Jayar's a bit off

Email Print posted by prezalex 01/30/2008 10:03:09 PM EST

Google Technorati del.icio.us digg reddit
If you like this story, digg it!

If you believe in political correctness, or that black people are stamping on your First Amendment rights by calling you or anyone else a racist, you probably won't like this post. If you like Who Shot Jayar Jackson, you won't like this post and will probably think me some sort of whiny leftist bitch. Meh. Here goes.

During the Dog the Bounty Hunter story (I too wish he had been caught by Mexican bounty hunters, and I wish those bounty hunters were on a TV show) Jayar stated that he thought people giving context for racist statements would make such statements okay or forgivable. That to me shows a lack of understanding for the issue of which one speaks and/or a gross naivete that even bleeding-heart liberals like me do not possess.

Taking the Kelly Tighlmann "lynch in a back alley" comment for example, it's difficult to accept that someone with any understanding of American history would joke about lynching an athlete of African ancestry, and that that would have some other context than the racial one that it easily fit. It's more likely that it's a comment rooted in racist thoughts in her own mind than being a silly joke that we simpletons put a racial context to. It's either that she slipped up and let her own racist thoughts out (A) or she unknowingly used racist imagery to describe a multiracial athlete. (B)

If (A), then Jayar's solution is insulting, not some grand "let's get over race" compromise. He would have racists tell those offended and denigrated by their racism something untrue -- that they weren't being racist even when knowingly spouting racist imagery and/or ideology. That spits in the eye of the offended to appease the offensive, and is a disgusting sort of solution to the issues surrounding race relations in America.

If (B), then the idea of explaining a context for the comment is still dishonest unless the offending party explains that they were ignorant of the offense, which still may mean that (A) may be true, lending less credence to Jayar's strategy. This option also leads to the argument that Ms. Tighlmann should take some time off from The Golf Channel if she doesn't know that lynching and black people haven't had the best of relationships in America. (to say the least)

This isn't just because it's offensive in a racial context; that's intellectually offensive to someone like me who, oh I don't know, passed high school history. That should require she take some time off and read a few textbooks lest she make a mistake and compares a close Skins game to the Battle of "Yeti's Burg" or something else stupid and ignorant. Having dumbshit announcers is not cute, it's annoying and so maybe it's right to educate their asses a bit.

All in all, Jayar is right that people should be honest, but he falls short of a productive solution on issues pertaining to race in America when he absolves people of their guilt for making prejudiced statements. I do not subscribe to such a philosophy and so I think he's wrong.

< POLL: Does anyone in America doubt that Bill Clinton is a sexual predator? | Clinton sells out for delegates >
 Display:
Jayar's a bit off | 42 comments (42 topical, 0 hidden)
must...not...but...can't...uh...resist.......... (none / 0)
What're you, some sort of whiny leftist bitch?










...........I'm so weak sometimes..........

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 12:44:39 AM EST

Damn! (none / 0)
You got me...:D

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 01:18:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Hilarious (none / 0)
Let's just assume that every comment Tim makes is hilarious.  I'm getting tired of typing it, but I feel like he still  deserves the recognition.  WOOT WOOT!

by Spencer on 01/31/2008 03:52:42 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I dunno. (none / 0)
I suppose it depends on the context in which the statement was made.

First of all, what, exactly is a "racist" statement?

If I point out that blacks seem to be better basketball players possibly because of something genetic and/or because more black kids grow up dribbling basketballs, am I a "racist" simply because I might be wrong?  To tell you the truth, I don't know if the statement is true or false although I suspect there is some truth to it.  But does describing a  potential difference in the races constitute racism?  Is it racist to market products exclusively for blacks?

Of course, those examples are entirely different from the historical and still typical usage of some particular words.  "Nigger" originally was a term of derisiveness invented by whites.  But even though the word has several other meanings today, many people regardless of their color are uncomfortable when whites use the word for any purpose.

Blacks may or may not have been lynched more often than whites throughout our history, but in the last century I'm willing to bet that the victims of lynchings were far more often black.  And when we imagine a lynching it's likely to be a black man whom we imagine to be hanging from the tree.  However, I have heard the word used jokingly to refer to how a white person should be treated.

