Tax and Spend, vs. Lie and Spend

Applying the "Lie and Spend" label to Repubican Conservatives is as fair as calling Liberals and Democrats, "Tax and Spend".

Joe Smooe or Sally Reily find it more difficult these days, to participate in political discussions and to help form reasonable paths and effective policies for our Country.  Ruling the day are shout and chaos Neo-Pundits, who lower the intellictual level of public discourse to insults, slogans, self promotion, and hateful meaningless drivel.

Most Liberals and Conservatives, if we must use those labels, are hardworking, trying to be fair, citizens. However, for years the more hateful Conservative Republicans, have branded Liberals and Democrats as "Tax and Spend" and in the last decade have tried to label them as "UnAmerican and NonChristian".

There is as much truth, especially in the last few years, that many Conservatives and Republicans can be labeled "Lie and Spend".

In reaction, and to balance the playing field, Republican Conservatives can be smeared with the "Lie and Spend" Label. If repeated enough, it can become part of the everyday vocabulary.

However, it would be best to ignore the labels, and smeers, and proceed in a progressive, but fair manner. The Tae, Easern Religions and Philosophies, let alone moderate Christian, Jewish, and Islamic beliefs, can unite us all in working for a better World.  The trip can be fabulous and exciting beyond words.

These Ways of the Heart and Spirit, would guide us to a Patriotism including all Humanity, not Ego based.  And as Dr. Wayne Dyer says, EGO stands for Edge God Out.

Mannington Phil


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More than half of the budget is entitlements. Those were all Democrat programs.

by acroso on 11/29/2007 12:14:26 AM EST

Health by the way is for government employees - of the 10%, 83% is for the military.

13 + 12 + 21 = 46%

Social Security was started by Teddy Rosevelt (R) and includes things like

Which of these would you like to get rid of?

by Randomambusher on 11/29/2007 07:53:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]

If you take away defense, and debt, you're pretty much left with entitlements- aka about half being entitlements. 

 

by acroso on 11/29/2007 12:24:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And if you take away helping people, you're left with hurting people... what's your point?

by Randomambusher on 11/29/2007 01:23:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My point was that it's the Democrats who are the tax and spenders.

by acroso on 11/29/2007 01:35:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Except - we've broken that down over and over and over again. You know it's not true.

by Randomambusher on 11/29/2007 03:30:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]

50% of the budget is Democrat spending programs and yet they want more of them. Isn't it pretty obvious that Democrats are the spenders when the entire budget especially if you don't count debt is devoted to paying for their spending programs.

 

by acroso on 11/29/2007 03:40:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
A *majority* of the country wants more of them.

by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 03:59:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Maybe maybe not. Nut there is no debating who are the REAL spenders...the DEMOCRATS!

by acroso on 11/29/2007 04:18:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll create a new post about it soon.  There's tons of polling data (from non-partisan sources) confirming that majority is more progressive on many issues than most people believe.

by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 05:57:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
So you want more tax and spend?

by acroso on 11/29/2007 06:13:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I''d be happy with the top marginal tax rate being around 50% (which is 20% less than what it was under Kennedy and 41% less than what it was under republican Eisenhower).  Keep in mind this ONLY kicks in after you earn your first 3.2 million dollars (something tells me this won't effect anyone likely to read this post).

I also think we need to tax passive income more.  No reason you should only be taxed at 15% sitting on your ass watching your flat screen waiting for your dividend check to arrive while people actually working are taxed double that amount, if not more.

With that said, I also think there is plenty of waste to be cleaned up, i.e. bridges to nowhere, no bid contracts, etc. 

And clearly we need to re-examine the effectiveness of welfare style programs to see how they can be restructured (or scrapped and replaced with something better rather than replaced with a "good luck deadbeat" attitude) along with more head-start programs and universal health care and education (up to and including college or trade schools for students who meet certain requirements).

Hell, you want to cut wasteful spending?  Get rid of mandatory minimums for drug related crimes and decriminalize drugs, at LEAST pot (and no, I don't smoke *anything* and have no interest in it for the record).

We waste an incredible amount of money with the "war on drugs" with no real benefit other than some people sleep better at night with a false sense that something is actually changing.

PS---This isn't about being some "hippie tree hugger" who wants love and peace. 

You can be very selfish and realize the numerous benefits to what I'm saying...I believe that a healthy, educated public will ultimately pay for itself and then some, with less crime and violence, less unintended pregnancies, better decision making in general and more tax revenue (the more people that pay in, the less they need to pay in to begin with over time). 

