Jim Caviezel and HIS ILK!

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OK, I'm just messing around.  In fact, the point of this post is to not only support Cenk's outreaching comments towards folks on "the other side" who think things like abortion and stem cell research are wrong, but also to attempt to shed some light on how equally good people can be so contradictory in their moral conclusions.

If you missed what he said, it was basically a call to us (on all sides) to understand that (by and large) people of a different viewpoint are not hateful individuals "out to get you" or to evilly strip you of your rights for their own gain.

The point here is that most people react on these issues from a moral viewpoint.  They genuinely want what they believe is the best for everyone in society and just see things from a different moral viewpoint.

What Cenk doesn't talk about is how the mechanism works within each human being that makes his observations so dead-on.  What could go on inside of the heads of two people, who are both loving, caring, giving and tolerant, to have totally divergent ideas about something like abortion?

I don't claim to have the answers.  I don't think anyone yet has close to a rigorous theory of mind that would account for it.  But it seems clear that Harvard Professor of Cognitive Science, Steven Pinker, is on the right track and certainly identifies some major points for further research and study.

Pinker got my attention (and a whole lot of other people's) when he published The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature, back in 2002.  Most recently he wrote The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window into Human Nature (2007). 

At the time The Blank Slate came out, Publishers Weekly said this about it - "Drawing on decades of research in the 'sciences of human nature,' Pinker, a chaired professor of psychology at MIT, attacks the notion that an infant's mind is a blank slate, arguing instead that human beings have an inherited universal structure shaped by the demands made upon the species for survival, albeit with plenty of room for cultural and individual variation."

Perhaps needless to assert - I completely buy into the direction of Pinker's studies and conclusions.  You may not.  You may even think you have ethical concerns for not accepting this sort of a world-view.  But I'm a decent guy!  And I certainly assume that whoever is here at The Young Turks, reading this, is also a fundamentally good human being.  But how can we both be "decent" if we are in diametric opposition on a matter of ethics?

I'm going to start by strongly recommending an article by Pinker that appeared in The New York Times just a couple of weeks ago entitled The Moral InstinctDoing so will greatly illuminate my following comments.  It's a rather long article, but I feel certain that anyone who takes the time to read it will (a) get the opportunity to see what a brilliant mind Pinker possesses and (b) gain valuable insights into the reasons for moral differences between equally fine people.  I'll tell you what - go read it and then come back.  I'll wait right here.

You are a fast reader.  It took me a lot longer!

I'm sure you read the entire article, but I'm going to ask you to review this short two paragraph excerpt:

"When anthropologists like Richard Shweder and Alan Fiske survey moral concerns across the globe, they find that a few themes keep popping up from amid the diversity. People everywhere, at least in some circumstances and with certain other folks in mind, think it’s bad to harm others and good to help them. They have a sense of fairness: that one should reciprocate favors, reward benefactors and punish cheaters. They value loyalty to a group, sharing and solidarity among its members and conformity to its norms. They believe that it is right to defer to legitimate authorities and to respect people with high status. And they exalt purity, cleanliness and sanctity while loathing defilement, contamination and carnality.

"The exact number of themes depends on whether you’re a lumper or a splitter, but Haidt counts five — harm, fairness, community (or group loyalty), authority and purity — and suggests that they are the primary colors of our moral sense. Not only do they keep reappearing in cross-cultural surveys, but each one tugs on the moral intuitions of people in our own culture."

If we take this to be correct - that there are five "primary colors" of our moral inclinations (in no order of greater or lesser importance), "harm" (as in "do no..."), "fairness", "group loyalty" (also called "community"), "authority" and "purity" - then let's see how these can play out across cultures and even between individuals within a culture.

Now recall that research shows that virtually everyone has these "primary colors of morality" and that everyone has all of the colors in his or her toolkit.  None of us (save those handicapped by a disease or disorder, such as pyschopathy or brain damage) are lacking a single "color".  Then why wouldn't rational beings tend to congregate at near-identical conclusions about  the moral imperative in any given situation?

Let's think first about two distinct cultures - and I'll use Southeast Asian and Western European.  It's very likely, as Pinker shows us, that different cultures would have distinct "colors" that are more heavily emphasized than others.  We might expect that in Southeast Asia, the moral values of "authority" and "purity" are given higher moral imperative.  For the Western European cultural community, we might see "harm" and "fairness" as more heavily expressed moral features, while each may treat "group loyalty" approximately the same. 

Within cultures you will have this same sort of dichotomy based on politics, religions, race, ethnicities, etc.  One group may most heavily weigh "group loyalty", another "purity" and yet a third group views "harm" as the highest moral consideration (and so on).

Remember that we are not talking about mutually exclusive concerns.  Each will have moral diligence regarding all five of the "primary colors of morality".  It's just that the more important ones (for them) will tilt the scales in their moral reasoning on each issue they confront.

If a human being happens to have a brain that puts its highest moral importance on, first, “authority” which she personally gets from reading a bible and then “harm” which she interprets the bible as indicating that abortion causes, then this is where her emphasis on the issue will reside and one can at least understand the basis for her moral decision about abortion. 