There are other questions of note:  Do younger people today, who have no experience with the racism which I witnessed when I was younger, who really don't care what race a person is, and who really wish no ill will upon people of other races, understand much of the context of this discussion?  If a person who was born within the last 20 years or so talks about lynching someone who is black, should we assume that person is a bigot, or just pissed?  How about simply a jerk?

Can someone wish for something bad to happen to a person of another race and not be racist?

It all depends on the context.  I think the issue is more complicated today than it was a couple of decades ago.  It seemed safer years ago to judge a person who made such statements as racist and to treat them with disdain.  But today I'm not so sure.  There are some general differences among the races, and pointing them out is not necessarily harmful or intended to cause harm to anyone.  And the meanings of many words have changed as their historical roots recede in time.

If I'm in with a group of whites and someone uses the word "nigger" to refer to another person, I'll assume the worst and call him an asshole, even if he really doesn't understand the historical context of the word.  But if that person is younger, I can't assume she or he is a racist.  He or she might simply be trying to think of the most hurtful word-weapon possible to use against another particular person, with no intent or desire to demean all black people.

It's complicated.  All I know is that the proportion of simple jerks to racists whom I meet today is far and away larger than it was back in the 60's, and that the world is a better place for it.  Sure, there are still a lot of racists out there.  Tancredo, for instance, for sure.  But since I've surrounded myself with people of many ethnic backgrounds who r eally don't give a damn about race other than to view cultural differences as interesting and occasionally problematic, perhaps I'm not able to see the current extent of the problem.

You tell me.

by Juarez Traveller on 01/31/2008 01:23:28 AM EST

Hmm... (none / 0)

Racism to me? It's a definition I have yet to finalize, as I am no sociologist, but I like parts of Prof. David Wellman's definition (first saw it on Wikipedia under racism entry) that racism is an ever-growing set of culturally sanctioned strategies and beliefs that, with or without intent, reinforce a system deferential to white supremacy and privilege. That said, I personally believe that prejudice against any race cripple the anti-supremacy movement and is thusly racist under that definition as well. Does that make sense?

With the idea that one does not have to intend to be racist to be racist, we should be able to take it easy when people call us racist. When I say something's racist, at least, I do not say it to be censorious, I say it to be accurate. 

I do believe context is important, such as the Tighlmann comments I mentioned. Over 4000 Americans of African descent have been lynched sine 1882 in this country as noted by the Tuskegee Institute, and so to joke about that when referring to an athlete who is part black shows an amazing ignorance but it also, knowingly or not, supports the system of white supremacy like jokes about a "nigger barbecue" used to, or like how calling Hillary the "bitch" supports male supremacy.

To me it's clear that the comment is racist, though I know that doesn't mean Kelly Tighlmann is EVIL, but just inhabits many of the thoughts and feelings most every American has. It's a long-standing system that has been extremely effective in forming the framework for policy (from no rights for people of color in Constitution at outset TO today's War on Brown People---I mean War on Terror) and society (from Stephin Fetchit to Norbit, from the KKK-enforced racial separation to today's colorblindness) and as such it's a bit of a fantasy for me or anyone to say we're not racist, that we can't internalized this hate and evil that has been injected into the very country we live in.

That's why the argument over context doesn't work with me, because the overarching context is that we live in a society set up to be unequal among the races, sexes, classes, orientations, etc. It's sort of like a corporation screwing its workers, but apologizing for it. Maybe they didn't intend to, but they did and the system encourages it.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 01:41:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Sorry, not buying it. (none / 0)
Until you posted that statistic about the 4000 lynchings in America I had no idea it was that prevalent.  I'd be willing to bet good money she didn't either, when she said it.  Things like that are so inconsequential (except in contexts like this where it becomes a topic) that it doesn't show up on the radar scope.  I'm with the other posters here: when I hear "lynching" I think westerns, not black people.

The mother of a friend of mine, sweet little old lady, ran into some of this mess a few years back.  She had some furniture delivered, and asked "you boys" to deposit it in the desired spot.  They happened to be black, and one of them filed a complaint against her for making a racist remark.  He felt bad about doing it, so badly he told her about it and why he had no choice.  Their employer made it mandatory to report anything on a provided list of "offenses."  Since the delivery was for work office furniture, and she was a nurse for a state agency, it turned into a big, ugly nasty mess that did no one any good at all.  I know this lady, and asking "you boys" to do anything is exactly how she'd phrase it--and did--were it me and my friend she were addressing.  That's her term for younger males in groups.