As a country we need to stop thinking in terms only of yay or nay on taxes, but rather, look at it as expenses vs investments, short, medium and most importantly, long term.  You want to cut some expenses?  Sure, why not.  Just make sure you don't cut out too many investments (especially WRT health, education and our infrastructure).

by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 06:49:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I strongly disagree. Long term capital creation depends solely on current savingswhich is exactly equal to  current investment. aka savings=investment. If you tax and penalize investment, then you stifle long-term capital creation, which is exactly what separates us from the third world. That money that the "rich" are making is not a detriment unless it is being SPENT.

We need to penalize consumption not investment. We are in a spending crisis in this country because our tax system rewards spending and penalizing investment.

That's why Bush's Capital gains and dividend tax cuts made so much sense. He was adopting Europe's strategy of encouraging investment (on Capital gains at least.) 

by acroso on 11/29/2007 07:26:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In other words, you buy into Reagan style trickle down economics, correctly referred to by Bush Sr as "voodoo economics".

Give the rich as much as possible because they'll create more wealth and some of the crumbs will fall off their plate and "trickle down" to the rest of us.  Nice in theory (ok, not really) but not in practice.

Also, you have to ask what the ultimate goal is. 

Is to make certain people as rich as possible while the majority lives in questionable conditions OR is it to allow people to become quite rich but *also* raise up everyone else (within reason, I am NOT by any means suggesting equal wages or any such nonsense)?

We were much closer to the latter scenario in the
50's- 70's and have been moving closer and closer to the trickle down model since then, with disastrous results

Would you refer to the "golden age" of the middle class mentioned above (also note that average purchasing power peaked in the 70's as has been declining ever since) as a period rife with socialism? 

No, despite the fact that anyone who tries to move the country closer to the left (right now it's WAY to the right on war, the constitution AND the economy) is immediately labeled as some kind of "(fill in the blank)ist".

The links I provide directly contradict trickle down, conservative economics.  Otherwise how can you explain them, especially considering the 6 years of a republican president and congress?  No way you can blame the democrats or democrat economic policy for the shrinking middle class and increased polarization.

by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 08:16:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Trickle down is a made up word. I'm saying tax consumption as high as you want but don't tax investment. If a rich person is investing and not spending it on anything at all but just reinvesting there is no reason to stop that. It should be ENCOURAGED. Now if he goes and buys a 20 million dollar mansion, I see nothing wrong with heavy tax on consumption.

Investment is what powers our econony. Your arguement is strictly based on equity.

Mine is based on efficiency.

The first thing you learn in econ is that you can never have efficiency and equity at the same time. They are a trade off.

But I also believe the government does not have a right to sieze your property. 

by acroso on 11/29/2007 09:45:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
To what end?  What is the best outcome in your mind?  Do you care about a strong middle class or do you think everything should be geared toward maximizing *individual* wealth over all else?

What do you think about those two links I posted (at least skim them) regarding the shrinking/anemic middle class and also the increased polarization.  Are you neutral, positive or negative on these things?

PS---Ok, so we're the richest nation on earth.  Should we simply be aspiring to get richer and richer if it only really benefits the top 1% with negative effects for most others, particularly the bottom 80%? 

I realize it's not completely a zero sum game, and that you can increase the size of the pie (total amount of wealth in the country), but only *to an extent*. 

It's not always a win-win, and while it shouldn't always have to be, it's far too much of a win-lose these days.

by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 10:19:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Same arguement. You want redistribution, equity. You want to take money away from investment and put it into government consumption via big government and social programs. That's not the path to economic growth.

There's nothing new in politics especially big government liberalism.

by acroso on 11/29/2007 10:51:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We've HAD conservative economic/trade policie s since the Reagan, and as my links point out quite clearly, we have a shrinking middle class and increasing polarization to show for it.

Simply saying "ah, same old argument" doesn't really address those issues, does it?

But I'm guessing you didn't even skim the links.

by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 10:58:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The Reagan economy did quite well compared to Carter's. That's why he won with 49 states. Of course I blame the Fed more than Carter. However, you don't get it. It's equity vs. efficiency. You can't have both.

There is no way that taking money out of investment and putting it into consumption is good economic policy. And yes, if you tip the balance toward effifiency you might get less equity.

 What is complete equity? Communism..of course we know how that worked..

by acroso on 11/29/2007 11:13:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I HATE when people generically say "the economy was good" but they leave out *for who*.

WHO was the Reagan economy good for?  The middle class?  No, the investor/upper class, which is precisely why fellow republican Bush Sr referred to his economic policies as "voodoo economics".

