superstition, huh?

Probably my favorite piece of evidence is the mudslinging from the Election of 1800.  Why did Adams supporters tell you not to vote for TJ?

Jefferson did not believe in Christianity!  Federalist pamphlets of the time "accused Jefferson of the heinous crimes of not believing in divine revelation and of a design to destroy religion and `introduce immorality'”  In 1800 a vote for Jefferson was a vote for the infidel.

Jefferson’s response to these attacks can be found on the walls of his monument (or Pagan idol) in D.C. "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."  He ain’t talking about King George, this is from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in response to the attacks of the clergy in the election.  He is talking about organized religion.

Jefferson’s refusal to issue Thanksgiving proclamations and his letter explaining this has twice been cited by the Supreme Court in Separation of Church and State decisions.

And of course, the Far Rights least favorite sentence in all of America history, from the Treaty with Tripoli (yeah, we fought a war against Tripoli)-

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion…”

Wow, that is so perfect a rebuttal to the “The United States of America was founded on the Christian religion” it has to be made up, right?  Except its from an official, ratified treaty and is perfectly preserved in the Congressional and Presidential archives, not to mention the Library of Congress.  And probably in Libya somewhere too.  This gives it a tad bit more credibility, as we shall see, than the “counterevidence.

Incidentally, this quote gets a lot worse for your fBush supporters.  TJ continues-

“…as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of {Muslims}; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any {Islamic} nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Thomas Jefferson, making Republicans look like fools for more than two centuries with no sign of slowing down.

Finally (although first chronologically), the “proof” of TJ’s Christianity.  The word God in the declaration.  But far more important are the absence of the words “Jesus”, “Christ”, or “Christianity”.   Deists believe in God, just not Christianity.  The phrase is actually “nature’s God”.  Does that sound like Christianity to you?  Peruse through any Catholic or organized Christian church document you can find and see if the Christian God is called “nature’s God.”  No, in thier worldview nature is God's, not the other way around

The omissions in the Declaration are the proof.  Think for a second.  Who gave man his “certain, inalienable rights”?  Our creator did.  Not Jesus or the Christian God.  Read some historical documents from the time, if someone believes in Jesus they are not shy about putting his name in their abut 20 or 30 times. 

Actually, a Christian member of the Constitutional Congress proposed shoving the standard two or three dozen references to Christ into the Constitution and was loudly voted down.   The Constitution contains one reference to religion, that specifically denouncing the state support of a religion.

George Washington-

Almost everyone thinks the original G-Dub was as pious as our current, far inferior version.  The reason they think this is the widely read and influential Life of Washington by Mason Weems.  This is also where the Cherry Tree story comes from and every other Washington tall tale you have ever heard.  In the process of deifying GW, Weems didn’t bother to do any actual research, simply collecting stories he had heard and making up the rest.  Weems Washington is a devout, god-fearing ideal Christian but this probably has a lot more to do with Weems  (did I mention he was a minister) than Washington.

Christians point out that GW was a Vestryman for the local church but they fail to realize the Vestrymen were also the local judges and this was a political position.  He did attend church as a Vestryman but never took communion according to both the church’s ministers.  In fact, one of ministers (a Rev. Abercrombie) said, apparently anticipating the centuries long confusion and wanting to do his part to clear things up, Washington is a Deist.”  Yeah I can see how that is easily misinterpreted to mean  “George Washington was the greatest and most devout Christian of all time and therefore Massachusetts must stop gay people from getting’ hitched.”

In what would certainly be strange behavior for a devout Christian, GW failed to mention Jesus a single time in the thousands of surviving letters we have from the man (unlike the latest G-Dub whom drops Jesus name like a rock band uses the name of whatever city they are playing in that night.)  If he was a Christian he was an extraordinarily bad one.

Then there is this.  In his first Inaugural GW goes to great lengths to avoid mentioning anything that might be confused with actual Christianity using instead  “"Great Author," "Almighty Being," "invisible hand," and "benign parent of the human race," but apparently could not bring himself to speak the word "God" ("The United States in 1787," 1787 The Grand Convention, New York W, W, Norton & Co., 1987, p. 36).”

Madison- The Father of the Constitution had this to say:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Benjamin Franklin- In between inventing everything, being funny, drinking constantly and seducing old fat women, Franklin got a chance to look into the matter and explained,:

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."

Yes, I see how the Christian Conservatives have been confused by the ambiguity here.

This is pretty good stuff too.

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

Lastly his Christian friend Dr. Priestley lamented, “"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers"

Thomas Paine- He is a lost cause even to the Evangelicals.  His The Age of Reason was a sort of handbook for revolutionary Deists.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

Now they are just piling on.

John Adams-

I am kind of tired of writing but suffice to say he wrote, "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" which would kinda bother me if I was a Pope or Reverend or something.

