Is Cenk white, brown or olive?

Email Print posted by charlesf 10/13/2008 04:46:41 PM EST

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Ok, let me go all racialist here...

Cenk once described himself as "olive".

To me, Turks are white. I think it would be a pretty artificial to draw a line between say Greeks and Turks. They all tend to be of the darker Mediterranean complexion, but any artificial line would be rather more cultural or religious than racial.

In a similar vein, plenty of Hispanics appear to me as being "white". Interestingly, Hispanics fought hard to be recognised as being "white" by the US Census Bureau in past decades.

Race strikes me as being largely a matter of perception. Interestingly, mixed race folks tend to be regarded as being non-white (if part of the mix is Caucasian). Just consider Obama.

Anyway, I'm mildly curious how you perceive Cenk's race.

< Open Thread | Jayar Jackson cute animal challenge. >

Poll

Is Cenk white, brown or olive?
White 15%
Brown 0%
Olive 50%
Other 35%

Votes: 20
Results | Other Polls
 Display:
Is Cenk white, brown or olive? | 56 comments (56 topical, 0 hidden)
None of the above (none / 0)
You forgot CHINAMAN

by qsoundrich on 10/13/2008 04:48:32 PM EST

i would doubt (none / 0)
that most white people consider turks "white"...Turks are just as likely to be "nation of Mooslam" as an Ayerab to your hillbilly, so I think your assessment is correct that their line is cultural and not completely genetic, although I've seen some TURKISH noses...Let me clarify, I personally don't believe in race

Chris

by chrisandyasemin on 10/13/2008 04:57:21 PM EST

The Poll (none / 0)
I wanted to vote in the poll, but then I noticed that there was no "Don't Give A Fuck" option.

I thought this was a really really weird topic. Then I realized that you are German. My guess is that you probably vote CDU, don't you? But this was more of an NPD type of post, don't you think?

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 05:03:49 PM EST

PS (none / 0)
To those TYTs that aren't familiar with German culture and politics: Germany has a large population of Turks. They are considered by the politcal center to be an immigrant labor class - similar to how Americans regard Mexican Nationals, and are considered Auslander by the Right. "Auslander" literally means "foreigner" but it carries a certain negative connotation in German culture, especially on the Right, as you can imagine.



by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 05:14:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)
> To those TYTs that aren't familiar with German culture and politics: Germany has a large population of Turks. They are considered by the politcal center to be an immigrant labor class - similar to how Americans regard Mexican Nationals, and are considered Auslander by the Right.
 
Well, there are Germans of Turkish descent and there are Turkish nationals. Much as in any other country...
 
To the latter, we refer to as "Ausländischer Mitbürger", i.e. foreign fellow-citizens. 
 
> "Auslander" literally means "foreigner" but it carries a certain negative connotation in German culture, especially on the Right, as you can imagine.
 
That's crazy-talk. It has no negative connotation. No more than "foreigner" in English.
 
As for the German "right", well, the Christian-Democrats are centrist. The party has traditionally been a mix of conservative, liberal and social values. The Christian-Democrats are arguably also Germany's closest match to the US Democrats.
 
You've got a really warped picture of German culture, I fear. 
 
 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 05:24:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
CDU (none / 0)
The CDU is the Center? Tell that to the SPD.

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 05:30:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
CDU = Democrats? (none / 0)
Are you fucking kidding? No, the CDU would be the German analogue tothe Republican Party. The SPD is closer to the Democratic Party.

You ARE CDU, aren't you? Now, how did I guess that?

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 05:33:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
2 party stupidity (none / 0)
this makes it so difficult to compare them

the CDU corresponds indeed to a part of the Republican party (and to the Blue Dogs), but the GOP also houses people who would be in an extreme right wing or even fascist party in Europe

American parties have too many groups in their tent, which makes that they don't have a consensus about many things within the party itself.

by callisto on 10/13/2008 05:45:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

You clearly don't know much about the German political scene.

We just don't have anything like the current GOP.

All parties here are for gun control, evolution is no controversy, everyone is serious about climate change, all centrist parties have an internationalist foreign policy outlook, pro-free trade and for a social market economy.