I understand the *theory* of what you're trying to say but why are you ignoring the practical application and results of what you're saying (and for the record, I specifically ruled out communism or anything even close to communism because I disagree with it as it also doesn't work)? 

Again, please stop ignoring the two articles I posted.  Skim them (both short), and either find some way to refute them OR explain briefly why we shouldn't care and or why it's a good thing to have a shrinking middle class and increased polarization.

You keep talking about broad, abstract theories about equity and efficiency.  Great, but you have to actually back up your theory with positive results, and the latest evidence (in addition to less recent but still relevant evidence) refutes your theory.

Just consistently repeating why you believe your theory is better on paper is not really an argument.

by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 11:32:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Think I’m kidding? Look at this.

Rich people send a large majority of their political contributions to the Democrat Party. And why not? The system is rigged in their favor. They want to support the people who are taxing the income of the middle class, instead of taxing the wealth of the rich.

We tax income rather than wealth in America. Rich people don’t earn paychecks like we do. The receive trust fund disbursements. The great grandkids of Old Joe Kennedy never paid taxes.

When Democrats fight to increase income taxes, they are punishing the middle class, not the rich.

You want to hit the rich in the wallet? Get serious about estate taxes.

Sam Walton and Bill Gates and the google kids amassed fortunes. They certainly deserved their wealth because they created hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars of wealth for other Americans. But their heirs will live like kings without paying taxes.

Note to Democrats. Start taxing wealth, not income.

by KenTX on 11/29/2007 11:54:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]

49 states!

I guess the people approvaed of Reagan! 

 

by acroso on 12/01/2007 03:15:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And or they can be duped by good spin and distraction. 

by ihavenobias on 12/03/2007 12:44:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"Now if he goes and buys a 20 million dollar mansion, I see nothing wrong with heavy tax on consumption."

right on, right on, right on!

That's how to hit Sam Walton's kids in the wallet. Heavy Consumption Tax.

Sam's kids don't earn paychecks. They don't pay taxes on their trust fund checks. Sam never paid taxes on his billions. Remember, he never sold the stock.

Why are all the Rockefellers a bunch of liberals? Because they don't pay taxes, while the middle class is carrying the burden.

Democrats, please start trying to use your brains. When you promote income tax, you are screwing yourself.

by KenTX on 11/30/2007 12:11:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
consumption taxes screw the lower and middle classes because they SPEND *most* or *all* of their income (you know, like my link on the middle class showing hoe many live paycheck to paycheck), which means they're taxed on 100% of their income indirectly.

They can't afford to stash money away in the bank to accumulate interest, etc.

by ihavenobias on 11/30/2007 01:08:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
and so are most democrats.  It's the republicans fighting tooth and nail to get rid of it using questionable phrasing ("death tax") and trying to scare average people into thinking they'll lose their farms which is a crock of shit.

They also say it's a "success tax" which is another crock of shit.

by ihavenobias on 11/30/2007 01:10:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I generally oppose all taxation. If you have to take it from somewhere though, this strikes me as a fair place to do it.

by acroso on 11/30/2007 10:03:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
[new] I love how acroso simply makes things up (none / 0)...

Social Security was started by Teddy Rosevelt (R)

Social Security Act was passed in 1935. Teddy Roosevelt assumed room temperature in 1919. I like the way Randomambusher simply makes things up.

by Twba on 12/01/2007 11:06:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
He's just too stupid to know the difference.

by KenTX on 12/01/2007 12:43:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He's just too stupid to know the difference.

Are you referring to Randomambusher or Acroso?

The problem with kids these days is that they are dumber than dirt.

by Twba on 12/02/2007 12:08:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I had no idea you where that young

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 12/02/2007 01:53:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I've got t-shirts older than you. Now, get off my lawn.

by Twba on 12/02/2007 02:18:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Living proof that you dont have to be young to be "dumb as dirt"

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 12/02/2007 02:22:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You correctly spelled clarification. You are moving up fast. Congratulations.

by Twba on 12/02/2007 02:42:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I just realized I said TR instead of FDR. I was tired when I wrote it. Teddy started the progressive movement. But you got me. I made a mistake. My one for your twenty.

by Randomambusher on 12/02/2007 06:48:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
“These Ways of the Heart and Spirit, would guide us to a Patriotism including all Humanity, not Ego based. “

Where have I heard this before?

Oh yeah! I thought it sounded like neocommunist Hugo Chavez.

"The old values of individualism, capitalism and egoism must be demolished."

You might be surprised to know that the rate of federal spending is currently running roughly equivalent to revenue from taxation. That means that taxing and spending are in balance.