Now, tell me she should somehow have been primed to expect a racially-charged atmosphere simply because some young black men were in the room, and have to curb her normal manner of speech accordingly.  It couldn't have been further from her mind, nor should she have had to worry about it.  The very idea she should be on proverbial pins and needles over the race of people in the room? THAT is racist.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 02:02:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Before I get ripped for it ... (none / 0)
I admit "inconsequential" was a bad choice.  There's nothing inconsequential about 4000, 400, 4 or even one black person being lynched for any reason.

So what was I clumsily trying to say?

Analogy time.  About half of my in-laws are Jewish; several of the oldest among them still bear concentration camp tattoos.  You want to talk about a horrific historical crime that affected a lot of people with whom I have a fairly direct connection?  There you are.  Yet, even so, I bet whole months go by where not even once does a thought of the Holocaust cross my mind, nor would it occur to me to alter my daily routine or mannerisms in any way because of it.  Would I make a joke involving ovens or showers that had them in in it?  No, I would know better, but I have a real connection to inhibit me.  There's no such connection in my life to those 4000 murdered black people, and there's no hard-wired inhibition connected to the crimes to cause me to think of them when the word "lynch" comes up.  

If I were to research the life of the sports commentator I bet I wouldn't find one there, either--just guessing, but a whitebread upper-middle-class upbringing in some nice suburb is where I'd place my bets.  There's no reason for her to have made that connection; there just isn't.  It's not something that's going to be on the forefront of most American's minds.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 02:22:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
That's true (none / 0)

But, I guess in my mind, when thinking about racism and what is racist and what isn't, it's about what people do and say, and calling something racist does not shut people up, it doesn't end discussion, it's a descriptively accurate term. I know people don't like being called a racist, but they didn't like it in the 50s and 60s either, I bet. I bet no one ever wants to be criticized but sometimes you have to.

The "inconsequential" thing is a great example. You saw the possible context of your comment and corrected it quickly and adroitly. There's nothing wrong with that. That isn't political correctness, that's called anti-racism.

The hope is that, just as you already know not to make Holocaust jokes, as I hope all of us do, when you and I and others make even unintentionally racist comments that we don't sweep them under the rug or try to spin the damage of them by saying we meant something else, that we take responsibility and start to make those connections that help us understand why certain jokes are not only offensive but they help make a culture that we do not want or like.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 02:36:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Okay, I can agree with that. (none / 0)
Where I'm seeing bombs going off in my face, you're seeing opportunity for opening a dialog and expanding someone's perspective.  If done in a non-confrontational manner I can completely support that view.

Self-examination time.  Why do I see bombs?  I shared some of my early life somewhere on this topic.  What I didn't share was what friction I did encounter growing up was generally very unpleasant and often violent.  Add experiences like my friend's mother and how she was in very real danger of losing her job.  I have a real backlash in my soul about that sort of thing, so it's hard to visualize a racially-based misunderstanding that doesn't get ugly.  I'll have to work on that.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 02:45:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Plz remember (none / 0)
I'm still just spouting my own views, so I feel the need to make sure it's understood that I'm not perfect or an expert, just a person who feels the discourse on race in this country often has its head in the sand. But, let me say I'm sorry that your family friend went through such an unproductive and unnecessary hassle.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 02:58:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
S'okay. (none / 0)
My own beliefs are largely intact, but I'm seeing an alternate way of viewing it and it's one I'd not yet considered.  Learning something new is always useful and, within the context we've met up in, I agree with you.

I still think it can sometimes be unrealistic to expect the result of such a situation not to get tense, but if everybody keeps their head and hangs onto mutual respect...win-win.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 03:03:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
This is what is frustrating about the whole topic. (none / 0)

If the commentator was thinking about a western movie scene when she inadvertently, apparently, used the word "lynch", then there was absolutely nothing "racist" about her comment and she had no reason to apologize for it.  In fact, to demand an apology in that circumstance would be wrong.  In fact, to assume that she had a racially discriminatory intent is wrong (i.e., a morally bad thing to do).