Near as I can tell Hamilton was a Christian which makes sense since he wanted a King, was obsessed with wealth wealthy and powerful people, openly professed disdain for the working class and outright despised the poor and was considered to be an insufferable, snobby $*%&# by everyone who knew him.  He was the first American conservative.

Hamilton’s desire for a King would lead one to believe he was a Christian, actually.  You see the primary support for the Feudal system and Monarchy was Christianity.  At the end of the day the King was the King because God said so.  (Its called Divine Right of Kings).  When people began applying reason and not religion to political theory it undermined this system and changed it.  Think about Christian terminology.  Its feudalism.  You have a “Lord” you owe allegiance to.  In fact, you better pledge you loyalty and accept your servitude not only to him, but to his son too.  In return he will protect you and, eventually, reward you.  This is Feudalism.  The King was just a step or two down the hierarchy from God and Jesus.  Once the religious justification was removed, the whole system collapsed.  Therefore the Founding Fathers didn’t create our Democratic system and, oh by the way, happened to be Deists, they were able to conceive of this new system only because they were Deists.  Christianity had built political submission right into its very structure.  The throwing off of the church was a necessary step to the throwing off of the government.

The “evidence” for these men’s Christianity has one or more of three major flaws.  It is written or said by someone else.  It is recorded by people who did not or barely know them (Washington’s grandson, for example), often by people living two generations later (during the Second Great Awakening when everyone really was Christian and retroactively decided everyone they liked had always been!).  Or it is simply hearsay.  For example, every single one of the men listed above was reported to accept Jesus on their deathbed.  These reports all come years later from someone’s best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend or the like.  Their, now go find yourself a right wing Christian Coalition conservative and have fun.

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Nice work.  Now that we know who you are, BURN THE WITCH!!!

by nfc on 01/04/2007 04:43:39 PM EST


I have decided to tolerate your witch burning values and accept them as a valid worldview.

by ProfRich on 01/04/2007 05:04:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Come on let's hear about the Freemason's and their silly traditions! George Washington was a cannibal! Benjamin Franklin liked experimenting with electricity because it got his French girlfriend's nipples hard!

Seriously though, even though Franklin was a Deist I would call him a Pythagorean in terms of his daily devotion to the Golden Verses, and his practice of self-examination was remarkably like the A.A. 10th step. He wasn't really a Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death Type though, so much as he usually found interesting, alternative ways around obstacles. He created the library system, which really, more than the Carnage's and Mellon's and modern day tycoons like Gates' and Buffet's charitable donations and institutions and foundations has created a world in which the common people have a refuge from ignorance, and ignorance is the friend of tyranny, be it by Churches, Governments, the MSM, or other estates.

And from what I heard, he preferred young buxom milfs to old granny fatties, but perhaps I'm mistaken?

Last but not least, if you want to understand the Republican party, read the Republic by Plato. If you want to understand the current wave of conservative judges and the future of the Supreme Court, read about the Federalist Society. And if you want to understand about the Federalist Society, read the Federalist Papers.

Hey better watch out talking about Good Liberals with the trollz roaming the grounds, you know what they say, the only good liberal is a....

by tiggerporn on 01/04/2007 06:09:51 PM EST


I thought I remembered Franklin saying something about all women are great for sex even the fat ones and old ones are something like that.  I am sure he preferred the young hot ones like everyone else.

And I am not really that liberal, just playing around.  I'm not scared of these trolls. 

by ProfRich on 01/04/2007 10:01:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
“I am sure many of you already know this but as a student and teacher of history, blah, blah, blah” 

I don’t care about much about religious issues, since I’m not a religious guy, but when a history teacher starts drawing false conclusions about history, then I start to take notice. Like this statement, for example.

“Incidentally, this quote gets a lot worse for your Bush supporters.”

At the turn of the 19th century, Islamic fundamentalists were attacking a young SECULAR democratic republic. Thomas Jefferson responded by making war until such time as the jihadists were ready for peace. If there is any history lesson here, it’s that Islamic fundamentalism has been a problem throughout the centuries, and it must be defeated or destroyed. The only way to negotiate with these guys is from the carrier deck of the USS Missouri, with Americans sitting and al Qaeda standing. The only diplomatic envoys we should be sending are heavily laden B-52s.

"America's two main diplomats at the time were John Adams in London and Jefferson in Paris. Together they called upon Ambassador Abdrahaman, the envoy of Tripoli in London, in March 1786. This dignitary mentioned a tariff of three payments--for the ransom of slaves and hostages, for cheap terms of temporary peace and for more costly terms of "perpetual peace." He did not forget to add his own commission as a percentage. Adams and Jefferson asked to know by what right he was exacting these levies. The U.S. had never menaced or quarreled with any of the Muslim powers. As Jefferson later reported to the State Department and Congress, "The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners."

