What the Polls Can't Tell Us: Stuff to Worry About Until Election Day

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->There has been a lot of talk about how and why the polls will be wrong.  Here is a rundown of all the factors I am aware of that might cause a discrepancy between the polls and the final results.

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Potentially In McCain's favor-

The Bradley Effect-

Ken and every other Republican have long been celebrating that America's inherent racism will cost Obama the election.  The idea is a voter, not wanting to appear racist, will lie to a pollster and pretend he is voting for the black guy.  Once in the booth, he will revert to his Klansmen true self and Obama will lose.

The history here is the L.A. mayoral race where African-American Bradley underperformed his polling in the final count.  A similar, but far less dramatic and clear cut event was the Gubernatorial campaign of Douglas Wilder in Va.

Many are now convinced any black candidate has a built in -(insert number) in the polls.  Ken usually sets it at 8 or so.

MY TAKE- It's an interesting argument that appeals to our worst fears about ourselves.  The problem is its not really about us.  The Bradley race was in 1982!  The Wilder race (which is very unclear as to this effect anyway) was in 1989.

I suppose I believe we are a completely different society than we were 26 years ago.  My God, 1982 was the year McCain was sent to Washington.  To project those voters behaviors on race to today seems a stretch.

Here are some numbers to think about.  In 1983, polling showed HALF of all Americans were opposed to mixed race marriage.  Two years ago that number had fallen to 15%.

In 2000, pollsters asked if America was ready for a black president.   38% said yes.  Now? 68%.  That is a big change in 8 years.

But that is not all.  If you read the wiki entry I linked above on the Bradley Effect, you will see since the early90s, it seems to have disappeared. 

To sum up, I see the people pimping the Bradley Effect as why Obama can't win as I would the people who insisted JFK was unelectable as a Catholic because Al Smith lost in 1928.

Cheatin’

There is a moment that happens every election that drives me crazy every time.  I know its coming but it doesn’t help.

It goes like this.  The news comes sometime before noon and begins a story like this.  “Both Republicans and Democrats look for every edge in elections but sometimes they go to far…”  This is invariably followed by some slimy story about Republicans telling minorities the election has been moved or that their Ids will be run for warrants or that we’ve reinstituted the poll tax.  It is never followed by a story about Democratic cheating.  We are just assured it happens.

But I digress.

The GOP will cheat.  They will cage.  They will lie and intimidate to drive down voter turnout.  They might even use rigged voting machines. 

MY TAKE- There are two conflicting forces that make me wonder how intense these efforts will be. 

The first is the current administrations malfeasance.  I firmly believe that Cheney and his cronies were willing to do ANYTHING in 2004 to ensure they won the White House.  The driving force being that the place was a giant crime scene overflowing with evidence of the lying and manipulating of the first term.  It seems clear to me the Bush folks are terrified of what will happen if someone who is not friendly to them comes in and starts looking through the files.   This suggests that current officials will be willing to do whatever needs to be done to keep Obama out simply for the sake of their own self-preservation.

On the other hand, the GOP base seems fairly indifferent to McCain.  Since I imagine most cheating is done by volunteers on a local level this may be the stronger force.  Some people may just not feel as motivated to get up early on a Tuesday and go try to scare the shit out of or confuse little old black ladies all day for McCain as they were for Bush.  And before you go there, I do not think Palin, in her current state of approval, is enough to turn the tide on this.  All in all, I expect LESS cheating from the GOP.  I am more worried about one big event that the Cheney Administration could orchestrate than I am individual, foot soldier level cheating.

Potentially in Obama’s Favor

Modeling

The things that could potentially help Obama relate to modeling.  Modeling works like this:

Pollsters collect raw data from some number of potential voters.  They also collect demographic information.  They then adjust the percentages the data suggest to match their predictions of how the actual electorate will look.

Example:  Let’s say Gallup calls 500 people for a tracking poll.  Let’s say 30 of those people are between 18 and 25 (6%).  Now assume Gallup is, using past elections as a guide, assuming 14% of voters on Nov 4<sup>th</sup> will be in this age group.  They then weight the 6% of actual respondents to make up 14% of the poll “results”.  ; ; They do the same thing with party affiliation, so if they expect 36% of voters to identify as Dem and call 500 people and 42% identify as Dem, they downgrade the responses of those 42% to make 36% of the “results.”  ; ; This election is a nightmare for modelers.

