Does the Second Amendment Protect Shoulder Fired Missiles?

Email Print posted by Cenk 04/17/2007 11:25:05 AM EST

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Here we go again. We're going to have the tired old debate about whether it was the guns that killed the kids at Virginia Tech or the clearly disturbed guy who used them. The answer is so obvious that I can't bear to go through another round of this debate. Of course, it's both!

A perfectly sane individual isn't going to kill those kids even if you gave them a thousand guns. And that same mentally-ill guy isn't going to be able to kill 32 people with a bow and arrow

Someone called into our show today and said that there was a case in Japan where there was a mass stabbing and eight people were killed. Okay, now name one other mass stabbing. There aren't any other stabbing massacres or drive by stabbings. It's very hard to kill people on a large scale these days without guns. Denying that is being purposely obtuse.

That's not necessarily the end of the conversation. There are other factors at play. I think the Second Amendment is complicated and might very well apply to individuals, as well as, well-regulated militias. There is an issue of freedom. But people have to recognize that freedom isn't free. There is a price attached to our gun liberties. And there is also a limit.

How about RPGs? The NRA argues that Americans should have an absolute right to own semi-automatic weapons. Should Americans then also have the unfettered and absolute right to own shoulder fired missiles? Rocket propelled grenade launchers can also be characterized as firearms. They are just a really big shot gun with really big bullets. Does the second amendment apply to shoulder fired rocket launchers?

On the issue of abortion, we have begun to come to the center. A significant majority of the country recognizes a women's right to choose but they also recognize that we can put reasonable limits on some forms of abortion. Whether you agree or disagree, that is what a solid majority of the country believes.

Can we not find a similar middle ground on guns? You're not going to be able to put the gun genie back in the bottle in America, but isn't it possible to have some reasonable restrictions? In Virginia, you can walk into a gun show and walk out with any of the weapons there without any check whatsoever. That isn't reasonable.

Just think of some of the disturbing people you have met in your lifetime, whether they're the guy staring at you with that crazy look in his eye in the New York City subway or the really weird fellow at the rodeo who doesn't fit in with anyone. Your neighbors, your classmates, your co-workers. Think about all of them with guns. Man, if that doesn't scare the bejesus out of you, you don't live in the same place I do.

Yes, weird dudes kill people. But you know what really helps - guns and bullets. It's hard to limit weird dudes. It's a little easier to have reasonable limits on the guns they might buy and use against us.

The Young Turks

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Does the Second Amendment Protect Shoulder Fired Missiles? | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)
Virginia Tech is a "gun-free zone". (none / 0)

Much Safer 

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn’t get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill’s defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. “I’m sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly’s actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.”

Here is anoter quote from spokesman Larry Hinckman said in 2005, about Virginia Tech’s ill-fated policy:

“I think it’s fair to say that we believe guns don’t belong in the classroom. In an academic environment, we believe you should be free from fear.”

 
FATAL SHOOTINGS at Virginia Tech?!

"Background For those of you not from the Commonwealth of Virginia, we're known--perhaps even "notorious"--for being adamant supporters of 2nd Amendment rights [ed.: In other words, we're an Open-Carry State]. Don't let that confuse you, though: These "rights" we're so supportive of do not transfer to our universities. From Virginia Tech's student policy:

Unauthorized possession, storage (in vehicles on campus as well as in the residence halls), or control of firearms and weapons on university property is prohibited. (NOTE: Organizational weapons of the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets, approved by the commandant, are not prohibited by this policy.) Firearms are defined as any gun, rifle, pistol, or handgun designed to fire bullets, BBs, pellets, or shots (including paint balls), regardless of the propellant used. Other weapons are defined as any instrument of combat or any object not designed as an instrument of combat but carried for the purpose of inflicting or threatening bodily injury. Examples include (but are not limited to) knives with fixed blades or pocketknives with blades longer than four inches, razors, metal knuckles, blackjacks, hatchets, bows and arrows, nun chahkas, foils, or any explosive or incendiary device. Possession of realistic replicas of weapons on campus is prohibited. Students who store weapons in residence hall rooms, who brandish weapons, or who use a weapon in a reckless manner may face disciplinary action that may include suspension or dismissal from the university. Refer to Section V.W. for additional information about Weapons.