The differences between the SPD and CDU are really quite small. Ever since the SPD moved to the centre following the 1959 "Godesberger Party Manifesto".

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 05:45:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
CDU GOP Bavaria (none / 0)
I don't agree with the inference that you have no party of the right. There is Bavaria, and those people do vote. And how do they vote?

The political and social ideas of many provincial Bavarians strike me as so much like those of the American south and mid-west in many ways. The geography and population density is also very similar, with the exception of Munchen, it's farmland, villages and small towns. There's racism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. There IS a hidden nationalism there and conservative cultural, social and political ideas.

These people are voting CDU....and NPD. The CDU is broader than you might like to think.

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 06:13:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

Nonsense.

The Bavarians are very grounded people. In Bavaria, left-wing and right-wing radicals do really badly. They have far too good a live to be haters.

It's in the ex-GDR where you find the most xenophobic folks. People are up-rooted there. And so you get there people who vote for non-centre parties.

I think you're letting your left-wing prejudices show against the traditionalist Bavarians. That's it. They're traditionalist. But also very enterpreneurial and open. They're a good natured folk.

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 06:26:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
JaJa ist gut (none / 0)
"Good-natured folk"

This sounds almost EXACTLY like how American politicians refer to our heartland "folks" - "salt o the Earth".

Traditionalist Bavarians  - yep. Exactly.

JaJa ist gut.

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 06:34:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Wait what? (none / 0)
Don't you mean ex-DDR?

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 06:36:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I have to say (none / 0)
Munich gave off a rightwing vibe :) probably just a feeling

did have the worst taxi driver EVER in Munich during Oktoberfest.
Beer wasn't that great, BUT had a great night at a strip club, had to bailout my friend, €900 on champagne hanging out with a German prince in the VIP area :) while I was having fun in the common folk area :-)

by callisto on 10/13/2008 06:43:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Right-Wing vibe (none / 0)
Bavaria was the seat of Nazi power. Almost all electoral support for that party came from Bavaria. Virtually all of the party leaders were from there. And the Right Wing stance hasn't changed much at all.

All the original Nazi nazi supporters have past away now. But most of these people never recanted, the went to their graves praising.

Muunich isn't as Right Wing as the rest of Bavaria. But, with the exceptions of the tourists, Oktoberfest is like a bunch of drunken Nazis, or at least this is the feeling of many non-Bavarian Germans.


Many Germans are embarrassed of Bavaria, and like to disclaim from them from actually being German, in much the same way americans are embarrassed by and disclaim rednecks. In fact, rednecks is a good analogy.

 A good case in point is that many Germans take great pains to explain that what many Americans think of as German culture is actually Bavarian culture. The names Hans and Franz, Rightwing xenophobia, bier und feisch, lederhosen, the hokey German dances, oom-pa-pa music, that Bavarian accent, the rolled R, Oktoberfest, Nazism - almost everything the average American thinks about German culture is actually Bavarian culture. And this is a great embarrassment to many Germans, who are highly educated, thoughtful, cosmopolitian people.

Now, I'm not hating on Bavarians, I'm just expressing my impressions of that state and it's people general.

Baden-Wurttemburg is a neighboring state that is also quite Right Wing. So Right wing, in fact, that they banned performances of Chick Corea because he is a Scientologist. And, yeah, in case you didn't know, Germany doesn't have as broad a sense of Freedom of Religion as the US. Scientology, I think, is not recognized as an official religion, and it is viewed in the general culture as a cult. AND, Methodists are also viewed as cultish, although I don't know if it's recognized or not officially. I'm not casting stones, I also view Scientology as a cult - but as an american, I don't believe that I have the authority to define those people's religious beliefs for them, and so, at best, would only void their tax exempt status or something, but certainly would make it illegal.

PS - @Charles - I LOVE Germans - literally - or at least I love one German.

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 07:10:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

> Many Germans are embarrassed of Bavaria, and like to disclaim from them from actually being German, in much the same way americans are embarrassed by and disclaim rednecks. In fact, rednecks is a good analogy.