The Ground Game- As a football fan and coach, I can promise you if this were being played on the gridiron, McCain would have no chance.  Obama’s ground game is so much stronger there is nothing McCain could do to overcome it.

In politics, its much less clear.  

My Take- Obama’s ground game has the potential to get a much higher percentage of his supporters into a voting booth than Dems have in the past.  Since all polls model their reported results on what happened in previous elections, this could create a serious discrepancy in Obama’s favor.

Going back to my discussion of modeling, this means that if in the past, say 80% of people who claim they will vote Gore or Kerry showed up to vote, the polls assume 80% will show up to vote Obama.  The problem this time around is that voter enthusiasm, registration and participation on the Dem side is dwarfing anything we have ever seen since these methods were adopted.
So each pollster is left asking how much of this is real and how much is an illusion.  Rasmussen, for example, seems to almost entirely discount this factor, assuming the model for this election will be almost identical to the last two.  This is one reason why Rasmussen has skewed more McCain that most other polls.  The Battleground poll is assuming there will be no change at all in black voter turnout.  This and two other key problems help to explain why it is getting such different numbers.  More on that later.  I am not predicting who is right and who is wrong here, I am just pointing out one possible cause of error.

Those Pesky Kids-

Similarly, there is great debate on how to handle the youth vote.  Battleground is assuming the percent of votes cast by those under 30 will be the same as in 2000 and 2004.  Other poll services are desperately trying to guess how high to go without going too high.

My Take- I think the kids will vote in higher numbers than ever before.  The reason many pundits insist they won’t is 1968.  But ’68 and this election have almost nothing in common short of young voters interest in the primaries. 

See, back in ’68, a whole lot of younger voters got involved in the primary because they weren’t too fond of the idea of the government forcing them to go halfway around the world to die in a swamp.  So they got involved and supported the anti-war Democrat, Bobby Kennedy.  They voted like crazy in the primary and helped Bobby to a lead in the nomination race.  Then Bobby got shot.  The Dems turned to a pro-war candidate and the kids decided they really had no reason to support this new guy since he disagreed with them on the only issue they cared about.  Consequently, given a choice between a racist, vague on the war Nixon and a pro-war Humphrey, they stayed home.  Forty years later, everyone in the political world assumes we are having a replay of that.  I don’t see it.

This time there is no issue dividing the Democratic party, there were personalities dividing it but no issues.  More importantly, the kids candidate WON.  Why the hell would they abandon the guy they got nominated.  If you want to talk about 08 in terms of 68, the only relevant question is would the kids have voted for RFK if he had lived.

Now to be fair, no one knows the answer, but I would move this discussion from something we pretend to have data on to an open question.  I am giving the kids the benefit of the doubt.  This is a Civic minded generation, as others have been in the past.  Politics are in fashion and the Democratic candidate has embraced, and been embraced by, the youngsters.  I suspect any polling company not modeling a slight to reasonable rise in young voters if going to skew McCain.  We shall see.

Cell Phones-  Another modeling nightmare is cell phones.  Not only are the numbers hard to get but younger people just won’t answer numbers they don’t know.  Consequently, cell phones are not really getting polled well.  Rasmussen and Battleground just won’t poll them at all.  Other agencies are trying to use age group adjustments to project a “what if these damn kids actually answered their phones” scenario. 

My Take- What this means is Battleground, Rasmussen and any other poll who won’t call cell phones show about a 2 point skew (according to 538.com) to McCain.  Others are kind of guessing.  Either way it injects uncertainty into the data.

If I think of other stuff, or if you post it, I will try to add it.  Let me know what you think.
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This is a huge factor in Presidential politics, and getting bigger every election.  I'm sure it happened in earlier elections, but by 2000 there was an organized effort by the Republicans to reduce the Democratic vote count.  In 2004, it was a bigger and more sophisticated effort than in 2000, and this year the Republicans have the largest and slickest effort to shave Democratic votes off the totals that has ever happened.