This is not to say that all belief systems are equally valid or that a so-called “holy book” is a legitimate source of authority.  Indeed, as an atheist, I suggest that she has engaged in a flawed use of reasoning and I reject the framework that she is attempting to patch rationality on to.  Still, that doesn’t mean that she is in any way acting out of an ulterior motive of “getting us”.  To the contrary, as Cenk pointed out, we are dealing with human beings striving to live morally.  Once those of us who attempt to use reason as a major tool in our day to day method of interacting with our environment understand this, we will then be better positioned to deal with irrational belief systems. 

That is an entirely different subject.
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the research seems to be the most unremarkable i've really ever been exposed to.  (aside from that which the government sometimes does where they spend 5 million dollars to find out that people like cheetos but not orange fingers)  Wow! what a shock, it is both nature and nurture that makes us who we are.  Perhaps that is an overdistillation of the details but it is the gist of it.

as for one side out for "getting us": lets not forget that there is one side who constantly wants to control people's lives by invoking their wacked out rligious views and insisting that their one true god's law must be obeyed.  so in essence thos who would place "authority" highest on their list both want to be controlled (or at least are willing to be) and want their authority model to control others.  that seems to me to a pretty big out to get us.

by nfc on 01/30/2008 01:34:49 AM EST


Neither of these topics lend themselves to black and white viewpoints, in my opinion. Stem cell research and abortion are both very near center in the medium gray band. It's not difficult to relate to and even take the other side's viewpoint as one would in a debating class.

I'm on the liberal pro choice and pro stem cell research sides of the arguments and can't foresee any new information coming available that would swing me to the other side. But I also wouldn't say that it couldn't happen.

On the other hand, it could be that these issues will never be resolved and will always trouble our ethics.

by toosinbeymen on 01/30/2008 07:29:24 AM EST


A change of heart would require *fact* based evidence for us (well, for me for sure), right? 

Well there is no *fact* based evidence that suggets there is a reason not to do stem cell research.  The only thing that could happen is that we dicover it doesn't work and or could cause some other, tangible problems.

PS---I can make (and have made) a great argument that people who are pro Iraq war and anti (zygotic) stem cell research are being entirely hypocritical to an absurd degree.  Notice I didn't bring up abortion, I'm just focusing on stem cell research in particular.

by ihavenobias on 01/30/2008 11:09:42 AM EST

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When I think of Zygotes I don't read into them anything magical or sacred, and that is a big difference between me and a religious person.  A zygote is a reproductive cell with a complete set of genes, nothing more.  It's got the full set of instructions that govern it's division so that it differentiates into a complete human being, given the time and the resources supplied by the mother.  I no more think of a zygote as a human than an acorn as an oak tree.  In nature zygotes are usually broadcast wholesale by the parent plant or animal in the hopes that one will take off and grow.  It's evolved in female mammals so that the the energy is directed toward the nurturing and protection of just a few zygotes, through internal fertilization, rather than the shotgun approach used by animals that reproduce externally.  Note that the shotgun approach is still used by the human male, who averages between 200 and 400 million sperm in an ejaculation.  So if you get all misty eyed about reproductive cells, each time a guy gets his rocks off it's the holocaust times five.

This believe that a sky-god "breathes life" into a zygote is an ancient fairytale left over from the bronze age.  The mechanics of how this all happens is now well on its way to being understood.  A zygote has a hell of a lot of work to do and resources to borrow before it becomes a viable life-form.  As far as I'm concerned it owes it's continued existence to the person in whose body it resides, and no one else. 

In my mind the value of a zygote has precisely and exactly whatever value the mother places on it.  If she doesn't care about it I admit to not giving a damn about it either.  If she wants to harvest a hundred of her reproductive cells and use them to save an existing child I am one hundred percent behind her.  If she values a newly fertilized egg and someone deliberately causes her to lose a pregnancy I think they should be prosecuted and thrown in jail.

by bfaul on 01/30/2008 12:09:39 PM EST

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Open up a basic biology/physiology health and go to the section on reproduction.  I understand why the Right would want to frame it as "embryo" because it sounds more human somehow while "zygote" sounds alien.

But how did scientists and the MSM get duped into making "embryonic stem cell research" the phrase to use to describe research on what should technically be considered zygotes?  And why don't we ever hear about this?

It might sound stupid but people ARE swayed by things like this.  I bet you anything that the support for zygotic stem cell research would be 5-10% than the current support for so called "embryonic stem cell" research.

by ihavenobias on 01/30/2008 12:48:39 PM EST

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"It might sound stupid but people ARE swayed by things like this."

No, not stupid at all, that's a fact. Technically though stem cells are actually harvested from "blastocysts", which are zygotes that have undergone about 2 days worth of cellular division. They typically consist of a cluster of about 100 cells, or so I've read. Try "blastocystic stem cell research" on for size. That will have them shaking their heads and walking away.

What bugs me is that we're in the 21st century, we know about DNA and it's constructs, and most people are still thinking in terms of magic when it comes to biology. 

by bfaul on 01/30/2008 01:13:27 PM EST

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is actually about 150.  To put a little perspective to it, a fully matured fetus has billions.  It's been said that when you scratch the top of your nose you are harvesting more human cells than there are in a zygote.