In short, don't start blaming this on our "gun culture." I can assure you that our very liberal colleges have no such thing. This is the action of someone who's clearly got criminal intent, nothing more."

by sirfith on 04/17/2007 11:46:57 AM EST

try this (none / 0)
Why don't Democrats try running on a strict gun control platform in the 2008 campaign? You could propose a national ban on 9mm handguns, like those used at VA Tech. See how that sells to the voters.

by KenTX on 04/17/2007 12:08:06 PM EST

actually the gun ownership issue is settled law (none / 0)
"Guns have no other purpose than killing someone or something. All the other murder weapons Americans use, from automobiles to blunt objects, exist for another purpose and sometimes are used to kill. But guns are manufactured and bought to kill. They invite their owners to think about killing, to practice killing, and, eventually, to kill, if not other people, then animals. They are objects of temptation, and every so often, someone comes along who cannot resist the temptation--someone who would not have murdered, or murdered so many, if he did not have a gun, if he were reduced to a knife or a bludgeon or his own strength. I wish that the right wing would admit that, while people kill people and even an "automatic" weapon needs a shooter, people with guns kill more people than people without guns do. "

Jane Smiley

The gun ownership issue is settled law. People do not have an inherent right to own a gun, there are serveral law suits one could refer to.  Thats why its legal for states to impose certain restrictions etc.

Eddie Izzard said. 
 
Guns don't kill people, people do. So do monkeys that have guns.

by Left Is Right on 04/17/2007 01:24:47 PM EST

People will find a way (none / 0)
If you thought the VA attack was scary how about this one?  I remember reading about this one many years ago and a quick google search turned up an article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ uk_news/540387.stm

Fear the Naked Ninja!

by alphasigmookie on 04/17/2007 01:44:04 PM EST

Guns (none / 0)
Okay, now name one other mass stabbing.

Man stabs 28 after opening of Berlin train station.

It's very hard to kill people on a large scale these days without guns.

In a few weeks, hundreds of thousands were hacked to death with machetes.

I think the Second Amendment is complicated and might very well apply to individuals, as well as, well-regulated militias.

Unless your law degree came from the bottom of a Cracker Jack box, you already know that the Second Amendment applies to individuals.

Should Americans then also have the unfettered and absolute right to own shoulder fired missiles?

Ask the ATF.

by Twba on 04/17/2007 02:36:20 PM EST

A potato gun is outlawed? (none / 0)
I need to check into the statute of limitations.

There are some members of my college fraternity who remain at large as unconvicted felons.

by KenTX on 04/17/2007 02:52:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Destructive device (none / 0)
More info for the spud gun enthusiast.

by Twba on 04/17/2007 03:09:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Shoot first, ask later - Florida (none / 0)
Wow, add that to my list of city violations.

that they are used solely for launching potatoes for recreational purposes.

It is always recreation! Why else would I launch potatoes?

by jazzchic on 04/17/2007 03:35:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
April 17th Gonzales Testimony (none / 0)
Mourn, please mourn.  Be outraged. But doesn't anyone care that Gonzales was supposed to testify today?  AG has caused a lot more than 33 people to die.   Stay on target people.   Mourn the 33, but don't get distracted from the larger menace against civilized society.  I can't find anything on CNN right now about AG.