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Listen to Thomas Jefferson explaining his frustration in dealing with Islamic Jihadists:

Muslim privateers felt "it was their duty to make war upon them [non-Muslims] wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could as prisoners, and that every Mussleman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

So Jefferson built a powerful naval battle group, and he patiently waited years to implement a plan to destroy the Barbary Pirates Jihadists. He even waited until Congress was in recess, so he wouldn’t have to ask permission. We might even call Thomas Jefferson "America’s First Neocon"!

I love history. The truth always rises to the surface, in spite of desperate efforts from liberals to google bomb the facts.

Title: Victory In Tripoli: How America’s War With The Barbary Pirates Established The U.S. Navy And Shaped A Nation Author: By Joshua E. London Publisher: John Wiley & Sons Reviewed by Erik Schechter

A fledgling republic without a navy, the United States seemed ripe for the picking. In 1783, Muslim pirates – the sea-faring terrorists of their day – began attacking American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean, and the following year, the Moroccans captured a brig called Betsey and enslaved its crew. Soon afterwards, the ruler of Algiers declared war on the U.S., a declaration backed up by marauding corsairs.

The situation worsened with each coming year, but for the life of them, the Americans could not figure out what they did to make themselves so hated. In May 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, then both diplomats in Europe, met with Tripoli’s ambassador to London. Why did the North Africans attack ships of a country that had done nothing to provoke such hostility, the two asked him. The response was unnerving. As Adams and Jefferson later reported to the Continental Congress, the ambassador said the raids were a jihad against infidels. Muslim privateers felt "it was their duty to make war upon them [non-Muslims] wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could as prisoners, and that every Mussleman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

The Americans now had two choices: pay tribute or fight the pirates.

In Victory in Tripoli, Joshua London gives a fascinating, fast-paced account of how the United States took on the pirate states of North Africa and, in the process, learned about appeasement, naval power and diplomacy through the barrel of a gun. If the book has one drawback, it is this: The author sometimes gets too breezy with the details and the reader is left guessing. The Barbary States comprise what is now modern-day North Africa. The name comes from the word barbari ("barbarian"), what the Arabs called the native Imazighen population. The rough-and-tumble Imazighen (or Berbers) began to convert to Islam.

by KenTX on 01/05/2007 12:30:38 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I take it from your response you only take exception to my interpretation of the second half of the Jefferson/Tripoli quote and agree that the founding fathers were non-christian.  That is great since that was one small barb that really had nothing to do with my point. 

All I can say about your (actually some other guys) analysis of the Barbary Coast War is your source is something called The Jewish Press.  Interesting analysis (as well as word substitution- I can't help but wonder what goes in place of Non-Muslim in that quote?)

I could cite a lot of sources showing this to be Jewish and anti-muslim propaganda but its late here in Texas so I will go with this one.

"The goals of the Barbary Powers were solely mercenary.  They sought to extort tribute...When Tripoli declared war on the United States in 1801 it was because the United States refused to pay the bashaw tribute.

That is from the U.S. Navy specifcally trying to clear up the  ex post facto claims that we fought a jihad once before!  You can call the Navy liars all you want but I am dying to know what thier motives are? Just their standard pinko liberal slant on the world? A desire to embaress Bush?  Anti-semitism? Pro-muslinism? (made that word up.)

Now the end of that paragraph should put a stop to this silliness.

"The Tripolitan War was not a Holy War."

Clear enough? 

Easily the best part of your post was this: 

I love history.  The truth always rises to the surface, in spite of desperate efforts from liberals to google bomb the facts

See I really  do love history.  So much so that I dedicated my professional life to it.  You seem to love it as a petty way to win arguments.  Now let me ask you, before you typed it into a search engine how much did you really know about the War with Tripoli?  or Joshua London? or his book? or the JewishPress.com?  I am willing to bet you knew a little about the war and nothing about the rest until you tried to google bomb your way to a W here on TYT board? 
I'll let the other bloggers decide.  Who is google bombing here?  Who do you trust more for a fair and balanced explanation of the war with Tripoli, Josh London and the Jewish Press.com or the Navy? Here is the Wiki entry in case you think, like me, that is a relative neutral source.

by ProfRich on 01/05/2007 01:48:58 AM EST

[ Parent ]
“All I can say about your (actually some other guys) analysis of the Barbary Coast War is your source is something called The Jewish Press.”

OK. Here are two more sources.

National Review

Time Magazine

“That is from the U.S. Navy specifically trying to clear up the  ex post facto claims that we fought a jihad once before!  You can call the Navy liars all you want but I am dying to know what their motives are?”
Your source is merely some historian named Michael J. Crawford. He has an opinion on the conflict, that’s all.

I prefer the opinion of contemporaries, especially Thomas Jefferson, since as you claim: Thomas Jefferson, making Republicans look like fools for more than two centuries with no sign of slowing down.”

So what did Thomas Jefferson say about the Islamic Jihadists of the day?

