06/10/2007 10:34:30 AM EST

Jonathan Alter says: "Keep killing al Qaeda in Iraq!"

posted by KenTX

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During the second hour of the show on June 8, Ben and Cenk interviewed Jonathan Alter of Newsweek MSNBC. Here is an excerpt of Alter’s comments:

“I don’t want us to withdraw from Iraq completely. We’re going to have to stay in the region and bring in air strikes into al Anbar Province, where al Qaeda is holed-up, for a long time to come.”

“We’ve got good relations going with the Sunni Sheiks in al Anbar, and we’re going to need to continue killing the people who want to kill us. We can continue to fight terrorists in Iraq without permanent bases.”

“When liberals try to make the argument that we need to get our forces out of Iraq, it’s important for them to remember that al Qaeda is still there, inside of Iraq, and we need to continue to kill them, but we don’t need to do it from inside of Iraq.”

While I agree with most of what Alter said, I still think it’s difficult for U.S. military forces to kill al Qaeda in Iraq, when our military forces are not positioned inside of Iraq. (To be fair, I think he was referring to permanent bases.) 

So we need to kill al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

And we need to kill al Qaeda in Pakistan.

And we need to kill al Qaeda in Iraq.

OK now, show of hands. Do we have agreement from Cenk and Ben and Dave and bfaul and z1p101 and MRFred and Hubble and Mountain Man and Jesse that we’re going to stay in Iraq and keep on killing al Qaeda?

Hey Dave, if you don’t like the transcript I provided, why don’t you post a link to the interview, so everyone can hear for themselves what Alter said?
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Jonathan Alter says: "Keep killing al Qaeda in Iraq!" | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)
Educating bfaul and z1p101. (none / 0)
This thread is intended primarily for the benefit of bfaul and z1p101, two logic-impaired individuals who are desperately in need of some remedial training in deductive reasoning.

by KenTX on 06/10/2007 07:01:38 PM EST

Iraqi people are al Qaeda's new enemy (none / 0)
Read it, learn it, live it.

by KenTX on 06/10/2007 07:08:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Go down Moses... (none / 0)
I think I'll wait for the tablets...

"Freedom is important to Republicans as long as someone else pays for it on the battlefield and on April 15th."

by MRFred on 06/10/2007 08:00:13 PM EST

Here's my plan (none / 0)

I've always been more of a shit or get off the pot kind of guy. We've been doing allot of farting with very little results. That said, here's my plan to get rid of the scum and then get the hell out.

1. When a town is known to be harboring al Qaeda or generic terrorists, surround it with as much force as possible. Sections of Baghdad could be isolated the same way.

2. Drop leaflets and/or get on the radio, television and tell the citizens they have 24 (or less) hours to get out with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a suitcase with valuables.

3. Have checkpoints for everyone leaving.

4. Once all those with any common sense are out, level the town killing anyone left. Or send in squads to eradicate the leftovers and confiscate the weapons.

5. Pay each citizen that had the brains to get out and wasn't deemed to be a terrorist a reasonable amount of money to start over if the town was leveled.

6. Repeat as necessary until word gets around and things will change very quickly.

7. Finally, pack up and leave.

I know this is pretty radical but what the hell. I'm sick of us playing footsie with these assholes and many Iraqis aiding them. 

by MountainMan on 06/10/2007 08:44:45 PM EST

Mountain Man comes through again! (none / 0)
You are describing the methods of operation employed during the Battle of Falluja, where Marines used giant equipment to create instant roads running N/S and E/W, and they carved the city up into a grid pattern. Then they methodically turned each grid section into kill zones, one by one. The Marines grabbed Falluja by the throat and shook it violently, like a cat shakes a rat. Today, the city is a happy rat.

We are teaching the Iraqi Army to use these methods, because we want them doing the rat killing in the future. Consider it another successful franchise of Murder Incorporated.

The only way to defeat al Qaeda is to get our allies (Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan) to do the killing. Note that none of these countries were doing much to combat terrorism prior to 9/11/2001.

by KenTX on 06/10/2007 09:45:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm tired of the rhetoric (none / 0)

"We need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here."

Fine dammit! 

I say crank up the draft and have at it. I don't buy the too technical of a force crap. It doesn't take that much to train troops to man checkpoints and shoot people.

Sure, there are many specialties that require months of training but not defending yourself and following orders. 

Dragging this out makes me want to puke! The most powerful nation in the world and we can't control a piss ass place like Iraq! 

Just a little anger showing here. 

by MountainMan on 06/11/2007 10:05:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Mountain is right once again. (none / 0)
"Just a little anger showing here." 

You have every right to be angry. Six years is a long time for the most powerful military in the world to be fucking around with a bunch of sandal-wearing, bathrobe-wearing irreg ular guerrillas.

If KenTX was advising the Democrats, the party line would have nothin g to do with running away from Iraq. I would tell Democrats to start calling George Bush a weak, ineffective pussy for not being able to supress, vanquish, and otherwise pacify al Qaeda. Democrats should be telling the people that George Bush needs to step aside, and allow a real man to run the war on terror. Now that's an argument that will resonate.