It's another day in paradise...

by happyhominid on 01/30/2008 02:34:19 PM EST

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A zygote is the single cell that results from the joining of sperm and ovum.  You're referring to a "blastocyst".&nbs p; I remember this from zoology, but I double-checked to be sure I was remembering correctly.

by bfaul on 01/30/2008 04:02:36 PM EST

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and I apologize.  You're right.

It's another day in paradise...

by happyhominid on 01/30/2008 06:02:30 PM EST

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as long as we all agree that it's not an embryo.  Zygotes, blastocysts...both sound far less human than "embryo".

Zygote just sounds alien or animalistic and blastocyst sounds sci-fi...actually, now that I think about it, they both sound kind of sci-fi.

by ihavenobias on 01/30/2008 06:10:01 PM EST

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And it mirrors my position perfectly.  The science on zygotes (like evolution) is in.  We can now sway people who base much of their moral reasoning on the "authority" of god.  Not all of them though.  If their position is that their biblical texts are the inerrant word of a sky-daddy then we have to brush past them. 

It's another day in paradise...

by happyhominid on 01/30/2008 02:30:08 PM EST

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He is part of the wackiest wacko crowd here.

by jarett on 01/30/2008 09:57:23 AM EST


How has nobody made a touchdown jesus joke about the guy who actually played jesus yet?

by Spencer on 01/30/2008 09:28:47 PM EST

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...for understanding how groups of people relate to each other.  It may even indicate that more interpersonal respect would be useful when dealing with purely moral disputes.

But if some idiot tells me I should bend over for an authority that wants to invade my privacy and torture people or discriminate against them because of how they were born because to do otherwise would weaken our community, I'll show him just how much I can weaken both that authority and the community which supports it.  I don't owe that authority or that community any loyalty which does not show loyalty to me or to its diverse members.  (I believe that covers all five of those colors.)

Every moral dispute is subject to logic, and it's the competition among those moral values that is the dispute on our battlefiel d.  Usually we can resolve these issues by simple appeals to empathy, but today we find a lot of people high up in the power structure who seem to lack the ability to empathize.  I'll concede that that is a condition with which those people might have been born.  In dealing with those people, logic is the only tool for resolving these questions -- unless you want to start killing people.  I'm not going to start being more empathetic to people who insist that their ignorance of facts should be respected because they're basically good people, even if they might be too lazy to read a book.

The case against torture, for instance, doesn't have to be based solely on the ability to empathize with others.  I can also be based on the fact that you usually get the opposite of what you want, making torture counterproductive and a really stupid idea.

And the case against discrimination based on race or sexual orientation doesn't have to be based on the ability to empathize.  It can also be based on the fact that if you don't learn to live and let live then a lot of others are going to not want you to live, making such discrimination counterproductive and a really stupid idea.

And the case against closing down our borders and ejecting millions of people doesn't have to be based on the ability to empathize.  It can also be based on the fact that it would cost us hundreds of billions of dollars not only in lost revenue but also for the task itself, making such a policy counterproducti ve and a really stupid idea.

And -- to show a completely different example -- the case against another tax cut for anyone at all doesn't have to be based on concern for the community.  It can be based on the fact that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch and that you've got to pay for the services you receive or you will end up losing those services or paying someone else a higher price to provide them, and investing in our country by spending the money to actually do things would create returns many times the size of such proposed tax cuts, making them counterproductive and a really stupid idea.  (This one is especially galling)
 
Sure, I'll concede that not all taxes are good -- but logic and facts are available for those cases, too.

Those are the easy examples, but I could go on and on about every Republican favorite.

I get pissed off most when people avoid knowledge and logic in favor of emotionalism on issues for which knowledge and logic are available.

A dear friend for whom I usually have enormous respect called me up yesterday to say that she just doesn't believe in "this global warming thing" because you just can't trust what "they" will do and it will waste a lot of money for nothing.  I told her I was disappointed in her because she has a strong mind and normally will examine the facts -- and there are lots of them available -- and apply logic, like the logic that if she's wrong then we are total toast and what's the harm in making the planet cleaner?  That it would create too many new jobs?

She knew I was pissed although I tried to tone it down a lot, but I'll bet a hundred dollars she's extending her research today.  Sure, I'm going to have to give her a toy for her dogs and also probably a box of chocolates.

But KenTX and acroso better not get the idea that any such presents will be coming their way.

by Juarez Traveller on 01/30/2008 10:53:40 AM EST


A dear friend for whom I usually have enormous respect called me up yesterday to say that she just doesn't believe in "this global warming thing"

As though physics, meteorology, chemistry and geology were subjects that require "belief".  I know exactly what you mean, I've tried to explain to people that it isn't like the rapture, believers and nonbelievers will all suffer alike, and inaction is far more likely to be more costly in the long run than any action we attempt.  Besides, we're going to run out of oil and coal anyway, so we'd damn well better do something.

If you want to get KenTX or Acroso something my dog will be happy to provide the chocolates. 

by bfaul on 01/30/2008 01:26:21 PM EST

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