How big of a problem can this be?  If Obama campaign and Democratic National Committee efforts are successful, we hope to keep the damage down to 5% of the total votes or less.  If the Republicans are using techniques we haven't found yet, they could eliminate as many as 15% of the votes in swing states, nearly all Democratic votes.

If you see that the vote tallies are far different than the exit polls, like happened in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, you can bet that it is the result of successful vote tampering by the Republicans.

by rbruck on 10/01/2008 05:36:27 PM EST

of this magnitude.

by ProfRich on 10/01/2008 07:01:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In 2004, nearly half of the 6 million overseas voters never received their ballots.  In New Mexico, which was decided by less than 6,000 votes, hacked voting machines in heavily Democratic districts failed to register a presidential choice on more than 20,000 ballots.  In Ohio, more than 80,000 votes for Kerry were "accidentally" counted for Bush instead (causing a net gain of 160,000 votes for Bush), more than enough for Kerry to have taken Ohio.  These are just 3 of more than 160 incidents where Democratic votes were lost or Kerry votes were given to Bush.  It changed the outcome of the election.

This year the Obama campaign filed a lawsuit because the GOP used foreclosure lists in Michigan, Ohio and Nevada to remove tens of thousands of voters off the rolls.  Florida has refused to accept 85,000 new registrations from Democratic voters, most of them black, for reasons that they will not divulge.  In New Mexico, the mostly Hispanic county of Mora had half of the Democratic voters removed from the voting lists, compliments of a Republican "temp" computer operator.  These are a few of 32 active vote blocking efforts by Republicans going on RIGHT NOW that we know about.

Many (most?) states with mail-in voting are discarding votes from first time voters that are not accompanied with a full-color copy of the voter's driver's license.  There are no instructions ANYWHERE that lists this as a requirement, but that is the law and that is what is being enforced.

We can only speculate about the Republican schemes to block votes that we don't know about.  We can safely assume that hundreds of thousands of Obama votes will go to McCain because of computer "malfunctions" - but we don't know where or how.  We are finding some of these "glitches" on a regular basis now.

by rbruck on 10/01/2008 08:55:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I am focusing on one specific issue.  What might cause a difference between the final polls and the result.  I have never seen a 5% difference in those in a national race, much less a minimum 5%.

by ProfRich on 10/01/2008 10:56:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]

So I don't know why you continue to underestimate the effect.

3 million overseas ballots, by themselves, are 2.5% of the 123 million votes in 2004.  That one scheme got the Republicans half way to 5%.

Their effort is focused on the swing states.  In states where the vote is likely to be close, you combine the effects of all vote blocking schemes (which, themselves, can be 5%-10% if they succeed), add the effects of having lines that are 3 hours to 13 hours long to vote in Democratic precincts, state police roadblocks surrounding polling places, voting machine tampering, misplaced Democratic ballots (Republican ballots are almost never misplaced), schemes that cause Democratic votes to be counted as Republican votes, tabulating computer "bugs" that miscount in favor of Republicans 100% of the time, and it is very difficult to keep the effect as low as 5%.

Here is my question.  We have technology readily available that can count votes with 100% accuracy.  Why don't we use it?

by rbruck on 10/02/2008 09:31:11 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I am simply saying we have yet to see final tally numbers that are that different from final poll numbers in a national election.

One issue is that while they may block 2.5% of votes (overseas votes) Obama won't get 100% of those.  If he wins that group by 10% (a great number for him) you are looking at a shift in the polls that is a small fraction of a percent.

I agree they will lie, cheat and steal to disenfranchise every one they can.  I disagree that they can take a 5% Obama lead on November 4th and warp that into a McCain win.

by ProfRich on 10/02/2008 09:48:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Let's hope that Palin becomes even more of a national punchline tomorrow night.

Then drill home McCain's age and health.

by Tom Hanc on 10/01/2008 06:48:37 PM EST

I swing back and forth between confidence and anxiety.  Just when I'm feeling confident, I'll see something that scares me.  I hate to squirm!!!

by desertpear on 10/01/2008 07:11:13 PM EST

I follow the state polls and EVs pretty compulsively.