Telling Americans that Democrats want to give up and pull all troops out of the Middle East is about the worst possible position to take.

by KenTX on 06/11/2007 10:41:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Dont worry... (none / 0)
Im sure you will on a different web site.

"Freedom is important to Republicans as long as someone else pays for it on the battlefield and on April 15th."

by MRFred on 06/11/2007 11:45:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Fallujah is a happy rat? (none / 0)
How do you judge the happiness of this particular rat?

by jarett on 06/12/2007 01:09:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Animal analogy = Animalogy (none / 0)
I don't think that came out the way he meant it.  If the Marines are like a cat and they shook the city like it was a rat, then I don't think said rat would be so happy.  In fact, it's probably quite dead.  The cat might be happy, though.  That means the Marines are like a happy cat and Fallujah is like a dead rat.  But Baghdad is like a depressed mule, Samawah is like a bi-polar monkey/eagle hybrid and the rest of Iraq is something more akin to a disgruntled manitee with a peacock's tail and razor-sharp fangs.

by OneHitKill on 06/12/2007 12:52:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Holes in your filter (none / 0)
  1. How do you determine whether or not the evacuees were terrorists?
  2. How do you deal with innocent people who don't want to leave their homes?

You're proposing a slightly, just slightly, more humane version of Sherman.

by jarett on 06/12/2007 01:05:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yahoo (none / 0)
I have officially made Ken's list of hippie peaceniks.

OK guys and girls, when do I get my official peace button and sandals? I promise have been working hard on my pony tail and I am so looking forward to all those granola discounts you guys already enjoy.

Thank you so much.

by z1p101 on 06/11/2007 07:45:50 AM EST

Men have feelings too. (none / 0)
"May I share mine with you?"
Mr Van Driessen

by KenTX on 06/11/2007 08:12:07 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Heh (none / 0)
Look at that. You do have a sence of humor. Who knew?

by z1p101 on 06/11/2007 08:27:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The "change of heart" among Sunnis (none / 0)

KenTX jumps up and down screaming Hurray! Hurray! the Sunnis are killing al Qaeda in Iraq!  Hurray!

I'd love it if they killed them all.  But our primary problem has to do with the Sunnis and the Shiites, NOT with al Qaeda.  How long are you going to go on about al Qaeda in Iraq before you realize this?  Al Qaeda is an opportunistic infection in Iraq.  It's just a bunch of foreign jihadists that are there because the opportunity to kill Americans is there.  When and if we "cure" that infection we still have the primary disease to deal with, which is the power struggle between Sunni and Shia.

Iraq will never be over until or unless a deal is struck between these two factions, which are still the sponsers of most of the civilian bombings and "sectarian" killings.  When you start hearing about political compromises between the two (and the Kurds) you will have some hope to hang your hat on.  Until then things won't change significantly.

Has it occurred to you that the Sunnis might be doing this because of the threat of an American draw-down?   Why do you suppose the idea of a withdrawal scares the Sunnis?  Why do you think the Militant Shiites WANT us out?  Do you think it's so that they can play nice?

by bfaul on 06/11/2007 11:01:20 AM EST

bfaul is about 90% correct (none / 0)
"Iraq will never be over until or unless a deal is struck between these two factions"

What do the Sunnis want?

1. No al Qaeda terrorists operating in their region.

2. Federalist autonomy, self-rule, and "states rights".

3. An equitable share in the oil wealth of Iraq.

4. Freedom from reprisal by the Shiite majority.

America should be openly focussed on helping the Sunnis achieve and maintain all four objectives.

Then the Sunnis would never want us to leave, because we are protecting them like Big Daddy.

The Kurds want American forces to stay forever.

by KenTX on 06/11/2007 10:48:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You forgot (none / 0)
5. Islamist-friendly Sunni theocracy.

by jarett on 06/12/2007 01:10:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Actually (none / 0)
Ken is 100% correct here.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Sunnis were very chummy with those al Qaeda types up untill recently. Must have been the scare of the US leaving and coming Shiite wave that changed their minds and look for US support. And of course I'm assuming you actually read your link to MM that explains that al Qaeda types tend to scurry when the heat is on which just leaves the local Sunnis to take the heat. Then of course there is the chlorine gas bombs that the al Qaeda types set off that sealed the deal with the US. Something tells me here that the Sunnis know who the al Qaeda types are and would get rid of them anyway or the Shiites would do it for them eventually.

Now wait, wait, stop let me guess the line Ken will pull from his Fallujah link. "Furthermore, al-Qaeda's foothold in Iraq had been seriously degraded,..."

Was I correct? Wow how did I know that?

Now, every estimate I have seen puts al Qaeda at best about 10% of our problem in Iraq and thanks to the Sunnis it's about to drop. Leaving us with at best 90% of the problem to deal with.

Which leads us back to Ken's question to bfaul.

"What do the Sunnis want?"

So I will offer the Shiite answer here and yes they are the majority. Also, please excuse my language.