"America's two main diplomats at the time were John Adams in London and Jefferson in Paris. Together they called upon Ambassador Abdrahaman, the envoy of Tripoli in London, in March 1786. This dignitary mentioned a tariff of three payments--for the ransom of slaves and hostages, for cheap terms of temporary peace and for more costly terms of "perpetual peace." He did not forget to add his own commission as a percentage. Adams and Jefferson asked to know by what right he was exacting these levies. The U.S. had never menaced or quarreled with any of the Muslim powers. As Jefferson later reported to the State Department and Congress, "The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners."

“These future United States presidents questioned the ambassador as to why his government was so hostile to the new American republic even though America had done nothing to provoke any such animosity. Ambassador Adja answered them, as they reported to the Continental Congress, “that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every “Musselman” (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.””

You can call Thomas Jefferson and John Adams liars all you want but I am dying to know what their motives are?

Tell you what. You work on those facts and quotes, and then get back to me with proof that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were lying.

by KenTX on 01/05/2007 03:34:14 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Your first source is just the same guy you posted yesterday in a different publication.  Solid research.  The second is fine but you are simply taking the rhetoric out of the explanation of this war.  If you read that article it is very clear that this was a war over piracy, not religion.  Sure, just like in every war both sides resort to nationalist feelings and highlight the differences in the culture but the Barbary Coast War had no relationship at all to a terrorist movement.Terrorism is the use of violence to change a nation's policies.  How the hell does raiding any ship that comes into your waters with privateers for pure profit fit into that description? 

I know you found some neat quotes with keyowrds that your google search hit but there is just no connection to North Africa in 1801 and the Middle East in 2006.

Unless you come up with something a lot more legitimate, I am done here. 

by ProfRich on 01/05/2007 09:33:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I hope you mean you're done with KenTX and his attempt to debate ya on the Babray War, and not that you're done with this thread or the whole Forum! Cause it'd be a shame if we lost ya!
 
a thousand salaams 

by StevenBollinger on 01/05/2007 09:43:50 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"I know you found some neat quotes with keywords that your google search hit"

This information was originally posted in a thread from September.

At this point, you should feel like a complete dumbass, but I'm sure you won't admit it.

by KenTX on 01/05/2007 09:46:43 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I love the phrase google bombing.  KenTx is  really good at that. He rarely has a salient point. and rarely truely understands what he is pasting. He/she/it&nbs p;isnt about debate  That would mean actually taking into account the postion of the other person. Kenny boy is all about disruption. If worse comes to worse. He will resort to calling you fat or wish that you die of aids. He's is the typical gnat.


Thanks for the post. Very informative . I wish I had seen it long ago.

One of my pet peeves is the fundies trying to turn this country into a theocracy and claiming that is the founding fathers idea.

As far as I can tell. The founding fathers where not shy about their opinions and if they wanted to say that this country is founded on religion or the source of the constitution is the bible . Then they would have said so. It seems like they went out of their way to make sure that there are no religious tests.

by Tiny Demon on 01/05/2007 06:00:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
First of all, in the spirit of cards on the table, I am an atheist -- oh no he didn't!! oh yes he did say "atheist" not "agnostic"! -- and I would like to believe that the Founding Fathers were every bit as un-Christian as you imply. But I would rather learn what is true than believe what is comforting. Can it be that Jefferson and und Madison represented the radical fringe among the Founding Fathers when it came to religion, and that many of them were, in fact, Christians who would be only too depressingly familiar to us today?
 
I am not sure exactly what the quote from John Adams means, beginning: "I almost shudder at the thought..." More context would be helpful here. You seem to think that this is an un-Christian utterance. Could it not be that that which made John shudder was the thought of the traditional story of the suffering and death of His Precious Lord? and that he was comparing the persecutors of Jesus with the royal and Papal tyrants of his own day? You yourself mention how Adams campaigned against Jefferson by calling him un-Christian
 
-- which leads to another consideration: how representative, in their hostility to Christianity, were Jefferson et al of the American public? Were they always completely open about their Deist views when courting the votes of simple folk? Could it be that the Great Awakening consisted mainly in the rulers of America coming more exactly to represent the masses whom they ruled? 

by StevenBollinger on 01/05/2007 10:13:16 AM EST


a thousand salaams

by StevenBollinger on 01/05/2007 10:15:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]

First, many of the founding fathers were Christian.  Absolutely.  But to be honest, I am not sure who is left among them that really rises to the level of impact of the ones discussed.  I do not say that to be dismissive it just seems to me that these are the guys who had the bulk of the impact.  I believe Hamilton and Governour Morris were devout and many other "lesser" Founders but if Paine, TJ and Madison, Franklin and GW were, and we can agree on that, how much did the rest really matter? 

And I feel bad saying that, but the philosophical and structual underpinnings were largely shaped by those 5 plus Hamiltion (Christian), George Mason (I have no idea but a s close friend of TJ and Madison and a Virginian I would guess Deist) and Adams (who, like you I waiver on) I think you cannot possibly argue this country was founded by Christian or on Christian ideals.  You have to at least acknowledge it was founded by a diverse group which of course invalidates the "This is what the founding fathers wanted!" argument when a Right Wing Christian based bill or amendment comes up.  This was the point I was trying to make.

