At this point, does it really matter who wins?

Email Print posted by Dond 10/10/2008 01:43:29 PM EST

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Don't misunderstand me. I am firmly on the progressive side, and fully expect Obama to take this election with at least 340 electoral votes. And I expect the Senate to go even more solidly Democratic, with a filibuster-proof, 60-plus majority. But is that going to be enough?

Sometimes I hesitate to start one of these discussions because it soon degenerates into a snidefest, submerging the original point with layer upon layer of snarky, often vituperative silliness.

But, anyway, doesn't it seem to most of you that, based on the evidence of recent McCain-Palin rallies, nerves are just too raw, tempers are just too inflamed, prejudices are just too locked in for any kind consensus to develop after November 4?

How many members of the frothing rabble screaming epithets at McCain-Palin rallies are ever going to become reconciled to an Obama presidency? How many of these folks are not going to spend the next four years becoming increasingly angry? How long is it going to be before the first of a series of plots to take out Barack Obama and, perhaps, members of his family and administration, start to surface? What kind of future can we realistically expect, after the vituperation and viciousness of this campaign and the McCain-Palin's role in encouraging it?

Does anybody really think the ugliness of the past month is going to subside to any appreciable degree over the next four years? Does anyone think that the legitimate conservative opposition is going to be able to cauterize the festering sore of ultra-right-wing hatred and resentment?

I was a child during the McCarthy period, a college sophomore when John Kennedy was killed, a student when the kids at Kent State were shot by the National Guard, a graduate student when Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were assassinated; I was in Grant Park during the Chicago riots; one of my professors, Dick Flacks, was beaten to a pulp by right wing fanatics in his office at the University of Chicago and I watched the paramedics scrambling to keep him from bleeding to death before they could get him into the ambulance -- and I am painfully, dreadfully worried that we really haven't seen anything yet.

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At this point, does it really matter who wins? | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)
The Country Will Come Together (none / 0)

Tragic events bring out the best in the American people.  We will all get behind a common goal of repairing the capitalist economy that 28 years of Reaganomics has destroyed (past is prologue).  Times will be tough for many people, and our retirees will need much more help now that their savings were destroyed by the mismanaged economy.  But we will all get through this by helping each other, and our country will be a stronger place because of it.

by rbruck on 10/10/2008 02:22:28 PM EST

I hope so (none / 0)
Let's hope that a concern for the common good trumps the current hysteria. I'm not going to allow myself seriously to entertain the possibility that the folks shouting "Kill Him" at McCain-Palin rallies will, in fact, rally behind Barack Obama once he takes office - at least not until I see some real evidence that people are regaining their common sense. But I'm with you in hoping that whatever good comes out of this election will outweigh the ugliness.

by Dond on 10/10/2008 02:28:58 PM EST

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I Can See Your Point But (none / 0)

I live in an extremely conservative region.  The things I hear people say sometimes perplex me and other times show me just how narrow and uninformed these people are.  The very brand of conservatism in my humble opinion is based in large part on hate.  Divide and conquor.  Like the Chimp said in 2001; "you are either with us or you are with the terrorist."  The simpletonness to coin a word leaps out in these kind of statements. As I have said before, the nuaunces of gray pervade life.  There are no absolutes except for the statement that there are no absolutes.  The lack of objective judgment on the part of most everyday conservatives will not allow us to "pull together".  They will continue to hate and facilitate and propagate it.  The evidence is obvious. Just look at the mobs that show up at Palin's cheerleading events. 

The conservative approach is simple (in more ways than one) You either support our ideology or we will destroy you.  You are not allowed to think.  You are not allowed to have your own opinion or you are unamerican.  You are a "traitor" if you do not espouse precisely to the core of our beliefs.  There is no 1st amendment unless we are engaging it.  Conservatives use freedom of speech to spread lies, hate and propaganda.  I don't think the founders wanted the 1st amendment "whored" to achieve underhanded political ends.  Personally, I am sick of these mutherfuckers that wrap themselves in the flag and spit out the words "freedom and liberty" while at the same time wipeing their feet on the constitution.  

Conservativism in this country believes in absolutes.  Remember the bumper sticker "love it or leave it"?  When real patriots point out the flawed policies of the Bush administration such as torture, and killing innocent people with bombs, a conservative will brand you as unpatriotic and an "America Hater".  

Well its time to step down off my soap box.  Got a little carried away there.  However, as far as pulling together in a crisis.  The conservatives will have to see some personal gain.  They are not capable of meeting in the middle. 

BTW, I do not hate conservatives. I do hate their simple minded barbaric ways.  

by psyche2 on 10/10/2008 03:15:18 PM EST

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Nah, not carried away. (none / 0)

I think it's quite the opposite of carried away, you didn't go far enough. Because you're absolutely right.