I think most who do will agree without a gamechanger that resets a lot of the basic assumptions, this thing is over.

Of course McPalin, Bush and Cheney will be working like hell to create one.  And they might just get lucky and stumble into one.

But if today's dynamic last a little more than a month, we have President Obama.

Specifically, he appears to be holding all Kerry's state comfortably and has locked down Iowa, New Mexico and Colorado.  Which equals ballgame.

by ProfRich on 10/01/2008 10:48:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
or have bobo accuse me of squirming.  I'm just getting the jump on him ;)

oh god, a month is too long!!!!  Bush will ferret out Obama and kill him with a drone.  Obama will slip up and call McCain a honky. help!  Can't someone put me into one of those medical comas and wake me up when Obama is king?

by desertpear on 10/02/2008 12:31:05 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You make a lot of good points in your posting. I Agree in that this situation is unique and that past elections can't be totally relied on to predict future results... I disagree in that you Liberals are getting way too overconfident (Cocky) before the actual time we vote. I have in my mind that scene from "Return of the Jedi" when the emperor and Luke are speaking before the lightsaber duel. Luke says something like "Your confidence is your weakness", and the Emperor replies "And your faith in your friends is yours!" I think that's where the voting electorate is at - really at a choice betwteen the dark side and the good... :)

by bobo1 on 10/01/2008 07:55:43 PM EST

Are you saying Darth Cheney is going to repent and throw Emperor McCain to his death down a reactor shaft?  Because that would be sweet.

by Kang the Conqueror on 10/01/2008 10:06:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]

So McCain is Luke and the Dems are the dark side?

I think you need to watch those movies again.  Pay particular attention to the role fear plays in politics and philosophy.  Then watch the last eight RNCs.

Anyway, my post is just addressing why what the polls say the morning of Nov 4th may not line up with the results.  If the Dems are overconfident and that hurts their chances that will show up as a shift in the polls between now and the election.  I agree it could be a problem for the light side though.

The counterpart is even more dangerous though.  The longer and more seriously, McCain's campaign comes across as dead in the water, the harder it will be for them to raise money, get volunteers and drive the conversation.  The fetid stench of McPalin's rotting corpse will drive off a lot more money and support than the Dems arrogance.  Remember, big money is spent on campaigns based on what the donators will get from the winner.  And volunteers are a lot less likely to give up a Saturday for a lost cause.  I think if McCain is 6-8 points down in a week, week and a half they are done baring a miracle.

by ProfRich on 10/01/2008 10:54:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I don't think any amount of campaigning is going to sway anyone.  Most educated voters have already made up their minds, and unless either McCain or Obama is caught with a live boy or a dead girl, there's going to be little shift one way or another.  My REAL BIG concern is the know-nothing voters who literally go into the voting booth and see the names John McCain or Barack Obama for the first time.  Those cats scare me. 

Here's the one bit of good news.  The know-nothings typically know nothing because they are immersed in their own little world of (what I'll refer to as) popular culture.  They play video games, smoke pot, watch TV or movies, and surf the internet inbetween grabbing 10 hours of sleep, usually between the hours of 4 am and 2 pm.  In other words, these cats DON'T VOTE.  And if they do, they might have enough of a pop culture sense (from getting stoned while watching the Daily Show) to know that one candidate is an old fuddy-duddy who everyone makes fun of and the other guy is a somewhat cool, connected candidate all the stars want to support and be seen with.  At that point, actual policy means nothing.  They will vote for the "popular" candidate based on who pop culture tells them is the popular candidate.  And there's no denying, McCain has completely lost the popular culture vote this cycle.  Add to that the fact that young voters (who make up a huge block of the know-nothings) have been out in full force behind Obama, and you have some overlap.  The educated young voter has been telling their pot-smoking slacker friends how great Obama is.