Prof. Wellman's definition of racism describes an explicit intent to cause harm.  If we accept that definition -- and I'm willing to only if the implicit statement that racism is limited to discrimination in favor of whites is removed -- I am convinced that any behavior that lacks that the intent to cause harm or to discriminate in favor of another race must not be judged as racist.  The word has all sorts of conotations, all of which are negative.  To judge someone as racist exposes them to lots of social punishments.

If I point out that people descended of former African slaves generally have darker skin than people descended of northern Europeans, I am definitely defining a discriminatory classification.  But does it imply superiority of one race over the other?

Yes.  People with darker skin are generally better able to withstand longer periods in the sun without suffering damage to their skin.

If you call that a "racist" remark, then the word has no useful meaning whatsoever.

by Juarez Traveller on 02/01/2008 12:18:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Almost complete disagreement (none / 0)

1) The way I think about racism isn't solely defined by Prof. Wellman, my perspective and experience teaches me succinctly that many of the most egregious racists of my young generation will tell you to your face that they have only the most benign of intentions. I don't believe saying someone didn't INTEND to be racist makes any difference in whether or not what they did or said was racist. Racism to me is about actions and statements just as it is about beliefs.

2) When I call someone racist, it's more or less saying they're aiding and abetting white supremacy. I can't see how that's not true. I can't see how even if it's black on Latino prejudice and racism, or Native American against Asian, I don't see how that's not to the benefit of white supremacy and privilege.

Now about Tighlmann, remember, I didn't assume she had a white supremacist intent, I assumed that she either knew the racial context around the word "lynch" or she didn't. Read it again. If she did have that knowledge then it meant to me that she said a comment that she knew, somewhere in her mind, would be seen as clear-cut racism.

That can imply either racist intent or ignorance, but that doesn't erase the racism of the COMMENT itself.

It's not a huge stone in the castle of racism but each one we as people can take out is, I think, more worthwhile than protecting the social privileges of whites who use racist imagery and commentary and commit racist actions under benign guises.

3) I can only guess at how devastating it is to be told you're racist if one is white as opposed to black but from my knowledge of social punishments, there are quite a few still active that I and my family have experienced just for being in a racist America, in areas ranging from education to occupation, from dining to political representation. Social punishments for calling someone out as a racist can be numerous as well.

I wonder if any of the punishments for being a racist, or being called a racist cannot be said to be meted out to those who handed out the racism charge.

I wonder if such punishments are continually meted out to those in groups that are not so privileged by racism and white supremacy, groups where it's okay to joke about lynching them, or groups that are safe be called illegal, or groups that can jokingly be said not to even exist, just to name a few. When I think about how bad it can be for people called racists, I usually tread differently in different situations, but I don't think it's right to neglect to call things that are racist in and of themselves as such on a regular basis. That's enabling of racism, simply put, and I think that's worse than saying to someone that what they said was in fact racist.

4) Your view of racism, IMO, is too forgiving. It to my mind is one big loophole, where even the most heinous acts of white supremacy that we can remember could be explained away with some sort of ulterior motive, and I don't buy that. It's as though any word or phrase known to be linked historically with a strongly racist context should be explained away because it's been given another meaning as well, so it can NEVER be racist again, even if it's used against the racial group it used to be used against, it still cannot ever be racist again, and that to me is not right.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 02/01/2008 12:39:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You should be careful about your assumptions (none / 0)
Look, I'm not saying that racism isn't a problem and that it won't take a lot of work to wipe it out.  Personally, I think racism is a mental disease that requires treatment, although the APA appears to disagree with me.  The brutality of racism exists in our country today and is plain for all to see.

There are many who would think that I am too harsh in my criticism of racists. Some people are afraid of what they perceive to be ugly social scenes when I criticize someone who has made an obviously racist remark.  But there are many who will not think that it was I who caused the scene but that it was, instead, the idiot who thought that talking about "those stupid niggers" was a good idea actually caused the scene.