Wake up sheeple.  We can care about more than one important issue at a time.

by ColdOhio on 04/17/2007 03:14:19 PM EST

Hey Weiner Dog (none / 0)
Aren't we supposed to square off on the issue of global warming? I haven't forgot about you.

by KenTX on 04/17/2007 03:21:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We can spare a few days to mourn and eliminate AG (none / 0)
We can spare a few days to mourn and eliminate another deadly menace, AG ;)

By the way.... let's do each other a favor and call it Global Climate Change.  Global Warming is misleading and that's how a lot people get tricked into thinking climate change isn't real.  Also....  Your corporate buddies on the global scene are stabbing the Corps in the back.  Even Nike says it's a closed system and the Earth needs taking care of.  ROFL

http://www.nike.com/nikebiz /nikebiz.jhtml?page=27& cat=ate&subcat=closedsy stem

by ColdOhio on 04/17/2007 03:56:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Cost Of Doing Business (none / 0)
In our free society, we must come to acknowledge that there are trade offs between those freedoms which we prize and the safety of giving up those freedoms.  With regard to the 2nd Amendment, we have largely as a people chosen to remain free to allow the manufacture and sale of firearms (both domestically and abroad).  In so retaining this freedom we are compelled to accept incidents of horror such as that that occurred at Virginia Tech as a cost of that freedom.  It is not the first time and it will NOT be the last something like this happens here.
Whether the Constitution protects individual’s right to possess RPGs (or thermo-nuclear devices for that matter) would seem clear, but perhaps not.  The Constitution merely uses the term “arms” but refrains from defining what that might mean.  For the strict constructionist/originalist conservative type looking to the text of the document and the experience and understanding of the framers to make that determination it seems clear that we, even now, as individuals would be protected in our right to bear and keep only muskets and cannon such as that that existed in the 1790s.  (I suspect that no Republican NRA member will now give up their semiautomatic assault riffles)  To the progressive “living document” minded among us, the Constitution would seem to allow for possession of virtually any legitimate implement of war as dictated by the relevant time period within which such questions about what we may bear and keep should arise.  What a conundrum. 

It is worth remembering, however,--and I've stated it here before--that, as it stands now, individual states may choose to outlaw all firearms within that state to the extent that doing so comports with their own State Constitutions.  Whether the 2nd Amendment apples to the states and therefore constrains states from doing so has never been decided.

by nfc on 04/17/2007 03:44:51 PM EST

you asked for it (none / 0)
"Whether the 2nd Amendment apples to the states and therefore constrains states from doing so has never been decided."

It will be decided soon.

by KenTX on 04/17/2007 03:48:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I support elimination of gun control (none / 0)
KenTex,  I'm with you on this.  I am completely in favor of it as long as you have the right to conceal carry in EVERY public and private place in the US.  Including all State capital buildings, Federal Capital buildings and every other state and federal buidling in the US, including courtrooms.  Let the lawmakers put theirs lives where their mouths are.  If they will allow guns in their place of work then i'm with you 100%.  Honest!  You and everyone in the country should be allowed to conceal-carry where the lawmakers work.   If they won't agree to it then noone should not be allowed to conceal-carry anywhere in the US.    All or nothing.  Up or Down.  Let's do it.  :)     I have never heard a pro-gun argument that would proclude lawmakers.  If anything lawmakers would be more secure if they all carried firearms and all their constituents carried them.  Right?

by ColdOhio on 04/17/2007 04:20:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Education about "assault weapons" (none / 0)
It is not exactly clear what your point is, but since you brought up the subject of assault weapons I reccomend this youtube video.  It does a very good job of explaining "assault weapons"

http://www.youtube.com/watc h?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0

by alphasigmookie on 04/17/2007 04:37:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
violence (none / 0)

It’s sad to see how many people are dealing problems with violence.

Some religions encourage people to take revenge on others; some regimes use violence to control their people. While some video games teach kids how to be violent; some adults show to kids how to solve problems with violence without noticing what influence they might give.

It happens not only between people and people, but also between nations. As one of the leading country in the world, the U.S. government should not show their leadership in a violent way. Bush’s “War on Terror” is one of the great examples.