McCain may stick around in the polls (barring Palin being raptured out of the debate tonight), but he really has lost the key battles that make up the war.  That's not to say the Rethuglicans don't have a A-Bomb up their sleeve, but in the conventional sense, this war has been over for weeks now.

by Kang the Conqueror on 10/02/2008 09:02:23 AM EST

[ Parent ]
the bradley effect is pretty much bunk now.  I saw on one of the polling sites a few weeks ago that during the primary Obama actually OVERperformed in most states. 

by alienufo on 10/01/2008 09:59:35 PM EST

Most pundits today are starting to talk about the reverse-Bradley Effect.  People are saying they are undecided or voting for the white dude, then switching to Obama.

I guess they think the poll goes on their permanent record, and they don't want anyone to sneak into the principal's office and find out they threw their support behind the black guy.

by Kang the Conqueror on 10/01/2008 10:08:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]

It did occur to me some crackers might be unwilling to admit to wanting to vote for the black guy. 

If there is a Bradley Effect, why not a Palin Effect?

There are plenty of sexists out there.  Might they not lie and pretend to be voting for the woman?

Come to think of it, isn't there just a giant theme of shame in the McCain campaign?  If you don't support the woman and the POW shame on you!

Seems like that could create a McPalin Effect. 

by ProfRich on 10/01/2008 11:03:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
With every new snippet of video, Plain's numbers go lower and lower.  Of course Palin's rallies will feature thousands of women, and that's what the pictures in the papers will be, but the insinuation is that those women WERE for Barack, and have now switched their alliegence.  The simple fact is, McCain had female supports before he picked Palin, and they now have a little something extra to cheer about.  But that's not the same as saying every woman out there is going to vote for McPalin.

The debate tonight will be a very clear indicator of a Plain effect.  I predict one of two things will happen.  One: Palin will have a gaffe and the postdebate numbers will show a slip.  Not huge (no 10 point drops), but enough to register (3 points or thereabouts).  This is a clear sign that the American voter will not stand for a Palin presidency.  Two: Palin will hold her own.  She won't win (I've been to the 40th century and back including several alternate dimensions, and in none of those would I find a Palin debate victory), but she doesn't have any huge mistakes.  The numbers won't move more than a point in either direction.

In other words, the best Palin can do tonight is keep the status quo.  I don't think she'll be able to bump McCain like she did with the RNC speech.  This is a different arena, and one where she's not the superstar, but rather the main attraction (at the freak show).  Millions will tune in tonight, but not to see how good Palin can be, but rather how bad she'll do.  It's a morbid curiosity factor.  And that's the Palin effect:  Millions will watch, show up, and see her perform, but only a small fraction will actually support her.  She's the bearded lady or the dog faced boy.  You want to see them, but you definitely don't want to take them home to mama.

by Kang the Conqueror on 10/02/2008 09:14:06 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I think the Rethuglicans will cheat.  Rethuglicans not cheat?  It's like asking a shark to stop swimming.  It'll die if it goes against its nature.  This is where Obama's ground game cancels out the Rethuglican's usual plans.  Early voting will be key.  In states with early voting, Obama's people are getting little old ladies and young voters out en masse NOW versus trying to get them out on November 4th (when voting machines convieniently fail or when the thulicans are out in full force).  The Rethuglicans can have their brownshirt army out November 4th, but there's no way they can be out between NOW and November 4th every day at every polling place.  Advantage Obama.

Also, pollsters holding on to the "old ways" will be proven wrong.  I don't worship at the altar of fivethirtyeight dot com, but I appreciate the work they put into their projections by, oh, I don't know, actually trying to analyze the relevant data to create an accurate picture.  The fact that some pollsters DO NOT count the young vote with any added emphasis or DO NOT call cell phones in this day and age makes their work meaningless.  It's like arguing against German immigration today because the Krauts fought against us 60 years ago.  Battleground (which until recently had McCain AHEAD +2) is a glaring example of this.  How can you not count the young voter, especially given the impact Obam has had generating their support.  Kerry did nothing to attract young voters in 2004.  He relied on the pop culture icons of the day (Paris Hilton?  Puff Daddy?) to get out the vote for him.  I could have told you that would have been a disaster and saved you the time and effort.  Obama has generated real support, and I can not wait to see his youth turnout on election day.  Win or lose (I say "win"), Obama's campaign will change the way people think about the young voter.

