12/07/2007 01:56:51 PM EST

Mitt Romney's Ironic Speech on Religious Tolerance

posted by Cenk

Let me paraphrase Mitt Romney: Don't hate me for my religion, hate atheists and agnostics for theirs!

This is his JFK speech on religious tolerance? This must be a joke. How is anyone taking this seriously?

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Here is the exact quote from Romney's speech:

"It is as if they're intent on establishing a new religion in America - the religion of secularism. They're wrong."

How about if I said this:

"It is as if Romney is intent on establishing a new religion in America -- the religion of Mormonism. He is wrong."

Well, actually there would be nothing wrong with that since Mormonism is wrong. Their prophet looked into a magic hat to read magic tablets with his magic glasses. Magic hat? Really?

I'm agnostic. I don't believe in any of the major, organized religions. So, I'm not singling out Mormonism. There are patently absurd parts of all of the religious texts (in fact, most of the texts). I'm always amused by Christians -- who believe the magic man Jesus is going to suck them up into heaven while the rest of us die fiery deaths -- making fun of Mormons for their quizzical beliefs.

But this isn't about legitimate criticism of each other's beliefs. It's one thing to criticize a person's religious beliefs and it's another to do it while pretending to give a speech about religious tolerance.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Romney criticizing atheists or agnostics. I also don't think there's anything wrong with him criticizing the people who set up the "religion" of secularism in this country, namely George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, etc.

He's not going to get my vote, but thanks to the people he criticizes, it's a free country. He can believe and say anything he likes. Just don't pretend to be tolerant while you're doing it.

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Mitt Romney's Ironic Speech on Religious Tolerance | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)
Yes, thank you (none / 0)
I love the point about how funny it is for more traditional Christians (whatever that means) to mock mormons for their strange beliefs.

In fact I remember ending up in a car once (needed a ride home, long story) with a small group of Christians and somehow the topic of Jehova's Witnesses came up.

Long story short, it ended with them all getting a good laugh at the wacky beliefs of that "fringe religion".

Right, because pregnancy without sex and stories about zombies (what else do you call people coming back from the dead) are so clearly rational.

PS---For the record, I'm technically agnostic too, only because I can't actually disprove God (or the invisible goblin that steals one sock from every load of my laundry). 

With that said, I'm much more willing to accept that idea that *something* created all this, but that *it* doesn't necessarily have our best interests at heart (i.e. *it* is more likely to be neutral about our lives and deaths at best). 

by ihavenobias on 12/07/2007 02:11:40 PM EST

It's also ironic... (none / 0)
...that his speech to answer questions about his religion raised more than there before he gave it...

Candidates who introduce their faith into the debate need to deal with a reoccurring theme this election cycle and that is - judgement and it is not only appropriate to ask candidates about their religions beliefs it is our responsibility when they make speeches like this...

Romney needs to explain who the "they" he is referring to are and why secularism is wrong because, as you so rightly point out it was those secular founders who gave him the right to practice any religion he chooses in the first place...

Further to that, Mormons have had a very checkered past with the US government and as an ordained high priest in the Melchizedek Priesthood he should answer in full what impact that position has on his decision making process...

by keith on 12/07/2007 02:52:18 PM EST

He didnt explain much (none / 0)
Judging by that bizarre speech. The notion of separation of church and state seems to be lost on him. Speeches like that scare the bejeezus out of Europeans. He didn't explain much either. He mentioned Mormons once and never used the term Church of Latter Day Saints.

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 12/07/2007 06:59:03 PM EST

Okay Ken, explain again to us (none / 0)

why Mitt felt compelled to have to give this speech?

After all the Religious Right doesn't really care if he's a Mormon. Hasn't that been premise of your thesis in the previous discussions on this topic? 

I'm thinking this speech did more harm than good when it comes to the Right Wing Religious Wacko's lining up behind Mitt.

I know that Jesus and the Devil are brothers may not bother some, and the whole there are more than one God isn't that big a deal to a few, and I imagine that among some the practice until 1978, of excluding Blacks as members of the Church (curse of Ham and all that) will get a positive response. But........Taken as a whole I'm thinking Mitt will not poll well among the faithful as attention to Mormon beleifs come under closer scrutiny by the general population.

Is it fair? Not at all,... but I do believe it was the Rethugs who started us down the faith test a few elections ago and now it seems to be Rethugs who are trying to tell us it's not fair.

