Christians Help Me

Email Print posted by MountainMan 05/27/2007 10:15:17 PM EST

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Especially all you Evangelicals out there

So if Christ isn't your savior you rot in hell?

What about all the folks before Christ? Are they doomed to hell?

All the Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Huns etc. are doomed to hell?

Sure will be a crowded place! 

The thousands of years and countless (millions?) people before Christ are lost?

Poor folks that lived before Christ!

Honestly. Please convert me if possible. 

I'll join your church if you can explain this to me.

Catholics even believe an un-baptised baby that dies is stuck in some kind of never land.

What a bunch of Voodoo!
 

By the way this has to do with politics since religion has become a big part of politics.

No more seperation as far as I can see. 

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Christians Help Me | 34 comments (34 topical, 0 hidden)
Didn't you read it MM? (none / 0)
There is a sign at the door of every christian church that reads

Check all logic at the door before entering.

Thank you,

JC

by z1p101 on 05/27/2007 10:35:39 PM EST

Dear Lord (none / 0)

Please don't strike MM dead...
but if you must kill the heathen make sure he is alone at least 50 feet from any believers unless they are Republicans

Amen 

by MRFred on 05/28/2007 12:43:42 AM EST

Not dead yet (none / 0)

And I try stay at least 50 feet from Republicans.

Everyone knows they give off some kind of brain wave that turns you into a Repug zombie.

Guess I'm safe on the conversion thing! 

by MountainMan on 05/28/2007 04:59:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Purgatory has been closed down (none / 0)
The Pope just said "oh BTW, we don't really believe in purgatory. So all you unbaptized babies can now go to heaven or....maybe? Actually Jesus as Saviour is one of the least absurd beliefs, the Ressurection and Virgin birth are a few other, but the whole idea of JC ascending into heaven is just stupid. Did he only go to the Stratosphere or did he ascend all the way without changing form? Was his earthly body still subject to the laws of physics or was he able to avoid exploding like a deep water creature brought to the surface? If so, is his physical body still in heaven and is he still using it?

by no way on 05/28/2007 08:05:05 AM EST

Kind of a big load (none / 0)

But the comeback is always "that's why it's called faith".

Well, I'm not going to jump off a cliff just because some guy who has thousands of followers says I won't die.

Can anyone say Kool-Aide?  Lotta dead bodies in Africa.

by MountainMan on 05/28/2007 05:08:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Well, since nobody else tried to answer you. (none / 0)
“I'll join your church if you can explain this to me.”

I’m not a religious person, but I’ll give it a try.

God likes you too much to want to want to see you rotating on a spit for all of eternity, looking like a miserable 7/11 rotisserie weenie.

To God, you are as amusing and loveable as a preschooler who pleads innocent after committing an offense against a fellow preschooler.

God would never condemn you to hell because you’re too much fun to have around. And besides, you are one of the few people smart enough to figure out that He doesn’t have a favorite church or religion.

The worst punishment you could possibly get is to be sent back to do this shit all over again. So be nice to people.

by KenTX on 05/28/2007 09:00:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Wow (none / 0)

I can actually accept your idea of God compared to most versions.

Funny you don't mention Christ so if he doesn't fit into your scheme of things I guess you're doomed to.

I'll be sure to look you up when we come back to do this shit again! 

by MountainMan on 05/29/2007 02:52:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The Book of KenTX (none / 0)
I am a former Baptist-turned-Atheist-turn ed-Secular Regressive-turned-Deist-tur ned Natural Logician, and all that happened just last month. I’m certainly not finished turning yet. The more I probe the more ignorant I become. The only thing I know for sure is that nobody has any answers, and I find that extremely comforting.

“I can actually accept your idea of God compared to most versions. Funny you don't mention Christ so if he doesn't fit into your scheme of things I guess you're doomed to.”

I rank Jesus right up there with Ghandi and Einstein. Anyone who preaches loving your enemies and carrying their pack an extra mile is an OK guy in my books.

My view of the universe has been known to convert the heathen and completely flummox the most arrogant “intellectual” atheists on the planet. It is very easy to defeat arrogance and certitude. Just ask George Bush.

by KenTX on 05/29/2007 03:46:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You're a more complex person than I thought (none / 0)

All along I thought you where just another lefty hating capitalistic pig wanting to destroy all social programs and supporting corporations as having the same rights as people.

You are a much deeper thinker than I gave you credit for. You'd better be careful that the real right wing folks will see you actually care about your fellow man!

You might get ex-communicated from the church of extreme conservatism. 

by MountainMan on 05/29/2007 04:38:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We're supposed to buy this now? (none / 0)

"Anyone who preaches loving your enemies and carrying their pack an extra mile is an OK guy in my books."