That's a typically left-wing view.

Anyway, the redneck label really doesn't work as Bavarians (and that includes the immigrants and their descendants living there!) are better educated than much of the rest of Germany.

The best universities and most successful companies tend to be in the South of Germany - the most conservative part of Germany, basically.

So your analogy really doesn't make any sense.

 

 

 

by charlesf on 10/15/2008 01:12:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

Well, the SPD is also a centrist party. Much as the FDP.

Our centre is very crowded. The parties are simply not that far apart as in the USA.

Really, you could say that the CDU corresponds to Clintonism and the DLC, while the SPD is more the labor-wing of the US Democrats, while the FDP is more like the libertarian part of the Democratic party.

 

 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 05:37:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
ahahaha OK OK (none / 0)
This is where our US-German politcal analogy breaks down. I think that my comparison of SPD and CDU to the DNC and GOP respectively was, as you know, too simplistic. The parties do not directly correlate, of course.


But as a rough analogy to which parties represent the basic left and right of the respective populations, I see the DNC and SPD as representing the Left of each population, and the GOP and CDU representing the Right.


But again, there is no direct correlation, as the basic stances of the 2 general populations are different. The German center, for example is to the left of the American center, obviously. And the basic political structure of Germany is MUCH different given the plurality of the German parties.  And of course, the national issues are much different.

But as far as your statement that the 2 American parties are not that far apart, this is true if you're speaking of the center. But there is a line that can't be crossed on certain issues by most members of either party.

And beyond this, the 2 parties are very broad. I'm not a DLC kinda guy - far from it. The DLC could be considered the corporate middle regarding as the political spectrum. But the DLC type Dems don't extend so deeply into the party, particularly at this point. The same can be said of the Moderate Conservatives on the right.

If the US did have the type of party structures that Gemany does, our version of the NPD would be much greater than the 2% than it is in Germany, and our PBC would be huge.

So, that kind of direct comparison won't do us any good really. I probably should have said something like "MY political view as a Progressive is closer to SPD". This would be more accurate, but only as an analogy, because the issues aren't at all the same. It was just a general statement. Having said that, I maintain that the SPD would not allow the CDU to claim the Left.

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 05:58:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

> If the US did have the type of party structures that Gemany does, our version of the NPD would be much greater than the 2% than it is in Germany, and our PBC would be huge.

Well, the NPD/DVU/Republikaner (radical/extremist right) and PBC (Christian fundamentalists have in the US a party of their own. It's called the GOP.

They've taken it over. And ironically every massive defeat the GOP suffers makes them yet more radical.

Why? Because the moderates in marginal seats lose their seats in landslide defeats, while the radicals have safe seats.

So, I think the GOP is bound to get more radical in the coming years. We might see them thus go the way of the dodo and another new party emerge in its place.

In any case, I predict a long Democratic dominance.

Back to the US-Germany political correlation:

Yes, it's difficult. We have a totally different political culture.

We just don't the type of costituencies Grover Norquist ("fiscal conservative", Falwell (religious right) or Cheney ("authoritarian") represent.

That's very alien to any of our mainstream parties.  

You really need to think of the German mainstream parties (CDU, SPD, FDP and Greens) as factions within the US Democrats.

Okay, the FDP has a bit of a libertarian bent and is probably the one German mainstream party which least comfortably fits into the US Democrats' big tent.

There is also some overlap of the CDU with moderate Republicans, but then, hardly any of those are left.

As for the SPD, their left wing is really beyond US Democratic progressives. Bernie Sanders territory at least.

In any case, German politics is far less ideological and more technocratic in nature. We just don't have the culture war which is raging - still - in the USA.

The Anglo-Saxon model of confrontation is simply very different from the continental model of compromise and consensus. 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 06:42:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
SPD (none / 0)
Yes, I agree. It is to the left of the Democratic Party now. But within the Democratic Party are the Progressives, who sit left of the DLC. Progrssives would identify with the SPD.

Traditionally, the American Left was pro-labor. But not, many of the contintuancy of labor are involved with the far Right.  This leaves the US without a real Left Wing.

Progressives like me remain traditionally pro-labor, as this position is the morally and socially correct position. About half of US labor votes against their best interests economically by voting GOP, because their vote is for social or reactionary reasons.

Shifts in the electorate in 1964-68, 1980-84, and 1992-94 have seperated the traditional labor left into the pro-union Democratic workers, and those blue collar voters who have joined the Republican base.

If labor were somehow to reconcile, or people voted in their own economic interest instead of being led around by the nose with the fear issues, social wedge issues, etc used by the right to organize their base, then we would see a true Left coalition in the US, and the DNP would look more like the SPD.

by perdido619 on 10/13/2008 07:23:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
CDU & SPD (none / 0)
IMO

CDU: center-right
SPD: center-left

by callisto on 10/13/2008 05:37:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

Yep. In both cases, the emphasis is really on the center bit.

On the left (indeed the far left) we have the Left Party (the post-commies).

On the right, we just don't have anything. Except on the far-right, we've got the small extremist fringe DVU, NPD and such. But they're very much a marginal phenomenon and haven't ever got close to getting into the Bundestag (i.e. 5% of the national vote).

The GOP is more like the British Tories of the Thatcher era. On the Europoean continent, that brand of conservatism is rare. 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 05:50:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Still don't like Merkel :) (none / 0)
say did they cancel the Transrapid mavlev trains all together in Germany, a friend told me Merkel's government cancelled it or was it just one project?

by callisto on 10/13/2008 06:00:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

Well, actually, the Greens are the most anti-Transrapid. If anything, it's been a baby of the CDU. The Greens consider it a wasteful expenditure.

The SPD-Green government of Schröder really didn't support the project and only when the grand coalition was formed did things pick up again. 

Ah well, great technology. But really, Germany is too small for it. A pan-European network or one in bigger countries would be great though. 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 07:29:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Okay cred for Merkel then (none / 0)
Typical problem with the Greens, no futuristic  view, they mostly seem to want to go back to a simpler way of life, which the majority of the people don't want.

Investing in technologies of the future is the way to go, start reinventing stuff, start from scratch and come up with something better.

A pan-European network could effectively eliminate short haul flights within Europe with the added "green" effects as a bonus

by callisto on 10/13/2008 10:01:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

Very much so.

I think the Greens really tend to lose track of the big picture.

They opposed the Transrapid project (and plenty of high-speed rail tracks) as they cut through forests and such (though replanting is done in compensation).

They tend to be of the obstructionist environmentalist type, rather than the pro-tech environmentalist type.

Really, I think they're a rather old-fashioned bunch, stuck in the '68 generation's attitudes. 

by charlesf on 10/15/2008 01:16:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Never Fear (none / 0)
'You've got a really warped picture of German culture, I fear.'

You're full of shit, pal.

You and I both know that Germany has more than it's fair share of racism, especially regarding Turks.

Don't claim that there is no Right there or that the CDU is the party of the center. The CDU represents from the center to the Right, roughly the same spectrum that the GOP represents, as the SPD represents the center to the Left, both without the extremes. But more importantly, German Turks vote SPD in higher rates than African-Americans vote Democratic. Now, why is that Charles?

I knew that you were CDU immediately from this post. And I think that your maneuvering to portray the CDU as an analogue to the American Democratic Party is ridiculous. There is plenty of racism in Germany, and a good many of those people vote CDU, which is no friend to Turks in Germany. And Turks are an issue for many CDU, right?
 

And you vote CDU, don't you? Say it. Don't just try some apologist line like, "Oh, the CDU is liberal, like your Democratic Party." Bullshit.  Ask a Turk in Germany about the CDU.


I think that if more people on the forum understood the racism involved toward Turks in Germany, they would probably view this post as I do: racist.

Let me guess - you thought you would have a good laugh over posting this racist bullshit regarding the shows host, and that you would get away with it because Americans are ignorant of the political issues of other countries, right? And you're probably sending the link to your friends, right?

You are CDU, and I know exactly what this post is.



by perdido619 on 10/14/2008 12:38:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You're out of line (none / 0)

>You and I both know that Germany has more than it's fair share of racism, especially regarding Turks.

It's something like 20% who have overt or latently racist views, according to various polls I saw.

That's a typical level of a W European country. 

> German Turks vote SPD in higher rates than African-Americans vote Democratic. Now, why is that Charles?

Not true. Check your stats.

Why do they tend to vote for the SPD? Simple: The CDU is against Turkey joining the EU. Of course, for German Turks it's in their interest for Turkey to join. That's the main factor at work here.

> I knew that you were CDU immediately from this post.

Ridiculous. You know, racists in Germany tend to vote for the racist fringe or the Left Party. Typical voting pattern for low-information, disaffected and unemployed people. 

>And I think that your maneuvering to portray the CDU as an analogue to the American Democratic Party is ridiculous.

No. Look at the Clinton's administration's policies. His "third way" is far more like the CDU and indeed in plenty of instances to the right.

Just consider "Don't ask, don't tell." The CDU is very much against such discriminatory policies.

by charlesf on 10/15/2008 01:50:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
No Turks or no North Africans means... (none / 0)
you won't have decent kebab, pitta, durum, ... that's all I know :)

yeah, not that many Turks, Algerians, Moroccons, ... here in Prague, it just means I can hardly find decent kebab. thank jebus for the Afghan place :)

BUT just discovered a Moroccon butcher, who had some good meat, had me some great lamb chops.

and in 2 days off to Belgium, get me some good Maghreb food :)

by callisto on 10/13/2008 05:29:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

Nonsense.

The question came up in one of the shows. If you haven't noticed, the Youngturks is full of "racialist" banter. It's all in good spirit.

And if you recall that show I refer to, you'll know that Cenk ended up describing himself as "olive". An odd term he embraced there.

Much as you, I don't care what colour a person has. But I do find interesting how people perceive each other.

"Man, you're at a ten and you need to be at a 2.", to quote Cenk. Besides, it's really out of line insulting me as a Nazi. Shame on you. 

 

 

 

 

 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 05:15:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Voted olive, but that's white in my book (none / 0)
a year ago I would have voted white, but it's Cenk's remarks that made me vote olive :)

Arabs & Berbers (many of the people in Northern Africa) are caucasian/white as a race, but are brown as a complexion
Turks have a mildly different complexion, originally they migrated from Asia, but are still white, don't know where I would draw the line between white and asian, asian as in from the Far East (oriental).

Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Syberian, .... asian
Turks, Iraqi, Iranian, Pakistani, ... white
see what I mean

by callisto on 10/13/2008 05:16:46 PM EST

My take (none / 0)

Well, I think most of the Turkish ancestry is actually of old Asia Minor stock. Many Christian/Greek subjects of the Turks simply converted to Islam and then were considered Turkish (as opposed to being Greek or Armenian). As said, the line between Greeks and Turks was back then more of a religious nature.

To me, they're white. Much as Jews, Arabs, Kurds and Iranians.

"Olive" strikes me as an odd term born from discrimination against those which otherwise would be considered white.

 

 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 05:34:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Agree (none / 0)
"To me, they're white. Much as Jews, Arabs, Kurds and Iranians. "Olive" strikes me as an odd term born from discrimination against those which otherwise would be considered white."

like I said only used it because of Cenk and wouldn't use it outside of TYT :)

by callisto on 10/13/2008 05:47:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

Yeah, it's a TYT inside joke. And I understand your choice in that context.

Fortunately, we can discuss these things without name-calling. Too bad not everybody in this thread had the class for that.

The TYT audience just is of such a cosmopolitan nature that we can discuss these things in a relaxed and fun manner. TYTers aren't bigots (save for the odd troll - you know who I mean...). So we don't have to pussyfoot around "racialist" issues as one might have to in a different context.

Ah, I must say "racialist" is really a useful word. Much as "truthiness". Thanks, Cenk and Colbert, for your additions to the English language (it's them who invented them, no?) 

 

 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 05:57:37 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Nice piece of olive... bottoms :) (none / 0)


Atiye Deniz, a Turkish R&B singer

damn, where has the time gone, I'm still at Simarik from my man Tarkan :)

by callisto on 10/13/2008 05:33:09 PM EST

there is no race (none / 0)

from a biological standpoint there is no such thing as "race" - it's just a matter of perception. cenk might consider himself "olive" (so does my girlfriend and i'm told a lot of arabs do) but that doesn't mean anything in terms of race.

a "white/caucasian" might have more (DNA) in common with a black guy from kenya than he does with his redneck neighbor. so "race" is a social concept about your phenotype (your looks) and about your historical and cultural identiy. it has nothing to do with your genetic blueprint.

so i guess someone who considers turkish people to be european would also consider them white. if someone considers them arab, he would probably not.

by David Bakr on 10/13/2008 05:59:22 PM EST

My take (none / 0)

Exactly. Race is a matter of perception.

And that makes the question about Cenk interesting to me. I'm curious how other people perceive these things. 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 06:44:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There (none / 0)
There is more genetic difference between sexes than races.

by ihavenobias on 10/13/2008 09:33:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I beg to differ... (none / 0)

A race is defined as a group of people with a common genetic association (not necessarily a physical characteristic).

There is no biological relevance, however, of ethnicity, beyond traditional associations or concentrations of specific races and their relationships to ethnic or cultural groups. Ethnicity/Culture refers, of course, to the common, learned practices (be they social, religious, etc), shared (and passed on) by a group of people.

I want to acknowledge the American tradition of ignorance in the application of the associated racial or ethnic designations. However, there has generally been a reason for this (though not always a good one).

To clarify, let's look at some examples:

Example #1:

"Jewish" is NOT a race, it's a religion (sometimes with many cultural implications). "Ashkenazi Jew" is infact a racial designation. The racial classification is derived from the presence of significant genetic traits that are, in this case, medically significant, but not directly related to their religion.

Example #2:

"Hispanic/Latino" is NOT a race. Hispanic/latino is a cultural or ethnic designation. There are white, brown, black, and asian "hispanic/latino" people.

Example #3:

"Native American" (North American) is both a race and a culture.

The bottom line:

If you can learn it, teach it, or experience it, it's probably a cultural or ethnic component or characteristic. If it's physically part of you in some way, then more than likely it's a racial component.

"Objectivity lies not in balance, but in truth. And truth is more often than not unbalanced - slanted in favor of right, and against wrong." -Ed

by Ed on 10/14/2008 02:21:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]
i beg to differ... again (none / 0)
hi ed,

you argue that a race is defined by genetic association only, yet modern science defined the entire term "race" as obsolete. this dates back to charles darwin who said that the variance in humans is so great that it would be futile to try to define any "races". later, science showed e.g. that the genetic variance within the borders of japan is greater than comparing japan - australia.

so my point is, to let go of the term "race" and rather speak about populations. populations can differ on the variables and people can be attributed to different populations at the same time. again, the genetic variance within populations can be greater than the variance of people within geographical regions (see japan/australia example).

about your "jewish vs. ashkenazi jew" example: ashkenazi jews are descendends from jewish communities in germany, so it literally means "german jew". you are saying that "german jew" is a "race" by itself? you can't be serious!

to me, your "native american" example lacks sense in the same way, too.

by David Bakr on 10/14/2008 05:29:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll just differ this time (none / 0)

From Merriam Webster's Medical Dictionary:

Main Entry: race
Pronunciation: primarystressramacrs
Function: noun
1 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED
2 : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits

 

Although I agree that scientifically speaking it would be more appropriate to address a specific population or subpopulation, you must be aware that any comparison of variance is highly dependent on which specific trait you are discussing, the number of alleles contributing to that trait, and theit respective methods and rates of recombination.

You claim that "race" is obsolete because there is so much genetic variance to make relevant common connections. And I disagree.

If the genetic variance was great enough to make race irrelevant biologically, then specific diseases and disease-susceptibilities would not have higher prevalence rates in specific populations, and specifically populations with specific physical characteristics (regardless of their socio-economic or environmental factors).

We can have an intelligent discussion about what might be a more appropriate social approach to the labelling of people or groups. However the term race is what it is. It is not obselete, or non-sensical. It's right there in black and white. 

"Objectivity lies not in balance, but in truth. And truth is more often than not unbalanced - slanted in favor of right, and against wrong." -Ed

by Ed on 10/14/2008 11:48:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Where is the Jewish option? (none / 0)
Because in every poll like this someone has to think 'Jew.'   (ala that poll about Obama)

by jazzchic on 10/13/2008 05:59:49 PM EST

actually (none / 0)
although you're joking, aren't people of arab extraction considered semitic?

by hazmat on 10/13/2008 06:37:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
They make me put down white on the Census forms (none / 0)
I'm half Lebanese and half Palestinian but according to the US government i'm white.  I'm sure Cenk is the same way.

by s10129107 on 10/13/2008 06:01:49 PM EST

Doesn't that make you white? (none / 0)
what would you call yourself? Lebanese and Palestinians might not be lily ass white as me, but I would always call them white

by callisto on 10/13/2008 06:06:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm just saying (none / 0)
If i'm white so is Cenk.  I must say though, growing up my idea of white people were people who didnt have to deal with racism. 

by s10129107 on 10/13/2008 06:31:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My take (none / 0)

That's an interesting point.

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 06:47:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Jep, U & Cenk are those priviliged white dudes (none / 0)
you and Cenk are white, of course the neo-nazi crowd won't accep t you as white

but you're right in that way that lily ass whites don't have to deal with racism as more colorful minorities have to.
that said racism goes both ways, the difference is that the majority can inflict that racism upon the minorities.

by callisto on 10/13/2008 06:56:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I would vote (none / 1)

but there's no "Generically swarthy" choice.  All I know for sure is that I can't touch him without gloves on.

But the real question that needs to be asked is "Who is Cenk Uygur?"  Where you at mainstream media!?!

by Spencer on 10/13/2008 06:09:41 PM EST

Awesome (none / 0)
Best response.

PS---I think it's safe to say that about 80+ % of Americans would say Cenk is not "white", and rather is brown/olive.  After showing them a picture and asking them the few people who say "white" would then be given the name "Cenk Uygur" which would prompt 80% of the remaining 20% to say "never mind, brown/olive".

;)

by ihavenobias on 10/13/2008 09:45:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Daily Show (none / 0)

Did y'all see the Daily show a few days ago when John Oliver was interviewing the Iraqi Ambassador to the U.S. using a questionaire that sounded like a credit card application? He says, "Alright, Race: Black, or White?"

The ambassador is clearly thrown for a loop, but after thinking for a second says "White". "I'll put you down for Black" replies Oliver.

by hazmat on 10/13/2008 06:17:57 PM EST

My take (none / 0)

I saw that too.

In fact, it prompted me to post this thread since both John Oliver's interview and Cenk's take on being "olive" are about racial perceptions. 

by charlesf on 10/13/2008 06:49:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
jalapeno-stuffed olive (none / 0)
Cenk is HOT.

by desertpear on 10/13/2008 06:18:43 PM EST

None of the above... (none / 0)

Cenk is an AMERICAN!

"Objectivity lies not in balance, but in truth. And truth is more often than not unbalanced - slanted in favor of right, and against wrong." -Ed

by Ed on 10/14/2008 12:15:21 AM EST

VERY IMPORTANT (none / 0)

Wow... uncovering cenk's color... really important... (sacarsm)

 its not like he's a chameleon.....

 

NEXT!! 

by India on 10/14/2008 06:10:21 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm the chameleon (none / 0)

White in the winter, olive in the summer, mostly Hispanic. I usually check Hispanic or Other when asked about race. If it's a fill-in-the-blank, I put 'yes'.

I don't think it's important, but if it gets our son a scholarship, even though in my case Hispanic means Spain and Portugal, along with Cuba, Costa Rica, El Salvador and Panama, why not play the game!

Turks come in many shades of pale through tan, much like Greeks.

by zenie on 10/14/2008 12:03:31 PM EST

Is Cenk white, brown or olive? | 56 comments (56 topical, 0 hidden)
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