But if you assume that someone had a racially harmful intent when they use a particular word, then you open yourself up to making a potentially harmful mistake.  This would make me wonder if you are unjustly discriminating based on race.  If someone wasn't even thinking about race when they use a word which to you has a racist meaning, then perhaps you should reconsider the meaning of the word rather than insist that someone else do the changing.  Believe me: the word isn't going to go away.  I want that elderly matron who refers to all young men as "boys" regardless of their race to stay exactly the way she is.  I like her.

And to say that only whites benefit from racism is completely foolish.  First of all, racism is destructive to any community that hosts it.  To me, it's a clear case that no one benefits.  Simple economics can prove that case.  Second, I know some leaders of several non-white ethnicities who make their livings by promoting racial discrimination.

If you call me a racist because I'm white then that ends our friendly conversation.  I would know that I'm talking to a racist.  If you ignore the racial discrimination and <fill-in-color- here> supremecy or separatist movements that exists in some <fill-in-color-here> communities and focus entirely on the white community, then I know that I don't have a partner with whom I can work.  And if you insist that whites are the only people who must change their attitudes and behavior in order to rid the world of racism, then you have given us reason to believe that you are a racist.

Now, I'm not saying that you have those attitudes.  I prefer to believe that those are ideas which you do not wish to promote.  However, I believe that you do discriminate on the basis of race when it is not necessary.

Sure, it's necessary to make some discriminations, such as well selling products which will benefit people of a particular race more than it will others, or when targeting advertising at a community that is composed largely of one race.  I also believe that the solutions to some of societies inequities  must, for a time, be discriminatory on the basis of race for those races which have suffered from debilitating discrimination.  (Of course, we would have to change our Constitution in order to allow such policies, and that isn't likely to happen.  There are both good and bad sides to that.)

But when in discussions of racism you focus entirely on white supremacy and ignore the obvious problem of racism and the self-inflicted damage it causes in other ethnic communities, then I think you make the task of solving the problem more difficult.

My goal is to eliminate the harmful effects of racial discrimination from our society.  I don't believe that we ever will eliminate all racists from our midst, but it should be possible to stop them from causing harm or to repair the damage when they do.

When you call someone a racist, please make sure that they are.  If they aren't, then you've lost your chance at gaining an ally.  Don't let the first words out of your mouth be alienating.  But if they do truly intend to cause harm then be my guest: make 'em pay for it.  I do.

by Juarez Traveller on 02/01/2008 08:09:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't think we're seeing eye to eye yet, lol (none / 0)

It would indeed be disingenuous to say that whites are the only ones to have to change beliefs or are the only racists.

To say, however, that race and racism were social and pseudoscientific constructs made to aid in and justify efforts at white supremacy doesn't seem so controversial. I've said that multiple times, while I believe racism was made to and still do directly aid and abet white supremacy, that does not mean only whites are racist.

That doesn't mean that blacks and Latinos and Asians and Native Americans can't be racist.

Such thinking, that only whites can be racist, clouds the mind.

I believe when people exert prejudice against one another, white supremacy, especially for those at the top of the economic ladder, wins. I don't think black communities win from prejudice and racism against Latinos, I don't think Asians win from hating indigenous Americans and so on and so forth. I don't get the controversy about that. It would be stupid of me to blame today's Americans for creating this centuries-old problem, but it's fair to ask Americans to be part of a solution, and that starts with criticism, especially of an unfair system.

On the other hand, to think that any group but white America benefits from racism (through privilege and prestige) is odd, although, it is as you say, white America too cannot survive a perpetually racist system, for such racism, while it secures momentary bliss and pleasure from time to time, obscures the evils that poor, working class and middle class whites share deficit from -- those with the voice that can move politicians, the people truly heard by the politicians and so-called leaders in far too many instances rob the public of their sovereignty. Racism suppresses undesirable colors, and silently robs the happy, yet ultimately disenfranchised of the desirable color(s). It's unfair to all indeed in the end, but that does not preclude it from being a system set up and designed and working toward the end result of white dominance, does it? Perhaps it would be more accurate, thinking about it in the context of this discussion to say white elite dominance?

When you tell me that if I say a comment is racist and the accused says they meant something else, then I should just step back, we don't see eye to eye. I do not think anything good gets accomplished by uncritically accepting such feedback.