Listen, I know two people on a forum I administrate at and they're die-hard republicans. They reject all facts. You can't debate with these people because they spew nonsense, half-truths, or blatant lies they heard from other conservatives (namely McCain and Palin) and pretend they're "good points" and that they've cornered me. When I explain why what they're saying is simply untrue and what the truth is, they absolutely won't have it. They refuse it.

There isn't even a debate. To them, the discussion is over, and as soon as factual information is brought into the discussion, they throw their hands up and go "Damn libs!"

This doesn't apply to all, but many conservatives I know simply think like cavemen. They're complete and utter cavemen. They reject reality and instead take the word of an alpha figure as the ultimate truth, even in the face of the real facts.

One way you can get an insight into how they think, is I ranted on that forum about how I was sick of McCain's Bill Ayers/Barack Obama lies.

One of them asked me a peculiar question. He said, "How is Bill Ayers NOT a terrorist?"

This question was peculiar because it was so telling of his thought process, because I never suggested Bill Ayers wasn't a terrorist. He wasn't interested in whether or not Barack Obama actually was the friend of Bill Ayers or whether he condoned Bill Ayers' actions 40 years ago; McCain and Palin told him they were buddies and it was the ultimate truth to him. It never crossed his mind that they might only have worked together on an educational board in Chicago, the only thing that crossed his mind is that I might be challenging the definition of a terrorist.

His real question should have been "What proof do you have that he isn't friends with/condone the 40 year-old actions of Bill Ayers?" But again, it's just the way they think. They don't ask questions to find truth, truth is irrelevant, it's besides the point. Facts are a nuisance; if facts are in the way of their agenda, then damn the facts.

After debating with these people for several long months, I've come to the conclusion that some people are simply incapable of digesting facts. They don't want them. They absolutely will not hear them. They're too cozy believing everything the fear mongers program them to believe, being programmed into believing everyone who doesn't hold your ideals is the enemy of you and humanity, and seeks to take everything from you. And they believe it, without question.

-Jason B. (CaptainDingo)

by Jason Brown on 10/10/2008 03:33:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There will always be a certain percentage (none / 0)
of flat earthers..  

My parents are  Republicans but they  aren't anything like the extremist nutbags that post on liberal blogs.

by Chinese Democracy on 10/10/2008 03:50:06 PM EST

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Your mother and me. (none / 0)
Sometimes you claim she's a dead Democrat.

Sometimes you claim she's a live Rebublican.

Either way, I hope your Mom is doing well. She and I used to be very, very close friends, around the time you were conceived.

by KenTX on 10/10/2008 04:11:17 PM EST

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Even Low Information Voters... (none / 0)

...Understand a Soup Kitchen.

The Neocon agenda has failed, and failed miserably.  Most of us, and particularly the middle class and lower class, will suffer because of it.

The world is a much different place today than it was a month ago.  We are not seeing it yet in our daily lives, but we cannot lose trillions of dollars in wealth without feeling pain.  The pain is coming.

The fact that we still feel that we have to argue against the failed conservative policies show that even us liberals have not fully grasped what has happened.

It is no longer that we want change or that change is inevitable, but that change has already occurred.

In a few weeks, we will elect level-headed and clear-thinking leaders who will bring us to America 2.0.  The Neocon agenda is over.

by rbruck on 10/10/2008 04:31:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
rbruck (none / 0)
I agree,, its over. However, the neocons and other conservative elements won't be able to handle it.  Its like the distorted thinking style of "being right".  One that overly depends on this thought distortion instead of facing reality will just become more angry.  People engaging in "being right" don't have much use for the truth. They are more interested in defending thier own assumptions and ideals.  This leads to bitterness and a sense of helplessness when reality strikes home. That is if the party is capable of accepting it "striking home". The past 28 yrs have proven it with the creshindo (sp) on wallstreet being the death knell.  The conservative agenda has proven to be a loser.  It is already antiquated.  An antique we can look back on and learn from. Don't go there again! And don't allow the country to be torn down by the greed and mean spiritedness of the perspective.

by psyche2 on 10/10/2008 05:22:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
They Have a Right to be Angry (none / 0)

They were deceived by proponents of a conservative social agenda to accept a fascist economy.  Even the fascists were deceived into believing that unfettered fascism could coexist with capitalism.

It will take them time.  They will go through:

Denial.

Anger.

Bargaining.

Depression.

And finally acceptance.

It will take time.

What the Progressives can do to help is to provide an outlet for their conservative social values under an economy ruled by middle class interests and fiscal responsibility.  Maybe the Republican Party can become that?

by rbruck on 10/10/2008 06:24:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
At this point, does it really matter who wins? | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 hidden)
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