That's an odd statement coming from someone who believes this business in Iraq is a good idea.  If you actually subscribe to this sentiment then I'd be curious to know how it can be okay with you that we're creating all of that "collateral damage" over there in the name of being "safer" over here.  Especially given that any attacks from that quarter were speculative and, as it turns out, highly unlikely.  Better safe than sorry, right?  Although I'd bet the Iraqis are incredibly sorry by now. 

I don't know how to think about all those dead Iraqis though.  Do they count in that "love thy enemy" equation?  Were they the enemy or did they just get in the way?  Is it okay to love them now that they're dead?

by bfaul on 05/29/2007 06:19:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I've seen that movie. (none / 0)
YAWN.

by OneHitKill on 05/29/2007 11:05:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Typical BytchBeatnik freestyle (none / 0)

Even if your argument had any teeth, I'd recommend that you leave poetry to the artistically gifted.  This bit of prose:

"Or those killed on the battlefield as we fight to defend the freedoms and new government of those seeking freedom?"

is trite and tired and stupid.  When reason goes out the window, all you cheerleaders resort to peppering any old sentence with pretty-sounding words you don't really understand...words like "freedom."  Believe me...people notice when you do this, hep cat daddy-o.

by OneHitKill on 05/30/2007 07:44:23 AM EST

[ Parent ]
All of them (none / 0)

Yeah, all those people dead as a direct or indirect result of this war.  We bear at least some responsibility for all of them.  If you think their families feel otherwise you are hopelessly deluded.

They all count, even the Iraqi soldiers who died in the initial assault.  They were, after all, simply doing their duty and fighting an army invading their country.  Explain to me how it is evil to defend your country from a foreign attacker.  They can't all have been torture chamber supervisors.

The "evildoers" in the Iraq conflict work at 1600 Pennsylvannia Avenue in Washington, DC. 

by bfaul on 05/30/2007 09:59:23 AM EST

[ Parent ]
the greatest miracle (none / 0)
Lets not forget his greatest miracle when he ties his ass to a tree and walks 20 miles.

by no way on 05/28/2007 08:08:48 AM EST

Christians help me (none / 0)
It's worth noticing that among the "hooligans" that beat up Gay Pride demonstrators in Russia yesterday were church folks, this time of the Orthodox strain.  Hatred has always had a comfortable seat in the pews of some churches, as Jerry Falwell knew quite well.

by TurksTom on 05/28/2007 11:29:24 AM EST

yes, the beatings were rotten actions! (none / 0)
The beatings of the gay people were rotten.  Theology that stinks, in essense.

by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 04:55:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think I can clarify (none / 0)

You wrote:

"Catholics even believe an un-baptised baby that dies is stuck in some kind of never land."

A good analogy would be Walmart.  You see, the parking lot of Walmart on a hot summer day bakes its occupants like an oven.  There are many people stuck there (who have committed cardinal sin) in a never-ending traffic jam.  This is hell.

But a few people (who have not committed grave sins) make their way through the first doors, where there are cool drinks, horsey rides, shopping carts and shade, but no air conditioning.   This is purgatory.

Beyond this is another set of doors (gates) where the greeter (Peter) welcomes those righteous brethren (born-again Christians) into the air conditioned paradise that is the Walmart Supercenter, with anything a Christan man or woman's heart could desire.  Therein lies heaven. 

 

Any questions?

by bfaul on 05/29/2007 10:23:26 AM EST

my world view has been shattered (none / 0)
This confuses me as I thought WalMart WAS hell

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 05/29/2007 01:03:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Well, obviously you are no born again Christian. (none / 0)
If you were I wouldn't need to explain, you would just KNOW.

by bfaul on 05/29/2007 01:38:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Why believe in the Jewish guy? (none / 0)
   Why do I believe God...the triune God  Father,Son Holy Spirit
...when there are still unanswered questions Mountain Man & others bring up???

My ancient ancestors raided northern Europe (and other places) and hacked and chopped their way thru villages---partly for the plunder, slaves---partly maybe for the "high" violence brings those with no other center (except a religion with gods who exalted violence & where your afterlife is some Valhalla style frat party). 

I suspect the lack of sun in winter did nothing to improve their moods...

And CONTINENTAL Europeans prayed "Lord, deliver us from the fury of the Norseman".  Answered prayer (for the most part---the fierceness still is there---maybe just beneath the surface in me & some of my relations) Many Vikings did convert & follow the peaceful Jewish guy and walked away from their savage gods.

While today, some new historians sanitize the viking era into "Well they converted ONLY so they could trade", I
can look at my family (here & in Norway, Sweden) & I can see  those of us who still believe that the Jewish carpenter, somehow GOD and a man in one being, did the superhero thing...to reconcile those of us who CHOOSE...to come to God.  In the long term, I see a difference...in their lives, their purpose, and their effect on the next generation.