As for Adams, I read one thing and go one way and read the next and come back.  I would not be at all surprised to find definitive prove he was a Christian.  The other five I am convinced of.

Did people know they were Deists?  I don't know.  TJ never tried to hide it, Paine advertised it! Franklin was widely considered a guy who marched to the beat of his own drum so it would surprise me if he tried to hide it, Madison seems to have been pretty open about it although Madison was not much of a celebrity until TJ picked him to be the 4th president so I am not sure anyone would have cared.

I suspect Washington was coy about it, like Kevin Spacey and Michael Stipe are with thier sexuality.  I think he just preferred to say nothing at all and let you fill that blank in how you wanted.  But you must also understand that Christianity was about as weak a social and political force as it ever would be in this time (taking, say 400AD to the end of World War II as our timeframe). 

by ProfRich on 01/05/2007 11:00:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]
On the other hand, I must be way behind the time in my sexual catagorisation of celebrities: I thought that Stipe had been all the way out of the bisexual closet for a good decade and a half, and it had never once occurred to me to wonder whether Spacey's orientation was anything but mainstream-hetero.  (In case anyone's wondering about me: I don't really care  much about celebrities' private orientations and how they get off, as long as no-one gets hurt.)
 
You're right: when it comes to interesting writing, including the Constitution, Jefferson and Madison leave the rest in the dust, whatever their religion. And of course it's clear that the right wing Christians can't claim to be following Jefferson and Washington without lying or being awfully ignorant.
 
I can't really be objective about Paine, I have some major problems with him, but they have no direct bearing on our discussion. Paine said some very stupid and enormously influential things about the ancient languages being no longer necessary, he contributed far more than his share to the death of, among other things, the Latin language, while I am a very enthusiatic student of Latin and of the history of the part of the world that spoke and wrote Latin, from ancient Rome to Paine's day -- but like I said, that's neither here nor there -- even if Paine did look like Mr. Bean...
 
Your assertion that Christianity was weaker around the time of the American Revolution than at any other time between AD 400 and WWII is interesting -- but is it really true? I know, we're talking about the time of Voltaire and Gibbon, but it was also the time of Dr. Johnson, who thought that Voltaire was an arch-criminal. Berkeley was a bishop, Swift was a cathedral Dean. I just think that it's very hard to assess the relative strength of Christianity at various times, because it's such a vast and complex question. I would like to think that it is dying all around us as we speak, but I have to ask myself to what extent I see what I wish to see, to what extent I postulate a world of good sense and real progress to distract myself from all the stupidity and chaos all around me.
 
a thousand salaams 

by StevenBollinger on 01/05/2007 11:40:30 AM EST

[ Parent ]

We could argue about the lowest point of Christian influence but cleaerly the Enlightenment is among the lowest.  I would point out that at this time essentially all educational opportunities was controlled by the church.  This meant that there were a lot of smart and interesting people who were doing big things who had church educations and church titles but were not actually all that Christian (Descartes comes to mind). 

Certainly there were still prominent and powerful Christian voices (as there were in the 1960s and 1970s) there just seemed to be a whole lot more non-Christian voices making their mark during the Enlightenment.

by ProfRich on 01/05/2007 01:17:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hmm, OK, please don't hammer me for not checking my dates, I just feel I'm relying on google and wiki way too much lately, but in the 12th and 13th century, didn't you have the Moors in Spain, the Inquisition, and Popes with numerous children? Hmm, but I guess of course it is what historical framework or lens you're looking at it from, because from a military or political stand point, the Moors in Spain might be a low point, where as from a moral or ethical standard (always get those two confused) it might be the Inquisition or the Popes with children. Vice versa though I guess you could say they were at their zenith power during the Inquisition.

This is a really interesting thread though, please don't give up on it because you are too much in agreement. Why is it that it is always the hate spewing that leads to the endless threads and the thoughtful ones that end too soon? Case in point Prof's discussion of the housing market with Alpha, one of the best things I've read all year. Seriously though, both that discussion and this are worthy of more debate.

by tiggerporn on 01/05/2007 04:39:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
 -- to me, that is. In the late 19th century Nietzsche pointed out that morality is always subjective, never absolute, because there is no absolute Being running the universe according to one unified system, but rather a great variety of us small creatures, each one grappling with his or her own portion of the earth under our own unique circumstances and with our own limited resources. The world is still just beginning to understand this (and also just beginning to sort out what Nietzsche actually wrote from that which his antisemitic Wagnerian sister Elisabeth Foerster-Nietzsche unhelpfully added to his notes and published under his name after his breakdown and death. Here's a tip: although Nietzsche was planning a large work entitled "Der Wille zur Macht" ["The Will to Power"], he only completed the first part, which we know as the book "The Antichrist". The book in the stores entitled "The Will to Power" has been all crunked up by Nietzsche's sister, and cannot be regarded as a reliable guide to his thought).
 