"We (the Shiites) don't give a shit. We (the Shiites) run the show here. And those Sunni ass holes better get used to it."

Then of course there is the Kurdish answer.

"We (the Kurds) don't give a shit what happens to those Sunni ass holes eather".

This is our problem that is compounded by our promises to our allies who are the Saudis and Turkey about how this will all turn out.

The scope of this problem is a little bigger than fighting al Qaeda in Iraq. The 30,000 man surge is not going to fix it nor is the purple finger government of the green zone.

Please don't tell me that you have been dragging this red herring around for weeks and didn't think of any of these things.

And since I am obviously walking into your trap here, I would be very disappointed if this thread once again ends up sounding something like "you stupid liberal, Karl Rove knows what he is doing, you will loose and we will win, you'll see". Remember, I always man up if I'm wrong.

by z1p101 on 06/12/2007 02:00:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Make the Sunnis happy! (none / 0)
"And since I am obviously walking into your trap here"

Yep, it's another logic trap.

Are the Shiite friends with al Qaeda? No, because al Qaeda are Sunni terrorists.

Are the Kurds friends with al Qaeda? Of course not. What a ridiculous question.

Are the Sunni friends with al Qaeda? They used to be, until Petraeous figured out how to win them over with bribes and protection and additional promises.

The key to control of Iraq is unity between Sunnis and American forces. This can be maintained by doing whatever it takes to keep the Sunnis happy.

by KenTX on 06/12/2007 06:43:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
So (none / 0)
Why don't we just prop up a US friendly Saddam and be done already?

Currently the purple finger government is a Shiite government and al Qaeda is obviously no longer welcome. And it seems to me this Shiite government is going out of their way to make the Sunnis miserable.

Under the current plan, the Sunnis don't have "enough muscle" to make any difference. And I don't see how having our soldiers drive around in circles waiting to get blown up is helping anything.

by z1p101 on 06/12/2007 08:07:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
That's a good one (none / 0)

"Why don't we just prop up a US friendly Saddam and be done already?"

Yeah, that would be about fucking right, wouldn't it?

It won't happen though.  Not that I don't believe our fearless leaders are stupid enough to try it, but the Shiites would cut loose with everything they had to prevent it, and there's no way we could bring them under firm control again.  That ship has sailed.

by bfaul on 06/12/2007 10:22:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Wait a minute (none / 0)
I just read this again.

Are you saying that al Qaeda is the big problem in Iraq and once they are gone everything will be fine?

by z1p101 on 06/12/2007 09:00:58 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Who gives a shit? (none / 0)
Why do you bother?  The right wingers type the same shit over and over and over.. they have no new ideas.  They have no grasp on reality. Isn't it a waste of bandwidth responding?

1. Its the Dems fault. 
2. If we don't fight them there... they will come here
3. Al qaeda can somehow be defeated by a conventional army
4. Diplomacy? Whats that?


Blah blah blah

Its all horse shit  regurgitated over and over and over

They keep typing this insane shit and meanwhile reality moves beyond them .

--- Truth To Power

by Leeberal on 06/12/2007 02:48:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Tiny's "anti-liberal gotcha!" (none / 0)
There is nothing Tiny hates worse than when a leading liberal humiliates the entire Democrat Party with a common sense position.

He will soon be calling Jonathan Alter a "former Democrat", just like he calls Bob Kerrey.

by KenTX on 06/12/2007 03:11:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Nothing new here, move along... (none / 0)

"The key to control of Iraq is unity between Sunnis and American forces. This can be maintained by doing whatever it takes to keep the Sunnis happy."

I think this is a classic example of the thinking patterns demonstrated by the people who have been running this war strategically and politically for the last four years.  It supposes that things can be fixed by cooperation between Sunnis and Americans without taking into account what the Shiites will say and do.  It also supposes that the chief problem there has to do with our fight with al Qaeda, which is in reality a perverted sideshow.  Congratulations KenTX, you really do think like they do.

by bfaul on 06/12/2007 10:12:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
here comes the peanut gallery (none / 0)
"It also supposes that the chief problem there has to do with our fight with al Qaeda"

Please take another look at the comments from Jonathan Alter. He is clearly more intelligent than you on the subject, as evidenced from his journalism credentials, and your lack of credibility on any issue.

Thank You.

Have a nice day.

by KenTX on 06/12/2007 01:23:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Shiite Reaction (none / 0)
"It supposes that things can be fixed by cooperation between Sunnis and Americans without taking into account what the Shiites will say and do."

What the Shiites will say is that they are happy that al Qaeda and Baathists terrorists are no longer blowing them up with car bombs.

What the Shiites will do is gladly allow the formation of an autonamous Sunnistad, so they can be rid of the entire northwest quadrant of the country. 

by KenTX on 06/12/2007 01:37:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Sure they will... (none / 0)
Gladly huh?  Well I guess we'll see won't we?

by bfaul on 06/12/2007 05:09:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Jonathan Alter says: "Keep killing al Qaeda in Iraq!" | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)
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