My point is not to ELIMINATE racists, just as they were not created but trained. My hope is that anti-racism in some meaningful form will become at least as significant a race relations theory as today's sickeningly poor "colorblindness" school of thought, where race is irrelevant and thusly racism POOF! disappears, except when someone wants to be politically incorrect. (i.e. get a cheap laugh off a group of people most people already laugh at anyway -- Sorry touchy subject, lol)

I hope there can be a counterbalance to the current race discussion of "sweep racism and white supremacy under the rug". I am not holding my breath, but I hope.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 02/02/2008 05:10:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]
No dice (none / 0)
I think that race-conscious politics shouldn't have to make small private comments into anything more than a "I don't appreciate that" sort of deal. I think it's fair for someone who sees racism in that to say so, but I don't think it's helpful for discourse on race to NOT have an actual discourse instead preferring to just punish without at least engaging people first. That is counterproductive, but so is when people get hurt at their job like a family member of mine did, for calling out racial discrimination where they saw it to other co-workers. Now, to your idea that everyone's on pins and needles...I am completely on the opposite side. Many people, IMO, are worried that they have this enormous burden of treating *everyone* with the respect that they as people rightfully demand. This cuts across racial lines and age and sex and so forth; it's a general opinion, from what I see at least, that being called a racist is more oppressive than having someone joke about lynching you or having someone put nooses on your door, or having someone act like a stereotype attributed to people of your ethnicity and/or race. I simply put don't agree with that. Also, on the issue I talked about, Jayar's idea that people should be able to explain away racist comments and actions by saying they didn't intend to be racist, I said already and I'll say it again, if someone does something that supports the supremacy of whites in America, whether intentionally or NOT, it is racist, and to tell anti-racists of all creeds that it's okay because they really didn't intend to be racist is a spit in the eye.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 02:26:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We'll just have to disagree. (none / 0)
To me it's all about the intent: no intent, no foul.  Living like you're surrounded by a minefield of unseen bombs waiting to go off if you make a mis-step?  No thanks.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 02:36:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hehe, fine with me (none / 0)
I see it as proactive anti-racism vs. apathy, and the bleeding heart in me won't let me be apathetic. I don't swerve around a minefield, I see it as being respectful of other people's WHOLE WORTH as humans to not make racist comments as much as possible and when I do, I take responsibility and don't make the same mistake again. It's not about being perfect or whatever, it's about being respectful of other people.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 02:39:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
See above. :-) (none / 0)
We're meeting up in a different lane.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 02:46:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
heh (none / 0)
That's why I need to be more disciplined and only answer a comment at a time, lest I get my wired crossed.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 02:59:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
10 to 1 odds this makes the show (or RPG) tomorrow (none / 0)

That said, I dont' usually jump to pull the "you're racist" card so easily.  You pretty much have to say "I hate (insert racial group)" for me to really believe it.  People say a lot of stupid shit.  Especially when they talk for a living.  And I feel like a lot of it is in actions as well.  At the end of the day, even if you said "I hate black people" it's still just words.  I don't think that really becomes racist until you start to treat people differently based on it.  But I can see what you're saying.  We do think in words after all, so they do matter some.

 

This is such a leeeberal conversation though.  What are we all so bent out of shape for?  It's just a little healthy racism.  Grow up and take your lynching like everyone else.  Hello tongue, meet cheek.

by Spencer on 01/31/2008 04:03:59 AM EST

I know I'm wrong BUT (none / 0)
As someone who grew up in the 60's in Alabama I know the term "lynching" should give me some sort of Pavlovian reaction that it is automatically racist, but as someone who also grew up watching westerns on the big and little screens I must confess when I here Lynching, I immediately think of the town mob throwing a rope around the usually falsely accused cattle rustler.

Of course I suppose it's been decided that Tiger is now officially black even if he himself doesn't view himself as black I believe he refers to himself as Cablinasian.

I saw the clip in question and really didn't get a racist vibe from the lady, and unfortunately it is something I might have said as a joke not even thinking of the racial undertones. I suppose by some definitions that makes me a racist.

by Hubble on 01/31/2008 08:37:11 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Just one drop... (none / 0)
According to the one drop rule, yes, Tiger Woods is black and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.  Now that is racist.  Clearly anyone who refers to Woods (or Colen Powel or Obama for that matter) as "black" is being racist.  But somehow it is accepted to disignate someone as black even when they are half asian (yellow? can we say that?) or white or some other mix.  There can be no rehabillitation from their blackness.  They are infected with whatever small amout of "black blood" they have in them. 