I don't have a firm answer about those who didn't hear of Jesus.  There are hints that some follow the God who rescued and rescues us without knowing His name...

..Maybe the ancient Egyptian Akhenaton, for instance, with his "sun god" stuff (dumping centuries of polytheism)...maybe the part of the Triune God (the Holy Spirit...who whispers inside us to call us to know God) maybe that's who he was following.

...Maybe some Greeks, Romans worshipped at one of the altars some had inscribed "To the unknown God"...where a jewish guy Paul came & said "Let me tell you the name of the Unknown God"...(this encounter is written in the book of Acts).

I loved comic books, particularly Superman (tm). (Later I figured it was because he most resembled Jesus.)  And Spiderman(tm) maybe reminds me of the more human, in touch with the human race Jewish guy (see the first few books of the New Testament). He could answer the toughest questions thrown at him...and the Jewish Carpenter could draw something in the dust (secret thots???) and could thus quietly shame the men ready to stone a woman to death.(Some things don't change!!!)

Not everything in the Bible has been verified externally, but if you check, an astounding amount has been...The Bible has many confirmed picky details about past times...notably customs, etc. mentioned in passing. But if you are very postmodern & don't think the past matters, well, guess you won't worry about how much of what we have put together in archaeology and ancient history confirms more & more of the Bible.

The Harvard University skeptics (several years back, probably before the big boom in archaeological research that started in the 19th century) would LAUGH at those Jews & Christians who believed the Hittites were a real people of the Middle east.  (Now the Hittites are well established.)

Argue with the Jewish carpenter yourself.  Read his stuff...Challenge him to reveal Himself to you...


by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 12:00:13 PM EST

I think THIS is pretty revealing (none / 0)
"Jesus was a spiritual and political leader of great renown. The sick came from miles around to seek his miraculous healing powers. At the height of his popularity, he triumphantly entered Jerusalem with his followers, appeared to declare himself the Messiah, violently disrupted the business of the temple, and, after being tried by Pontius Pilate himself, was put to death as a revolutionary.

Given these facts, Jesus would have been one of the most remarkable figures in Palestine. Yet not one historian of the time thought that this man was important enough to note, even in passing.

In fact, there were not even any Gospel accounts for years following the supposed death of Jesus. There is a gap of at least 4 decades before mark.. all the other gospels where derived from mark much later"

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 05/29/2007 01:06:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Reference for Historical Jesus (none / 0)
This site offers a brief summary of some ancient writers who mention Jesus (or who mention his followers just a few years after).

http://www.probe.org/conten t/view/18/77/

While some debate some of the historical references, note that they are very close to Jesus' lifetime.  Written on this day May30 2007  (history still divided at approximately His birthday...)

Note also that we are talking about a man who was a carpenter (or stone mason) in a tiny country under Roman domination.  He held no official position. THUS,
It is noteworthy that He is mentioned at all...being from a country  many Romans would have considered some backwater province.

by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 04:15:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There is no debate (none / 0)
Facts are Facts
There is no account by any historian of Jesus during his lifetime.

The Gospels didn't appear until 4 decades after the fact.

Deal with that info how you want.



--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 05/29/2007 06:21:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Jewish Carpenter Questions (none / 0)
A couple of questions about that famous Jewish carpenter:

  • Did “The Son of God” just spring to life on the day Jesus was born, or did  he always exist and just decided to pop in on his earthly creatures on day.
  • Do we know for a fact that “God the Father” and his son are truly male? Could they be female or some non-gender being?
  • Since the God the Father in the Old Testament was kind of a scary (eye for an eye) God that everyone had to fear, and God the Son was kind of a Love (turn the other cheek) God, do the Father and Son disagree on these matters, or is God a flip-flopper ?
  • Are The Jews of the Old Testament still God’s chosen people with the right to Palestine/ Israel? Or are Christians now God’s chosen people

by johnbchap2 on 05/29/2007 02:17:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think Jesus probably did exist (none / 0)

As a flesh and blood human being that did some pretty amazing things and had many followers.

Houdini sure would have raised some eyebrows back then. 

It's just the Biblical fairy tale stuff I have a hard time with. If you really believe everything in the Bible we're all the son (or daughter) of God because we're all His children. 

Just an added note on the nasty side. It doesn't matter what the Jews are because if you're a true evangelical Christian then you believe they are all going to hell anyway.

They're pretty much up there with gays.