Finally, Palin's performance tomorrow night notwithstanding, she has become a real liability to McCain's campaign.  Granted, she was the only thing keeping McGramps' campaign afloat, but there has been so much bad buzz for Palin, that I don't see her creating the huge turnout everyone says she'll produce.  Sure, the evangelicals will turn out (but most of them would have anyway), but I don't see women voters (the so-called "hockey moms") crawling out of the woodwork to vote with their vaginas.  Add in a possible "nuclear-gaffe" tomorrow, and I think Palin's negatives completely outweigh her positives.

Oh, and BTW, has anyone seen Ken?  I haven't seen a post from him since last Friday.  Should we start dragging the bottoms of rivers or start looking in dark alleys?  And for God's sake, someone take away his belt, tie, and shoelaces should he return! 

by Kang the Conqueror on 10/01/2008 10:28:57 PM EST

Seems familiar but I can't place him.  Was he the guy with all the spelling errors? Or the guy who got booted for posting all the talking points and refusing to respond?  or the guy who only posts six months after we are all done with a topic?

Guess I'll never know.

by ProfRich on 10/01/2008 11:44:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I like how Ken accuses us of being all silent when Obama is dropping in the polls.  

by desertpear on 10/02/2008 12:34:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Ken is still reading these posts, trust me.

One of four things things have happened.

1. He wants to prove to all of us how important he is here by being quiet.  (Snicker), that means don't mention his name and he will go away.

2. He now realizes the damage his fellow Texan GW has done to his beloved  Neo Con Republican party and chose to be quiet.

3. He is heavily invested in real estate and is scrambling to  save what he can.

4. His Dad (and employer) found out how much time he was spending on the internets  and threatened to replace him with someone who got their chemical engineering degree (oooh impressive) over seas.

Regardless, he is gone. Count your blessings. 

by z1p101 on 10/02/2008 01:35:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]

This is kind of a big deal and it was stupid of me to leave it out.

People are voting right now.  Which means they are voting at a high water mark for Obama.  So even as the polls tighten (if they do) Obama still benefits from doing so well during this early voting.  That might skew a point or two for him in states that are already voting.

If McCain is able (by hook or by crook) to tighten it up lets say a week before the election, he will still have lost some serious ground to the early voters.

I also believe that early voting will be dramatically higher this cycle as their is clear concern about long lines on election day and people are really tuned in to the race more than ever.

Good post, Kang.

by ProfRich on 10/01/2008 11:48:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Barack is LOCKING IN VOTES NOW.  He can have a gaffe later, and it might hurt him, or McCain can come on strong in the end with his own "Willie Horton"-type ad, but it'll make very little difference.  Barack already got the votes cast in his favor thanks to his ground game.  And I've been saying it all along, the ground game will be very key.  Today, in Ohio, there will be thousands of votes cast for either candidate.  Those votes CAN'T CHANGE, no matter what each candidate does.  By virtue of having the better ground game, you know Obama is getting the lion's share of those votes.  I know I'll be early voting to avoid long lines on election day.  And I'll bet millions of others will do the same.  Here's where the ground game wins it. 

by Kang the Conqueror on 10/02/2008 09:18:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]

So far, in some places, half of the early votes are being discarded because new voter identification is not adequate.  This is supposed to HELP Obama?

It kinda pisses me off that we have to register two new voters to get one vote that counts.

by rbruck on 10/02/2008 09:36:24 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Where's Ken?  We should check all of his usual hangouts.  I'll check the bench of his old high school football field, Tiny can swing by the bath houses, and bobo can hit up the cross burnings in the area.

by Spencer on 10/02/2008 12:44:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Hey, are the Turks covering the debate tomorrow?

by desertpear on 10/02/2008 12:53:50 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Wondering where that fucking troll is. why dont you  log into free republic and find him and give it a fucking rest. By the way you sound maybe YOU should be checking the bath houses for him/her/it.


by Chinese Democracy on 10/02/2008 04:38:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]

And for the record this is actually the third post where I've been asking where he is.  I'm just dying to see how he would try to defend Palin and McCain after all that's went on since he last posted (polls tanking for McCain, Republican-caused economic collapse, Palin speaking, etc.).  The reaching he would have to do right now would be legendary.  Convenient that he isn't around.