I do wonder if in Rethugs are rethinking the entire alliance with Dobson, Robinson, Falwell and the rest of the extreme Religious Right was such a great long term stratagy.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/09/2007 02:39:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hubble (none / 0)
If you take another look at my posts my point was clear.

If Mitt or Rudy wins the nomination, Christian conservatives will suck it up and vote for the Republican over Hillary Clinton.

Similarly, if Huckabee wins the nomination, economic consevatives like myself will bite the bullet and vote for him.

The only prediction I made was that the winner of the GOP South Carolina primary would win the nomination.

If a bunch of Baptists prefer a Baptist preacher over a Mormon, I won't be terribly surprised.

by KenTX on 12/09/2007 03:58:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Huckabee? (none / 0)
Similarly, if Huckabee wins the nomination, economic consevatives like myself will bite the bullet and vote for him.

Really?

Why?

by jarett on 12/09/2007 05:36:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Why Chucklebee? (none / 0)
chucklebee
Because the alternative is absolutely unthinkable.

Why would Jarett vote for Hillary over Rudy? Because he roots for the Democrat Party in the same way he roots for the Fighting Irish.

by KenTX on 12/09/2007 08:01:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I would vote for Hillary over Rudy (none / 0)
because SOMEONE has to repair our completely asinine foreign policy.  Rudy is definitely not going to do it.  He has precisely nothing in the way of intellectual honesty (his famous jab at Ron Paul when Paul told the truth about the terrorists' reasons for attacking us illustrates this well).  He has no experience in federal government or anything above city-level whatsoever.  He has a strong record of authoritarianism.  He does not live in the reality-based community.  Rudy fails.

by jarett on 12/09/2007 10:59:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Jarett, (none / 0)
I don't want to embarrass you because you're a fine young man with a brilliant future.

You don't know it yet, but you're a future Republican, so I go to great effort to avoid pissing you off.

That said, I can't overlook the fact that you've been waffling and flip flopping on the subject of Rudy. As the forum historian, it's my job to keep up with these positions.

by KenTX on 12/09/2007 11:17:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Ken, Ken, Ken (none / 0)

When you post things like

"If Mitt or Rudy wins the nomination, Christian conservatives will suck it up and vote for the Republican over Hillary Clinton."

you only show that you really do need to step out of your gated community were everyone makes $100,000 a year even Jesus the lawn man and get to know a few real people who take their faith seriously and going to church isn't just a chance to socialize and network with potential business associates.

The real fundamentalist are not going to suck it up and vote for someone they don't believe is a "REAL" Christian no matter how much "Faith" you have that they will.

Comparing Kennedy with Romney really doesn't work Ken, when Kennedy ran the country was 30% Catholic right now the Mormons are less than 2%.

Like I said you keep on "keeping faith alive", the mere fact that Romney felt compelled to give his "Don't hold my faith against me." speech is evidence that his faith is becoming a huge issue.   

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/09/2007 07:57:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
George Will (none / 0)
George Will on This Week expressed dismay at all this religiosity entering into civic affairs, and he said something to the effect that if it continues, there will be a backlash against it. I have never hoped more than now that George Will is right.  In fact, I pray he is right.

Why is it so damned hard for a candidate to say religion is a private matter and has nothing to do with politics, governance or the campaign and that it's none of anybody else's business?  It's another disappointment from Obama. He isn't standing up for the separation of Church and State and Politics.  In fact, due to the confusion about his religious background, he has to go out of his way to show that he is pious or believing or some such nonsense.

David

by yturks on 12/09/2007 10:22:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In a perfect world Dave you are right BUT (none / 0)

The problem is that the Conservatives entered into an unholy alliance with the Right Wing Religious Wacko's, and they were the ones who instructed their sheeple on voting for the Rethugs based upon their self proclaimed love of "The Baby Jesus" and now that beast is out of the box.

The problem that the cons are going to have is that the rank and file of the Religious Right truly drank the Koolaid and someone like Mitt isn't going to pass the smell test.

As Fred said in a previous post, he used to walk the walk and I have lived alongside these people who are still walking it all my life, I understand how they think.They believe Mormons while perfectly nice aren't really Christian.

As I've pointed out before if you aren't a Christian you are in league with the Devil (We all know the path to Hell is paved with good intentions, as Satan is the great deceiver) so while Mitt might be a great guy with great values they aren't real Christian values. 