 

by MountainMan on 05/29/2007 02:34:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Also on Jews (none / 0)
The only reason they (Christian zealots) tolerate Jews is because the Jewish state fits into their sick perception of how the world will end and they'll get to float on a rainbow (sorry for the gay reference) to heaven.

by MountainMan on 05/29/2007 02:47:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Good questions about the Jewish Carpenter (none / 0)
  • "Did “The Son of God” just spring to life on the day Jesus was born, or did  he always exist and just decided to pop in on his earthly creatures on day."
    •      The Trinity (God the Father/Son/Holy Ghost) was together before us...and no, I don't understand the concept that well....It's officially called a mystery.
      In the very beginning (see the beginning of Genesis) the old testament throws out one of its many hints about the being ancient Jews (and some Jews today) call "The Messiah".
        &nb sp; "Let us make man (men, women) in our own image..."  The plural, I am told, is in the text. In fact, I saw this plural "us" referenced in a Jewish text in a synagogue.
      There's lots more hints...including some in the Old Testament book of Isaiah.  Next time you hear the operatic style Handel's Messiah, many of the texts come from the old testament., like "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, etc." 
    and "He was wounded for our transgressions...And the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all..." a hint about his death on the cross...

    this is also an old testament hint from an old testament book KNOWN to be written several hundred years before Jesus' birth.

    by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 04:23:32 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    More good questions (none / 0)
  • Do we know for a fact that “God the Father” and his son are truly male? Could they be female or some non-gender being?


    • The Bible says "God is not a man that he should lie..." but probably the "Father" imagery is used to show God is personal and caring (like a good earthly dad).

    Some scholars think that both genders (male, female) express portions of God...

    Jesus (believed by most Christians) was fully God and fully a man in one being. (Yeah, another mystery.)  I suspect a woman in that culture (much like parts of the Mideast today) could not do much of anything, so He needed to come as a male.  NOTE Jesus' full humanity would have come ONLY from a woman per the historical Christian belief in the Incarnation.  Thus, those who seek to diminish women - diminish Jesus. 


    by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 04:32:21 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Mercy & justice and GOD how to balance both! (none / 0)
    Since the God the Father in the Old Testament was kind of a scary (eye for an eye) God that everyone had to fear, and God the Son was kind of a Love (turn the other cheek) God, do the Father and Son disagree on these matters, or is God a flip-flopper ?

    God would balance out justice (the eye for an eye stuff) and mercy.  This is a place where I and other Christians really tend to offend others--too much justice and you flatten people...too much mercy (without mentioning any standards) and people can run wild.  (Here I am thinking of my son if not held accountable.) 

    (I noted a real lack of balance between mercy & justice in the recent IMUS fuss.)

    A GREAT example of balancing justice & mercy would be the Jewish carpenter in several situations...like the woman who was going to be stoned, which people have heard me mention several times...

    by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 04:39:01 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Who did GodChoose??? (none / 0)
    Are The Jews of the Old Testament still God’s chosen people with the right to Palestine/ Israel? Or are Christians now God’s chosen people? (quote)

    I think it's great Jews are back in Israel, but I would not kick any other peaceful person out of there for them.

     What the Bible seems to say is that they will eventually come into possession, but it does NOT say Christians should "grab" Israel for them. It's possible some read read commands in the Bible where there might be no commands. 

    The book of Romans says (basically) that Christians (gentiles who also believe the Jewish Carpenter) are grafted onto the olive tree (representing Jews following God).  So Both together are chosen....Also, it notes that one's faith is important.  Abraham, the founder of the Jews, trusted God at key points....

    by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 04:45:40 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    just curious (none / 0)

    Vikingmother,

    I'd be curious to see what you think of that documentary that James Cameron did on the tomb that he theorizes may be the tomb of Jesus. 

    by bfaul on 05/29/2007 05:57:06 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Cameron's "jesus" tomb (none / 0)
    Site below has  objections to Cameron's claims. (I did not see the program but read about it.)
    http://www.garyhabermas.com /articles/The_Lost_Tomb_of_ Jesus/losttombofjesus_respo nse.htm

    by vikingmother on 05/29/2007 10:34:20 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Here is why I ask (none / 0)

    I notice that they demand a high level of proof for Cameron (as they should) but demand virtually no proof for the much more extaordinary claims that are made about Jesus and his legacy.  I have a big problem with this.

    I don't consider the bible as even ordinary proof, much less extaordinary, because it is strictly anecdotal.  Scientifically it is worthless because any facts in it can't be separated from fiction.  It may help to weakly corraborate other findings but that's about it.

    by bfaul on 05/30/2007 12:15:43 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Its a story and thats about it (none / 0)
    Even the anecdotal proof is totally suspect.  The Bible contradicts itself in many many places.

    --- Truth To Power

    by Leeberal on 05/30/2007 01:45:04 PM EST

    [ Parent ]
    Christians Help Me | 34 comments (34 topical, 0 hidden)
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