Anyone concerned about the magnitude of the national debt should be in favor of significant cuts in federal spending. Somehow liberals are never in favor of spending cuts.

by KenTX on 11/29/2007 02:40:33 AM EST

I'm hugely in favour of spending cuts - not across the board but in a lot of departments.

Like the make cetrain companies rich Department.

And the Defense Department. 

by Randomambusher on 11/29/2007 07:57:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Both the Repubs & Dems are Sh!t parties and both screw the taxpayer in the end. 

The only difference is Repubs spend all the taxpayers dollars and then borrows funds from other countries with the promise of paying it back at a later time, thus causing the taxpayer to have to pay back future funds & "interest" on those borrowed funds.

 

 

 

 

by BrettJamesonIII on 11/29/2007 08:30:01 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I like "spend and pretend", because what they do is spend however and whatever they want and pretend that we don't have to pay it back.  Then they tell their idiot constituency "see, we lowered your taxes and gave you your money back!". 

Oh no, you shouldn't have brought it up!  Here it comes!

Rant mode on: 

Politically it's a perfect stand to take.  The beautiful thing about debt, and what the Republicans love about it, is that it puts the responsibility on the shoulders of some unknown future person.  Of course, sooner or later, someone has to be a grownup and cut spending and/or increase taxes to try to keep us from drowning in debt.  It's easy after the fact to snipe at such people.  This was the case with the first Bush, who had to deal with Reagan's excesses by raising taxes.  He took a hit for this but it was the mature thing to do after two terms with a president that always pretended that what he spent didn't matter.  He was a realist while Reagan was an actor, and we all know how grounded in reality actors can be.  (Fucking Republicans and their goddamned Hollywood politicians)

Junior has taken Reagan's lala land economics and doubled-down on it.  He's spent more than any other president in history, and increased the debt more than any other.  No problem, why should he care, he'll be on the speaking circuit when the shit really hits the fan.  If it gets too bad he can just fade into the background, safe with his money and his smug convictions, while his successor sweats out an intolerable situation and cuts benefits to the old and raises taxes on everyone else.

The Republicans always tell us that we'll "grow our way out of debt".  It sounds wonderful, doesn't it?  We'll just get so goddamned rich that $9 trillion means nothing!  That would be great, I wish it would happen.  

Now for reality. The last twenty five years or so have seen economic growth unprecedented in history.   The Republicans will claim this is a result of lowering taxes.   This is bullshit.  The growth was a direct result of cheaper energy prices.  This may well have been the last period of cheap energy, at least in our lifetimes, and may be the last ever.  Was that period of cheap fossil energy well spent?  It put money into a lot of people's pockets for sure but now we find ourselves using 25% of the world's energy and the world demand catching up with supply, and all alternative sources don't add up to 10% of what we use.  They almost never discuss this because the ramifications are too big, and no one is going to get elected on a platform that realistic.  We need to understand something very important.  Without this energy we are nowhere, we are screwed.  There is no way to sustain our economy without it.  Even a 10% reduction means a heavy recession.  We've got to somehow convert to a new efficient transportation infrastructure that doesn't depend near as heavily on fossil fuel.  This is a monumental task.  We face it with 9 trillion in debt and a population of people in denial.  When you consider this the $1 trillion we just blew on Iraq takes on an enormous significance.  Will it be the straw that broke the camel's back?  That money can only be justified if we stay there and exploit their oil.  I assure you that any moral reservations about doing this will disappear as energy becomes more and more expensive.

What we really needed the last two terms was a great leader.  We needed someone who could create and guide a huge project of restructuring our energy usage to conform to the changing world.  What we got instead was a spoiled kid who's natural inclination, when he is running out of something, is to snatch more of it from someone else.  Never a thought is given to what happens when all the other kids run out.

Rant mode off.  Blood pressure slowly returning to normal. 

by bfaul on 11/29/2007 10:41:57 AM EST

"We face it with 9 trillion in debt and a population of people in denial."

The federal government spends $3 trillion per year of taxpayer's money. Are you in favor of dramatic cuts in federal spending? 

Yes or no. Don't wait for the translation!

by KenTX on 11/29/2007 12:09:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Absolutely.  I'd like to  see someone who really knows their shit go to work and surgically remove some fat.  Across-the-board cuts are  what they typically do, because at their heart politicians hate having to really work at it, but it doesn't work any better than throwing 10 billion dollars at some problem and then pretending your work is over once the money is allocated.

I'd actually like to see them tie taxes to spending.  When spending goes up in a given year, the tax rate should automatically adjust to compensate.  Then when some asshole spends $100 billion dollars and the taxes start to climb they would take the political hit the next January.  No more sloughing it off on the next guy.  Tax rates also ought to increase in some ratio to the total debt, so that tax income goes up enough to compensate for when we're in the red.  I'm sick of seeing taxes used as a political football by people trying to buy the votes of the simple minded.  If higher taxes were the automatic  result of higher spending people would start to watch what the government spends much more closely and critcally.  We wouldn't be in this war either if it were set up that way, of that much I'm sure.  

by bfaul on 11/29/2007 01:33:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I favor adequate funding for *investment programs* in society.

Like money spent on health care, education, alternative energy research, etc. I also believe the best welfare program is a good job, which is at least part of the reason why importing and exporting our jobs is so ridiculous (and don't tell me about low unemployment, those numbers are deflated and only include "active" unemployment).

Is there waste to be cut out?  Of course, no one disagrees with that point.  For starters, the phrase "no bid contracts" (something quite common since the war started) should cease to exist. As should funding for "abstinence only" education.  Or how about 14 billion dollar subsidies to oil companies who at the same time record *record profits*?

Ultimately, it's true that both parties are wasteful in some ways, but at least democrats generally pay in cash rather than raiding the national retirement account or putting everything on a Giant National Credit Card (i.e. raiding the social security trust fund for billions of dolllars along with borrowing billions creating trillions of interest laden debt).

What is "fiscally responsible" about spending money you don't have?  Do you teach your kids to live that way?  And bitching about entitlement programs isn't the point, because they aren't an excuse to drive this country deeper and deeper into debt. 

More and more of our tax dollars are spent each year just paying interest, thanks largely to Reagan who borrowed more than all presidents before him COMBINED, from George Washington to Jimmy Carter.

Now Bush has borrowed more than Reagan did.  This fact alone should make you an inde.



by ihavenobias on 11/29/2007 01:36:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Cut spending. Lets see  I have an idea. why not bring the troops home from Iraq? that will save some money

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 11/29/2007 07:29:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
FDR and the Democratic Congress enacted Social Security and many of the so called entitlements. Many were protection of the safety of workers, hours of work, protecting children, etc.  Chiefly the Democrats enacted and signed 15 of the 16 policies which were part of the Socialist Party's platform, under the leadership of Norman Thomas who had run for President 4 times.

Many of these 15 had been endorsed and proposed by Teddy Roosevelt (R).

On spending, only President Clinton (should I say the First President Clinton?) balanced the budget.  There were real cuts.

Many talk cuts, but don't attempt to follow through.  Is that lying?

Lie & Spend also refers to many other areas, ex. Speaking out and voting for morality (Someone's view of morality atleast) and then tapping their foot in a public toilett, etc. etc.

Of course the biggest lies kill American soldiers, kill massive numbers of civilians, vs. only a few terrorists, pouring gasoline on the fire. 

When the Oceans rise
How much from Lies?

We should have gone after Bin Laden.

Be honest, the best way to protect from nucear bombs is to get rid of all of them.   If most everyone is working that way it would provide a multitude of benefits.  But then again the arms industries might not make as much money if peace broke out.

Capitalism will be here for a long time; and should be here for a long time.  I'm for getting rich, but not for making more poor.

Talk from your head,
talk from you heart,
listen to the other guy,
avoids a faulty start.

Enough stiring the pot for now.

Mannington Phil


by ManningtonPhil on 11/29/2007 11:54:55 PM EST

1. Repeal the Bush tax cuts, and raise the top tax bracket rate to 50%, as ihavenobias suggested. (~$400 billion/year)

2.  Cut military spending 70%, depending on our military solely to defend our nation while depending on the international community (with our proportional representation) to defend our interests abroad. (~$350 billion/year)

3. Greatly increase the estate tax, making "estate brackets": 0% for $0-1 million, 25% $1-2 million, 50% $2-3 million, 75% over $3 million ($50 billion/year)

4. Stop farm subsidies entirely.  (~$30 billion/year)

5. Close corporate tax loopholes (~$30 billion/year) (http://iht.com/articles/20 05/01/28/news/tax.php)

6. Pass a "Read the Bills" act and a "One subject per bill", remove pork (local projects from federal funds), and eliminate earmarks. (~$20 billion/year)

7. Stop the War on Drugs and legalize marijuana
. (~$10 billion/year)

 I figure we could probably use that ~$900 billion in better ways.

by johnpseudo on 11/30/2007 11:21:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
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