Also, quit being an asshole.

by Spencer on 10/02/2008 04:59:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You can listen to the comedian rush limbaugh and get a pre view of everything he/she /whatever would post. No need to pollute a perfectly nice thread with trolls inane ramblings.

I dont buy into the notion that trolls are necessary to thriving blog. Or do I agree that freedom of speech has anything to do with a privately owned blog on the internet.

If calling me an arse hole makes you feel special.. thats fine with me. I wont cry.


by Chinese Democracy on 10/02/2008 08:31:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]

I thought it was fairly obvious that I was mocking him for not showing his face now that everything on his side is collapsing.  I'll try not to be so subtle in the future.

And I didn't say anything about him being "necessary", or about freedom of speech.  That's all you.

by Spencer on 10/03/2008 12:01:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]

If I had any idea how to recommend this post, I would.

And bobo was headed over to the cross burnin' anyway so that should be easy.

Bobo, can you recognize Ken's sheet?

by ProfRich on 10/02/2008 07:28:16 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I agree with Prof that the Bradley/Wilder Effect is probably no more if it ever was.  Here is a paper showing just that.  The authors find some over-estimation of black candidate support in the early 80s, but that has disappeared over time.  They also find no female Bradley effect.  That is, they find no evidence of female candidates over- or under-performing compared to poll results, and they have quite a few Senate and Governatorial data points as well as more local elections.  Here is Nate Silver's debunking of the myth.  

On the modelling/young voter points, Nate had an interesting post a few days ago about Ann Selzer and how she is modelling youth turnout.  She is the pollster who kicked everyone's ass in predicting the Iowa caucuses.  Her polls have Obama ahead by more than other polls. 

by publius on 10/02/2008 03:13:28 AM EST

The results of the most recent study conducted on voters' racial attitudes--released only about 10 days ago, and conducted in conjunction with Stanford.

More than a third of all white Democrats and independents -- voters Obama can't win the White House without -- agreed with at least one negative adjective about blacks, according to the survey, and they are significantly less likely to vote for Obama than those who don't have such views.

"There are a lot fewer bigots than there were 50 years ago, but that doesn't mean there's only a few bigots," said Stanford political scientist Paul Sniderman who helped analyze the exhaustive survey.

The findings suggest that Obama's problem is close to home -- among his fellow Democrats, particularly non-Hispanic white voters. Just seven in 10 people who call themselves Democrats support Obama, compared to the 85 percent of self-identified Republicans who back McCain.

Statistical models derived from the poll suggest that Obama's support would be as much as 6 percentage points higher if there were no white racial prejudice.

But in an election without precedent, it's hard to know if such models take into account all the possible factors at play."

by desertpear on 10/02/2008 04:07:10 AM EST

The Bradley effect is the difference between poll results and actual elections results that comes from people telling an interviewer that they support the black candidate when they really end up not supporting that candidate.  It has to do with people being hesitant to reveal their racism to a person on the telephone, not with racism in general. 

The study in the article you reference is probably a very good survey about racism--the article, by the way, we should mention is written by our good buddy Ron Fournier--but it seems to have little to do with the Bradley effect. 

Also, the survey was conducted August 27th - September 5th which was almost entirely during the RNC which explains the low support among conservative Democrats at the time.

by publius on 10/02/2008 06:06:28 AM EST

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I believe that this study did address the Bradley effect, in an indirect fashion.  The study was specially designed to get people to reveal their racial attitudes because people normally do not like to admit to such things.  Not relevant?

by desertpear on 10/02/2008 03:58:19 PM EST

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A lot of folks have recommended Real Clear Politics' for understanding the polls.  Perhaps not surprisingly, it seems that one of RCP's competitors, Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com suggests that their reports may be biased.

He makes a convincing case.

by EveningStarNM on 10/02/2008 10:27:46 AM EST

If you want a clearing house of polls, go to PollingReport.com.

If you want the latest state data, go to Electoral-Vote.com.

If you want a well-reasoned, weighted, comprehensive average of all the polls, go to fivethirtyeight.com.

All are much better than RCP.

by ProfRich on 10/02/2008 11:01:51 AM EST

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