Now Pastor BillyBobJoeJohn has been telling them for years they gotta go vote for politicians who will stand up for "Christian Values", and the only way to do that is to vote for REAL CHRISTIANS.

Of course religion should be a private matter but let's all remember it was the Republican Party who decided to make it public by running on "Christian Values" so as this episode unfolds I can't help but chuckle just a bit at the quagmire the cons find themselves in and the bravado of some of  the cons (Ken) in their (his) assurances that the Religious folk will keep following in lockstep. 

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/09/2007 10:47:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
They can't say that... (none / 0)
...because its pure politics and frankly, I think candidates religious views should be called into question as they define by a large extent the moral framework through which they make decisions and the lens with which they view the world. 75%+ of the voting population identifies with some form of Christianity and they whether they are evangelical or not they absolutely by definition cannot disassociate their religious beliefs from their civic/social positions so moderate, intelligent candidates have to pander to these people.

by keith on 12/10/2007 08:21:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Romney (none / 0)
Watch this video.

by acroso on 12/09/2007 09:08:15 PM EST

Well (none / 0)
He could've handled it better but if the general message is that it's (overall) a nutty set of beliefs based on complete and utter bullshit, he's right.

I respect your (generally speaking, not you specifically) right to believe in crazy bullshit, but there is no reason I have to respect your actual nonsensical beliefs.

Maybe he's extra fired up because he plays a mormon and he has a better understanding of just how fucked up it is than most of us(?).

by ihavenobias on 12/09/2007 11:15:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
mormon (none / 0)
You'd think they wouldn't let someone who is bigoted against Mormons play that role on HBO so he can spend his time making jabs and protraying them in poor light on t.v.

by acroso on 12/09/2007 11:20:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Is there a good religion? (none / 0)
"I respect your (generally speaking, not you specifically) right to believe in crazy bullshit, but there is no reason I have to respect your actual nonsensical beliefs."

I hope this doesn't mean that you actually believe that one religion is more reasonable and logical than another religion?

by KenTX on 12/09/2007 11:23:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Not really (none / 0)
They are all generally ridiculous and they all generally have some basic, common sense ideas that no one really disagrees with (don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat, etc.).  Do we really need crazy fairy tales to reinforce such obvious ideas that any sane group of people could come up with a few minutes of thought?

In fact, that's why Thomas Jefferson had the right idea when he took a bible and crossed out all supernatural references.  You can even buy it at a book store or online.

I think mormonism just seems slightly more ridiculous because it was created so recently (relative to most other religions) making it an even more blatant fraud.

More traditional Christian beliefs were started back when fairy tale nonsense would've been much easier to accept.
 
Granted, I realize the 1800's-early 1900's weren't especially advanced compared to now, but they *were* compared to 1,000-2,000 years ago, leading me to ask how so many people were duped by this Joseph Smith fool? 

I mean, it's one thing to just fall in line with what your parents taught you about God and quite another to start listening to some random guy with fantastic stories about a new version of how it all happened, and in such a relatively recent time period.

Then again there is Bible 1.0 (Old Testament), Bible 2.0 (New Testament) and Bible 3.0 (Koran) so it's possible Bible 4.0 is right around the corner (and people who buy 4.0 will explain how the older versions are now outdated, except maybe the common sense parts and the stuff about gay=evil).

Of course you'd think God would know enough to make ONE book to last and evolve forever but hey, what do I know, right?

by ihavenobias on 12/09/2007 11:44:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There is worse (none / 0)
You think they where duped. Check into Scientology heh

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 12/09/2007 11:47:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Germany (none / 0)
Germany is outlawing that religion right?

by acroso on 12/09/2007 11:55:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yea I think so (none / 0)
Yea I think so. I think other countries in Europe have some kind of sanction against them too. I personally dont think they should be tax exempt. But there is always a legal argument in regards to what the difference between a cult and a religion is .

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 12/10/2007 01:34:27 AM EST

[ Parent ]
err (none / 0)
I think we should err on the side of freedom to practice religion.

by acroso on 12/10/2007 02:09:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
let em (none / 0)
I dont care if they believe aliens live in them. I just think they need to pay taxes. Considering how politally active churches are.. both liberal and conservative. I dont think any of them should have tax exempt status.

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 12/10/2007 03:35:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
political report (none / 0)
I like Novak's political report. People should try signing up for it- it's free!

by acroso on 12/11/2007 01:32:32 AM EST

Mitt Romney's Ironic Speech on Religious Tolerance | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)
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