So when I say that some of the bad Popes were good, I mean that they were good from my point of view, and I realize that the world is complex enough to render my framework of good and bad -- it's hard to take the term "evil" seriously after having read Nietzsche -- quite meaningless to some other people regarding the same "bad" Popes.
 
I'm thinking here specifically of Alexander VI, Leo X and Clement VII, who were among the leading patrons of the arts of the Renaissance. I'm a big arts booster, I feel that the arts make life, if not always completely right, at least a lot more bearable. Because of these three bad Popes we have St. Peter's in Rome, a spectacularly beautiful building, not to mention the Sistine Chapel paintings and many other masterpieces by Michaelandelo, Bramanti, Leonardo, Raphael et al, not only in Rome but also in many other beautiful cities. Leo was famous for spending massive amponts of money, not only on the arts, but also on charity for the poor. What do I care if he also occasionally enjoyed a good blowjob, or if he failed to whip his own back until it bled? (Anybody seeing a connection to current American politics here? Yeah? Good.)
 
And this was all paid for by indulgences for northern Europeans. Martin Luther came to Rome and was horrified by the grandeur of the place. (Beware of grim moralists who are horrified by beauty!) But instead of bending his energies toward enlightening the people who threw their money away on things like indulgencies, he attacked the papacy. As Nietzsche wrote, when Luther came to Rome he saw that Christ no longer sat upon the throne of Christendom, but rather, life, human life. To Luther this was a huge sin and disgrace. From  Nietzsche's point of view, and from mine, it was a triumph. That was definitely a low point of the power of Christianity within the city of Rome itself. Luther and Calvin and their followers wanted to be more Christian than the Popes. Catholics responded to the huge successes of Protestantism by becoming more Christian again themselves, especially when it came to things like their choice of Popes.
 
Btw tiggerporn, was Spain really so bad off under the Moors? I'm just asking, I don't know much about the subject. I do know that at the other end of the Mediterranean, during the Crusades, the occupied peoples of the area, Armenian and Syrian Christians and Jews and others, seemed to consistently prefer the rule of the Moslems to that of either the Catholic, Western Crusaders, or of the Orthodox Greeks centered in Constantinople. (I highly recommend Steven Runciman's three-volume History of the Crusades, ISBN's 052134770X, 0521347716 and  0521347723.)
 
a thousand salaams 

by StevenBollinger on 01/05/2007 07:31:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]

To learn interesting new things and hear thoughtful points of view, thanks!

I don't know that I know a lot more about this than you guys do but just to elaborate on a few of my points.

When I talked about "bad popes" I meant popes that fell short of the values Jesus tried to spread. I am lucky enough to have twice visited the Sistine Chapel and certainly am impressed by the artistic accomplishment it is but when I go to the Vatican I can never escape the feeling that all that beauty and grandeur was paid for with gold either stolen, coerced (often violently) or manipulated out of the hands of people (often who desperately needed it ) in the name of a man who was clearly opposed to the amassing of material wealth.

I like the Sistine Chapel and all but I would like it even more if the pope had got the money in some conscienable way (develop a NEA and be up front about it) as opposed to waging wars and saying to people who couldn't feed themselves "Gimme everything you got or you and everyone you love will burn in purgatory forever!" which is a very simplified version of how it happened. That is what I mean by a "bad" pope.

Think about it this way, if you found out that George and Dick had just flat out stolen billions from us (in Haliburton contracts or something) but then learned they had collected the world's greatest art collection and built the world's most beautiful Cabela's or hunting lease or something would you then say, "Hey, they weren't so bad after all!"

I wouldn't 

by ProfRich on 01/05/2007 10:05:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I really think the comparison is unfair to the bad Popes. If W and Dick have infused huge amounts of those billions into the arts, they've hidden it extremely well (= I don't think they have.)
 
And, to repeat what I said above, Leo X also gave lavishly to the poor: to orphans, widows, wounded veterans, anyone and everyone in need. Now THAT definitely does not sound like George and Dick. (I don't know as much about the other bad Renaissance Popes, as far as how charity-minded they were.)

by StevenBollinger on 01/05/2007 11:57:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I don't have any need to crucify (terrible word choice) the Renaissance Pope's. The point was they clearly turned off many Catholics of the time whether they were good popes are bad.

I do, however, enjoy thinking of all those Popes passed having to sit in heaven and watch Notre Dame get the holy shit kicked out of them every time they play anyone with some talent.   

Clearly Goerge and Dick are not doing a damn thing for the arts (particularly not the art of rhetoric).

 

by ProfRich on 01/06/2007 12:34:08 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I totally understand and accept what you guys are saying about the 13-15th centuries being a tough time for Christianity but I meant something a bit different. 