Hubble, similar to you, I get the old Saturday TV western images when I see a noose or hear the word noose.  I don't automatically assume it has some sort of racist implication.  Anyone who would automatically assume that has checked their brain at the door and is now on autopilot. 
Does anyone remember the racist 80's hairmetal band "Lynch Mob"?  Oh, wait, Lynch was the guitar players last name.

by nfc on 01/31/2008 10:18:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Just a guess.... (none / 0)
"Anyone who would automatically assume that has checked their brain at the door and is now on autopilot."

Using my extraordinary detecting skills, able to ferret out the tiniest of clues and subtleties, I have come to the educated guess the nfc is not black.


:-)

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 10:31:27 AM EST

[ Parent ]
He is, however, consistent. (none / 0)
Racists I tell you, racists everywhere

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 10:49:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Clarity: I was NOT suggesting nfc is a racist! (none / 0)
...but the oddest thing happened when I read the post via the link.

For some reason, as I read it, the do-do-do-do-do wacka-wacka-wacka-wacka-wac ka guitar riff of "Shaft" started playing in my head...

Does that make me a bad person?

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 11:00:51 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Kind of a shame ... (none / 0)
... that you felt you needed to stress that.  I almost changed the link name, too, because if you're not immediately on to the fact it's a link it could sound accusing.  Pity, we fall all over ourselves (figuratively speaking) not to be painted with that brush.

I grew up in a very racist (as in, those people are different, somehow inferior, and not to be associated with) family in Pensacola, FL--also known as Southern Alabama.  Wasn't until High School, when I stopped going to Christian private schools, that I even had regular contact with people who weren't "white."  Amazing how quickly one figures out that "they" are just people like you, when one isn't blinded to the fact.  

Still, every liberal, bleeding-heart moment I'm awake I somehow feel like I have to be quick to point out how I'm "not like that anymore," like I have some sort of massive guilt burden to bear because of my upbringing.  Why is that, I wonder?

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 01/31/2008 11:08:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
'Sokay (none / 0)
I knew you knew but what the other people didn't know was that we knew so I figured it was best if they knew too.

...like I said.

Clarity.

So, what's gnu with you?

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 12:12:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Begs the question.... (none / 0)
Do the citizens of Lynchburg have to apologize for living in a town with a racist name?

Am I supposed to feel guilty for enjoying a frosty Lynchberg Lemonaide?

Should David Lynch change his name?

People already use the letter "L" for lesbians; which letter should be designated for "lynch" so we never have to use that horribly racist word again? (as in, the "H" word for "hanging" or "R" for "rope")



Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes...

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 10:26:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Or (none / 0)

Do people of color have to take on any and all racism and only call it out when it involves something "egregious" like physical violence or disenfranchisement?

Will all other instances of racism when discussed become conflated into being similar to the name of a town? Or be dismissed altogether by those unable or unwilling to confront the latent racism in our society? 

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 12:59:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You may be joking (none / 0)
But it's not too far from what many Americans will and do say when someone says they've gone too far with a joke or are being prejudiced in their beliefs or something like that. People turn to hyperbole very quickly.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 01:08:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
So in essence (none / 0)
I knew you were joking and yes, not bad, but I thought it was relevant to a point I had made.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 01:09:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
me too (none / 0)
:-)

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 02:08:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
This is why (none / 0)
I try not to say this sort of stuff on RedState, cause then it'd be "Oh you're a reverse racist", which while so obviously true, obfuscates the fact that I'm also JUST like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, as I would be later told. Silly conservatives, logic is for liberals.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 01:42:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The serious response (none / 0)
The mental image generated for me is normally dependent on the context.

If the discussion involves the civil rights struggle or the history of the white supremicist movement, a cattle rustler isn't what I picture.

In this particular case, the question that comes to my mind isn't, "Gosh! Is she making a racial reference?" My first response was "Where the hell did THAT come from?" It was a complete non-sequiter. A Sccoby Doo moment if there ever was one.