It is clear that the military solution is continuing to worsen the situation in Iraq, so now is time to reinforce a humanitarian aid to bring peace to the world.

Instead spending $522 billion on U.S. military budget and wasting our precious lives by sending more troops, we can use the money to save so many lives by providing food, water access and sanitation. According to The Borgen Project, it only costs $19 billion to eliminate global hunger.

I hope U.S. political leaders will make a commitment to the U.N.’s Millennium Development Goals to stop the global poverty and make the world a better place.

by DaShamu on 04/17/2007 04:43:15 PM EST

shoulder fired missles (none / 0)
The Neo-Cons aren't finished yet, and since they have most of the media outlets either in their control or ran by fellow travelers, I, for one, am for legalizing all manner of weaponry.  

Watch for "reasonable republicans" coming out for gun control, that will be the first warning.  Actually, they don't even have to do that, they just have to let the Dems do it for them, at the same time they'll get disaffected Independents to return to voting in their favor.  For them it's a two-fer.

Ben you don't have to be able to defeat an Army, look at Iraq.

by smashmouth dem on 04/17/2007 04:48:12 PM EST

Humanity is so self-centered. (none / 0)
I think more than gun control or lack there of, we need to pay attention to the people around us. Step out of our obliviousness and learn about our surroundings.

The VT shooter apparently came to the minds of other students and professors even before they knew his identity.

I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun, I was that freaked out about him

Not everyone cries out for help, and not everyone can be helped. But really, how often are the protagonists in these situations a complete surprise?

Writings of the shooter as shared by a classmate:
http://newsbloggers.aol.com 2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis- plays

by jazzchic on 04/17/2007 05:19:52 PM EST

Here's what I'm curious about (none / 0)
Why does the NRA oppose gun licenses?

(Note this is distinct from gun registration.)

What if gun licenses permitted more freedom in public and concealed carry?  Would there still be opposition to them?

by jarett on 04/17/2007 06:08:42 PM EST

BB (none / 0)
Do you own a Charter Arms Bulldog .44?

by KenTX on 04/18/2007 02:56:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
gun-free (none / 0)

One qualified and licensed armed student or teacher would have ended the massacre. Instead we hear stories of brave holocaust surviving faculty and students being cut down unarmed.

We'd rather be hearing about the brave armed students or faculty who put the terrorist down before he killed so many.

 This is just a testament to how the gun-free zone on campus failed because there was still a gun there yet the law abiding people were unarmed.

 We need to get serious about strengthening our gun laws and staying true to our constitutional rights in this country so as to avoid this kind of tragedy.

by acroso on 04/17/2007 06:12:38 PM EST

This whole thing makes me sick but (none / 0)

What happened at VT is terrible.

I'm one of the lefty's that actually owns several guns. Everyone who owns a gun is not a nut.

This is a tragedy but that is all it is. To blame the weapon of choice is wrong. Sure, there probably would have been fewer deaths with a different weapon of choice. But if you're a family member of the 10 students that got killed versus the 32 that died, do you think numbers count?

The guy had at least one screw loose but the media helps to perpetuate these crazies. Look at the non-stop attention. I've quit watching the news during this because I'm sick of the same talking points over and over. 

In the psychopath's eyes the media makes heroes out of these nuts! If you've decided to die and take people with you, what better way to make your mark. Stop with the 24/7 coverage!  

Outlaw guns and it will not solve the problem. Criminals and nuts will still find ways to get them. I have no problem though with reasonable waiting periods to prevent some hot head from buying a gun while in a rage. 

by MountainMan on 04/17/2007 09:51:56 PM EST

There were warning signs (none / 0)
Faculty knew the guy had problems but as usual, nothing was done!

by MountainMan on 04/17/2007 09:56:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
well (none / 0)
Well they might have put him on SSRI's?

by acroso on 04/17/2007 11:07:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Does the Second Amendment Protect Shoulder Fired Missiles? | 24 comments (24 topical, 0 hidden)
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