From the Black Death to the Reformation (and Counterreformation) Christianity certainly went through some rough times but I don't know that its grip on the minds of the common person and his thought processes ever really weakened dramatically.  

When you talk about the troubles of the Catholic Church and Martin Luther and Protestantism this actually kind of proves my point.  There was probably never a better time to throw off your believe in Christianity that in the 16th century but is that what we saw happen? No.

When Luther and millions of fellow Protestants suddenly looked at the Catholic Church and saw the Pope had no clothes did they leave the comforting embrace of a Christian belief system for the cold realities of agnosticism (or Deism)? No they simply redefined Christianity and kept right on going with the hold the religion had on them.  They just rewrote the details.

Sure this was a low point for the Catholic Church, but not for Christianity.  Actually, it was a time when Christianity clearly had a hold of the poeple in a way that even when presented with every opportunity, they couldn't walk away.  In the Enlightenment it seemed like every guy who read a book chunked Christianity out the window (not really, there were many fine Christian scholars of the day but you get my point).

As for Spain and the Moors.  The Moors took control of Spain in the 8th century.  The Reconquesta and fall of Granada which pushed the last Moorish lord out of Spain was in 1492 (easy date to remember, huh?).  While this certainly hurt Christian influence in Spain, it didn't seem to slow down anyone else in Europe.

During this time we see Charlemagne united Western Europe under a Christian banner, the rise and rise of papal power, the 1066 declaration of Pope Urban II that launched the crusade (clearly a high water mark in Christianity's grip on the mind of Europe), the Portugese spread Christianity to Sub-Saharan Africa and more.  I think Europe was pretty devout in this time despite the loss of Spain.

Finally, I would say that the Moors, like most Muslim Empires of the period, were far more tolerant, cosmopolitan, advance, diverse and less restrictive than the Europeans powers of the day.  Remember, from the fall of Rome to the Renaissance Europe was a scientific, cultural and political backwater while the Muslim Empires were the flower of Civilization

by ProfRich on 01/05/2007 10:22:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Up late, can't fall asleep, had too much coffee today, nothing on but bad TV. Glad there were these posts left here, thanks.

You know I always find it ironic how we call Muslims ragheads and other such derogatory terms and see them as living in some prehistoric era. In a sense though, like the Amish, certain sects do choose this lifestyle in the Muslim world, but I think we have far too narrow a view and lump them all together. Like we are the big Satan to them. But I also wonder about history, and revisionist history and what it was really like to live 1000 years ago vs. the way we've recorded and remembered and passed it on and will continue to pass it on. Of course there were great centers for scholarly learning at this time, particularly with regards to mathematics in the Arabic and Muslim world, while we went through the so-called dark ages. But I wonder, if for instance all you had to judge our current culture in America on was Jerry Springer, abandoned farms with inbred white trash hillbillies, $5000 huge satellite TV dishes in the front yard and crystal meth and oxytocin drug lords in refurbished hummers, how would you remember us 1000 years from now?

A lot of the art, music, literature, philosophy and mathematics of Europe during the Middle Ages is discounted or dismissed without the proper appreciation of form, style and substance. But I also tend to look at this period from a Celtic, Anglophobe, non-western perspective so I am admittedly biased. While the Arabs were carrying on the work of the Greeks with Algebra, the Italian and Jewish mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci was discovering a new form of math that would eventually lead to our current fractal math, which has created the disparate fields of chaos theory, fuzzy math, game theory and the theory of smart mobs, as well as having influence in forecasting markets, mapping, and even protein folding theory, which is incredibly important with regards to discovering a cure for aids. But he was also not subject to the vagaries of papal dictates, diets, and excommunication like the later Galileo.

GALILEO! GALILEO! GALILEO FIGARO! No NO NO! You will not let him go! NO NO!


queen


Gotta love that zany Freddy Mercury. But I digress. Where was I? Ah yes...History. History is usually cyclical, so I imagine some day the Muslims or maybe secular Arabs will again one day surpass the west in science and technology. The interesting thing about technology is that it is so malleable and can be used for so many different things based upon the context of your society and its aims. Perhaps had Muslims been the leaders in these fields, and not to discount individual Muslims or Arabs or individual cultures, especially in particular fields, but rather taken as a whole, perhaps had Muslims currently been the leaders in these fields we'd have research priorities in entirely different allocations then they are. Western culture's priorities are the quarter, narrow profit margins, Moore's law, increasing bandwidth, penetration and market capitalization, and most importantly finding more efficient ways to kill people from farther and farther away. We start with the stick, then move to the knife, then the bow and arrow, then the gun, and finally we launch our projectile weapon from thousands of miles away, cleanly and efficiently with a button. One man in the Enola Gay kills 100,000 in seconds and this is the height of our civilization. Makes you wonder if it isn't time for a change, time for another culture with different priorities and a different world view to try their hand. Then again, 9/11 conspiracy theory aside....

I do think the one thing you forgot to mention was the influence of Gutenberg and the printing press, but some people say I give that too much importance as the key shaper of the history of the time. And to be fair I did say 12 and 13th century but I guess I was being a bit vague on purpose, who knows?

by tiggerporn on 01/06/2007 02:36:58 AM EST

[ Parent ]

It seems like I have expressed some variation of this sentiment, it feels like, dozens of times in the last three days but here we go again.  When I say Europe was relatively backwards to the Muslim world in Medieval times I do not mean to imply that there were no significant achievements by Europeans in the period.  SImply that if you did go back to that time period you would find the Muslim world to be more scientifically, culturally, economically etc. advanced.  More "civilized".

Sure we could name interesting Euros from the time to our hearts content but sadly we are not as familiar with the great muslim thinkers of that time.

It is interesting you bring up Fibonacci. According to the Wikipedia, Fibonacci's most significant impact comes from his introducing the use of Arabic numerals to Europe.  Kind of reinforces my point. 

And while his work may have led to some of the most advanced math of the 20th century, he did not develop any of these things you mentioned.  Centuries later mathematicians would adopt some of his work to get to super hard math I don't understand.  As far as I can tell, Finbonacci's work in and of itself was not terribly useful.

Now in the muslim world a guy was inventing Algebra, not just laying down some foundation but creating the whole system. (most words that begin in al our muslim words). 

As for Guttenberg, he would miss both the 12th and 13th centuries altogether and only see the last two years of the 14th (b. 1398.  I don't think I overlooked him, I think he just fell outside of my time frame (he was post Black Plague).  In fact, he is a Renaissance figure and a key reason why Europe overtook the Muslim world. 

 

by ProfRich on 01/06/2007 03:04:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]
My opinion. Thank God I live in the United States and can say this without fear of reprisal!

by MountainMan on 01/06/2007 10:35:33 PM EST


(I don't know you so well yet, Man: if you meant your post sarcastically, then the following is unnecessary. Otherwise -- ) 
 
Exactly: no-ever EVER got in trouble in the US for criticizing religion!
 
(SHEESH!)
 
This ISN't the freest country in the world, not any more. Probably not even in the top 10. Unless you're one of those entrepreneurs who don't care about anything but money, who are incapable of measuring success or happiness in other than monetary terms, and who believe that money is speech, then maybe we're number one. (Have you heard about these turnips? There are actual human beings in the US who walk upright and who have claimed that money is speech, and that therefore any and all use of money for political campaigning and for influencing elected official is covered by the First Amemendment.)

by StevenBollinger on 01/07/2007 07:06:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm agnostic leaning atheist but try to keep an open mind. By the way....anyone ever find those Ten Commandment tablets that God made? I would think that something god made would last forever. I know......I'm doomed.

by MountainMan on 01/07/2007 07:06:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]

This was one of the most enjoyable blogs I've read in a long time, including the comments and responses.  Just great. 

Is the modern  day agnostic (I call them fence sitters) the equivalent of the 18th century deist?

by itsthemedication on 01/07/2007 10:50:35 AM EST


I am glad to hear this.  When I went to the trouble of posting that blog it was my hope some would find it interesting and I would hear something interesting in response.  Thank you to all those who took it in that spirit.  It was my first ever blog post and has encouraged me to do more.

(By the way to Cenk, Ben, Jill, Dave, etc.  ever venture down here to the dungeon.)

I think agnostic=deist is a reasonable comparison.  I tend to associate the deists with those folks who believe all religion are a path to God, they just differ in the details.  Kind of those with a Joseph Campbell mindset. 
Which would make Star Wars a deist  story and, consequently, fundamentally American. (It is loosely based on Campbell's ideas)

by ProfRich on 01/07/2007 12:04:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
So having an open mind and challenging the norm and not believing everything you read, see and hear is a fence sitter? I'm proud to be a fence sitter!

by MountainMan on 01/07/2007 07:37:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I ventured down to here.  Wasn't there a Pope Julius who was very important in getting Michelangelo to work?

David

by yturks on 01/07/2007 07:17:23 PM EST


Julius II was a patron of Michaelangelo's, as were Alexander VI before and Leo X after him.
 
The comparison of eighteenth-century deists with present-day agnostics is very apt. I think it's important to remember that each term covers a wide variety of beliefs. I like the comparison of deism to Joseph Campbell, but that's a very narrow and specific definition of deism. Others in the eighteenth century may have been closer to atheism in their actual belief, but it was much more respectable to call oneself a deist. Just as today there is some peer pressure in certain intellectual circles to call oneself an agnostic, and there are agnostics who lump atheists together with religious believers: they, the agnostics, are right, and everyone else is wrong, dim-witted, to be mocked and so forth. 

by StevenBollinger on 01/07/2007 07:52:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
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