Speaking (well...typing...) as a person who has had the occasion to (ahem) spout off before completely engaging brain, I know what it's like to pop off a 'joke' only to wish I could grab it back. Not for 'sensitivity' issues, but because I knew it made absolutely no sense. (or worse, is unfunny)

I feel a little sorry for the blond bimbo trailer trash honky-fied bitch ho.

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 10:51:53 AM EST

See (none / 0)

And this is what I was saying. If she didn't think lynching had a history in America, as apparently you did not, then she should take time off and read herself some books, not tell me why I'm wrong to call her ignorance out.

You heard the comment and thought "Where the hell did that come from?" while I knew where it came from: her head. She had to know the word, and have an idea of what it meant, so in my post, if you'll read it, you'll see I tried to go over what I think are the two main ways she got to that point and why Jayar's "Let them say they didn't intend to be racist" idea doesn't work.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 01:04:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You bet! (none / 0)
 
"She had to know the word, and have an idea of what it meant."

Sure!  It's about the town gathering outside the sherrif's office wanting to hang the horse thief who killed the owner of the general store.

Or did you have something else in mind?  Oh!  That!

Well, I guess we shouldn't jump to conclusions then.

by Juarez Traveller on 01/31/2008 01:44:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Right (none / 0)
Because to know if a word is racist, I have to hear someone say they meant to demean black America and support white supremacy. That's right, the only way to tell if a comment is racist is if the original commenter says so.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 01:53:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Or (none / 0)
It's about getting a rope and hanging a black person that got a little uppity, something I know I was taught about in history class and something I would expect someone with a college education to at least have some understanding of. If she doesn't know the history of the term, then she should take some time off and learn. If she does, then she's an intentional racist and a bigot.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 02:08:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Can't think of a header (none / 0)
Yes...I think...

It seemed like a Yogiism - getting two thoughts crossed.

Usually, if you take someone into an alley, it's to beat/rob/rape/kill them. You take someone into a field to lynch them.

The thing that stumps me is: Is it a mixed metaphor or just a mangled cliche?

"If she didn't think lynching had a history in America, as apparently you did not,"

...gentle rebuff: Mmmm, not exactly what I said. I believe I am fairly aware of America's history re: lynching. It was the context aspect I was trying to delineate, not the content. Since this conversation was neither about race relations nor rounding up stray Holsteins, the entire reference seemed uncalled for - from an aesthetics POV. Sort of like watching a NASCAR event and hearing the announcer talking about a talented driver, saying, "Those new guys are gonna have to do sumpin' about Joe Racer! Maybe take him to Macy's and get him an evening dress!"

That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

by MedfordTim on 01/31/2008 02:04:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My bad (none / 0)
Sorry about the confusion and misdiagnosis on my end as well.

Cynicism is poison to reform and pumps life into the status quo.

by prezalex on 01/31/2008 02:10:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I just don't buy it (none / 0)
This whole thread seems a little silly to me. You can find racism anywhere you decide.

My wife and I were actually discussing this just the other day how people look for something to be offended by and she commented it reminder her of the scene in Annie Hall were Allen's character see antisemitism everywhere.

ALVY  I distinctly heard it. He muttered under
his breath, "Jew."

ROB You're crazy!

ALVY No, I'm not. We were walking off the
tennis court, and you know, he was there
and me and his wife, and he looked at her
and then they both looked at me, and under
his breath he said, "Jew."

ROB Alvy, you're a total paranoid.


ALVY Wh- How am I a paran-? Well, I pick up on
those kind o' things. You know, I was
having lunch with some guys from NBC, so
I said ... uh, "Did you eat yet or what?"
and Tom Christie said, "No, didchoo?"
Not, did you, didchoo eat? Jew? No, not
did you eat, but Jew eat? Jew. You get it?
Jew eat?

Posting this reference and being non jewish probably makes me some sort of racist by the definitions being thrown around here.

Some people are just too too full of them selves, and spend way too much energy looking for reasons to be insulted.

Cynics regarded everybody as equally corrupt... Idealists regarded everybody as equally corrupt, except themselves. Robert Antom Wilson

by Hubble on 01/31/2008 02:52:52 PM EST

Jayar's a bit off | 42 comments (42 topical, 0 hidden)
 Display: