Education Wars: Whole Word vs. Phonics

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How many would trade literacy

for "progressive" values?

The more I study the Reading Wars (i.e. how do we teach reading--phonics or Whole Word?), the more it appears to me that John Dewey and his followers were willing to trade literacy for new social structures. (For details, see "The War Against Reading" on Improve-Education.org)

 I wonder, if the choice were put this starkly, are there liberals who would say, Oh, that's horrible; there's no excuse for dumbing people down. Or would they say, Hey, you want an omelette, you have to break some eggs!

 This is an important debate, largely conducted behind the scenes. I think it's time to bring it out in the sunlight and let people argue. Not with me (I'm always in favor of smartening up) but in a more general way: what's best for the country?

 

 

 

 

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I have listened to this whole word vs phonics crap for years now as a professional teacher, and as usual, the debate is aimed at the wrong issue.

The problems in the schools now are a lack of adaptation to the culture and its technological progress, teaching to a damn test that has no real world value, and allowing stupid F(*%$ing people to breed more stupid F*&ing kids. Its as simple as that.

i'm sorry I didnt read your aforementioned article, Im sure its interesting, but Im too busy preparing lessons so retards can take a damn Bush Backed test.

Thanks

by bobo1 on 01/24/2008 08:28:54 PM EST


You sound like a really dedicated teacher.

by Grim Fandango on 01/24/2008 10:02:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I have many friends and a relative who are public school teachers. No child left behind is doing the exact opposite of what the name is claiming to do and they are all frustrated.

by z1p101 on 01/24/2008 10:24:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm fully aware of the pitfalls af no child left behind and I also know that teachers that refer to their students as little fucking retards need to be removed.

by Grim Fandango on 01/25/2008 01:28:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
After im removed, who are you going to find to babysit 35 of your 13 year olds in my classroom. Someone like you? Pollyanna? Big Bird?
 
Who really needs the clue here, man?

by bobo1 on 01/25/2008 08:08:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If you think "babysitting" is your mandate as a teacher I hope you leave soon as possible.

by Grim Fandango on 01/25/2008 02:14:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I have spent more years of dedicated service to try and help our youth in this country fighting odds that even the vegas bookies wouldn't offer. Before you start questioning ones dedication, perhaps you should examine what is going on in our schools and how much they pay schoolteachers in this country.

I love those f&^%ing little retards more than anyone, or I wouldnt try to navigate the paths of their discovery. Its the greedy, lazy ass politicians and these parents who dont give a shit about their kids and their education that bring the system down. This No Child Left Behind act is commonly referred to in the schools as the "No Childs Behind left standing" because it is so obvious to someone with any amount of brain activity that the law is DESIGNED to make public schools fail.

Yes Im frustrated. Yes I'm pissed...And the original poster was right in thinking that nobody talks about this. its not nice to talk about, but the truth hurts.

by bobo1 on 01/24/2008 10:52:58 PM EST

[ Parent ]
After you called the kids little fucking retards everything else you had to say was meaningless .

by Grim Fandango on 01/25/2008 01:26:15 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Coming from someone who looked into teaching after military retirement, and who then concluded "no fucking way," my hat is off to you for putting up with it at the lousy pay they offer for the "privilege."  ; So far as I'm concerned you can call them anything you like, you've earned the right.

And from personal experience my vote is "phonics."  ;-) 

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 01/25/2008 08:27:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
So you are saying that a teacher that calls your kids little fucking retards is someone that you trust to supply the best education they can get????

by Grim Fandango on 01/25/2008 02:17:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I can say I'd be surprised if some of their teachers hadn't called them even worse.  It's what goes into their heads when the term is over that matters.  Given the state of the system right now, any teacher who wasn't frustrated enough to resort to profanity might need to have their head examined.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 01/25/2008 03:13:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We need more teachers who train kids like Marine drill instructors. Teachers should be allowed to yell at the kids and berate them as much as necessary.

We are raising soft, lazy, undisciplined children, and it's all the result of liberal philosophy run amuck in the American education system.
square it away Marine!

by KenTX on 01/25/2008 04:33:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The endorsement of the resident right wing nut job is yet another reason that they should be removed.

by Grim Fandango on 01/25/2008 07:47:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"allowing stupid F(*%$ing people to breed more stupid F*&ing kids"

50% of all Americans have an IQ lower than 100.

The most important factors slowing the growth rate of stupid people are:
 
1. welfare-to-work programs
2. long prison sentences
3. abortions

by KenTX on 01/24/2008 11:24:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Way to show real class. What's the matter? Every one's prediction's coming true? The neo con dream is crumbling before your eyes?

Keep supporting Bush. The Democrats know a good thing when they have it. 

by z1p101 on 01/25/2008 12:53:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]

The main error here is assuming that one method or the other works best. It depends on the student. Students will learn how to read better when they use both methods. That way they will store the reading skills in more places in their brains.

Using phonics helps readers to figure out new words on their own, while whole word helps them to read faster.

Biggest problems in education is that most method plans are dreamed up in universities, administrative and gummint offices where people have no ongoing direct contact with children. A large number of education administrators got there because they couldn't hack teaching. It's much easier to sit in an office than teaching in a classroom.

The worst thing about NiCLBy is that it replaces learning time with "teach to the test" time. It was obviously designed to reduce the quality of education so that public schools could be replaced by vouchers for private schools and charter schools. A goal of conservatives is to make the general public more ignorant so they'll be more compliant. There can be no democracy without an educated population, so destroying public education will make them very happy. 

by zenie on 01/25/2008 08:59:43 AM EST


Good teachers work with individuals, and I understand how that is frustrated by teaching to the test which is what I think the original poster was trying to express.

On the other hand, if there is no test how do you know the results? Teachers are (mostly) trying to make it happen. 

by MayorHardin on 01/25/2008 12:27:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
What really matters is how much training each child has.  When I say "training" I mean attention.  If a parent reads to a child and emphasizes reading, both methods will work.  A child's brain is made to learn.  What method is less important than how much repetition and how much emphasis is placed on reading. 

A moderately low intelligence parent that TRYS and WORKS with a child will generally make more results than a brilliant non-involved parent.

How much you love your child and work with them matters.

I think this extends to teachers as well.  The more teachers are able to pay attention to individual students (ie teacher to student ratio), the better your results will be. 

The better the quality of the teacher (ie how much training and how much they are paid), the better the results.

These are proven facts.  Arguing over techiniques is mostly irrelevant.

by elingfam on 01/25/2008 02:14:35 PM EST


Only a generation ago, the pay gap between the average big city lawyer and teacher was less than $2,000 (you can guess what it is now).

That's not some magical answer to anything but it's interesting to think about. What the hell happened?

by ihavenobias on 01/25/2008 02:48:48 PM EST


Some of those lawyers became politicians.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 01/25/2008 03:14:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
that you have a source for this claim.

by MayorHardin on 01/25/2008 04:48:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
you aren't suggesting that I just make this stuff up? :)

Try reading the book The Trap: Selling Out to Stay Afloat in Winner-Take-All America .

by ihavenobias on 01/25/2008 06:02:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll check that book out. Didn't intend to disparage you, by the way. After all I was alive "a generation ago" and saw teacher pay scales at that time and my gut feeling is that equivalent attorneys did better than that. In my town there were 40 teachers and 4 attorneys. (Estimates, of course). I would bet that the 40 teachers did better in total than the 4 attorneys but on average?

A fun story, by the way. Just a few years ago at a friend's house I heard a discussion about what "the geeky attorneys" were doing at her husband's firm. Here I had been hanging with accountants and computer science guys for years and thought I had seen geekdom at its pinnacale, but by that time there were so many attorneys that there were apparently geeky subsets of them. It made me laugh.

by MayorHardin on 01/25/2008 07:20:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
and if I remember correctly, that particular fact related to big city teachers. 

PS---Yes, there are plenty of geeks to go around in just about every field!

by ihavenobias on 01/25/2008 08:13:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]

The main goal of a good education is to provide the tools and guidance so that students will know how to find the right answers on their own. The will learn how to identify and solve problems by themselves and in groups. They will have the tools and knowledge to become contributing members of society.

Each step of the way, students must be tested on their skills and knowledge. Rote memorization provides some tools. Reading and math problems provide others. Multiple-guess tests only test memorization. Essays and interactive solutions test other skills that are just as important.

As a teacher--I've taught art, science, natural history--I told my students how almost everything is related to everything else. Art teachers are more likely to have students who complain about other subjects. They don't like Math or English or Science, they want to be artists, but artists use computers and often write some of their own scripts/code; artists must be able to express themselves verbally or in writing in order to sell themselves and their work; artists especially must understand chemistry because many of the materials they use are toxic and/or flammable. What about History? Progress in art is based on thousands of years of art history.

Few things in education are either/or. The more tools and information students have, can find, know how to use, the more complete their education becomes. This is the reason why No Child's Behind Left is a failure.

by zenie on 01/27/2008 07:47:53 PM EST


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