Democrats Who Voted Against Auto Maker Bailout


The House of Representatives today approved a bill to help bailout the Big 3 domestic automakers. The bill passed 230-170. According to the article in the Associated Press, 20 Democrats voted against the bill.  I was wondering where those 20 are from, so I did the research.  All the Democrats who voted against were from Western or Southern states - no northerners. The obvious conclusion (which everybody knew already, I know) is that this was a regional vote.  Anyway, the big battle is in the Senate.  It makes me sick that I am tending to agree with the Republicans who are standing up for the right thing for a change (although for the wrong reasons, I'm sure).

Arizona - 2
New Mexico - 2
California - 3
Georgia - 1
West Virginia - 1
North Carolina - 3
Mississippi - 1
Utah - 1
South Dakota - 1
Tennessee - 1
Florida - 1
Wisconsin - 1
Texas - 1
Alabama - 1

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article that sorta relates ..

"I have a question for all those working-class Democrats - especially the ones employed directly or indirectly by the U.S. auto industry - who in the 80s became so-called "Reagan Democrats" and voted Republican for the next twenty years.

The question is this: Given the "fuck you" attitude being contemptuously displayed by Senate Republicans where it concerns a rescue plan for your industry, your job, your life, how do you feel now about your abandonment of the Democratic Party?

Huh? Got an answer? Nothing deep. Just a quick sentence or two would do. I mean, how does it feel to have spent all those years voting your bigotry and your willful political ignorance and your sheep-like need to be manipulated by the thugs who infest right-wing talk radio, and now that your whole life is collapsing because of the policies of these Republicans (who never gave a shit about you anyway) you get to watch and listen as they kick you and your family to the curb and say, naw, we don't think the "taxpayers" wanna bail out the auto industry; we don't care if another three or four million more families head for the homeless shelters and food stamp offices.

Seriously. I'm just curious. Because, you know, there were a whole clutch of us on the near left (we were called liberals) who warned about this happening; who screamed and beat our fists on the floor for years and said to our fellow Democrats, don't be fooled, don't buy the lies, stay in the Democratic Party, fight for your rights, your families, your jobs. If the Democratic Party need reforming, stay and do it. Don't get sucked into the abyss created by Republicans who want to see you and your kids and your spouses and your dreams shredded, ripped to pieces by their insatiable greed and their hot-blooded insistence on turning this country hard right, neofascist, ugly, divided.

And, so, here we are today, right? While you are being eaten alive with anxiety and fear and uncertainty about the immediate future, a bunch of these slimy, stinking Republicans are refusing to allocate a miserable 15 billion - the cost of a few of weeks of death and destruction in Iraq - in an attempt put together by those Democrats you willingly abandoned in the 80s to save your industry. Arrogant bottom-feeders like Alabama Senator Richard Shelby, sounding like he had a mouthful of grits and boiled owl shit, tells the press, naw, he ain't goin' along with no bail-out plan cuz then whut? Those boys'll jest be back with their hands out next March and our beloved taxpayers ain't gonna go fer this.

Jesus god. How do you do it? How do you support these right-wing vermin election after election? How many times do they have to bleed you dry before you realize their game? What are you getting in return? Laws that stop the queers from getting married? Bullshit talk about the sanctity of marriage? Phony-ass tax cuts that never, ever benefit you? The right to stop a woman from getting an abortion if she feels it's necessary? What in god's name is it?

Well, never mind. Don't answer. Don't waste the energy you're going to need in figuring out how you're going to survive in an economy that was designed in the Reagan years to utterly bankrupt every single social safety net put in place over the last 75 years. They're nearly all gone now. Soon to be completely useless. Bankrupt. Empty. So . . . how does it feel? Are you satisfied? Happy? Feel like your team won?

Just asking."

- MDM

Republicans portray the government as the enemy. Then when they take over, they prove it.

by Chinese Democracy on 12/11/2008 07:53:03 AM EST

"It makes me sick that I am tending to agree with the Republicans who are standing up for the right thing for a change (although for the wrong reasons, I'm sure)."

Dave, I listened to you explain your "reasons" on the day you hosted TYT in Cenk's absence. You said you just wanted the automakers to go bankrupt because you just wanted to see what happens next. That's kinda funny, but our "reasons" are slightly different.

There are many successful car plants operating in the U.S. They are anti-union shops, located in the South.

The U.S. automakers need to file bankruptcy, and dissolve the UAW contracts. Only then, can they start to rebuild a healthy industry.

Here's a recent KenTX post, explaining the situation in simple terms.

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 10:25:58 AM EST

explaining it in simple terms for the troll

Unions did not force GM to make hummers when Toyota was making the Prius.

Conservatives like kkkenTX like to say how well Toyota is doing but Toyota, in fact, has seen its stock drop more than 50 percent since the beginning of the year.

Toyota in case conservatives forget is a Japanese car company.. the gov of Japan supports their car companies as well as removes the burden of paying for health care that American car companies have to pay.

According to KkKenTx logic the really big mistake the American car companies made was keeping Americans working.. they should have moved everything off shore like has happened in just about every other industry.

Republicans portray the government as the enemy. Then when they take over, they prove it.

by Chinese Democracy on 12/11/2008 10:39:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Japanese car makers provide health care to all of their American employees, just like American carmakers. The difference is that Japanese carmakers don't hire big fat UAW Thugs who are paid $70 per hour for turning a nut on an assembly line. Toyota's stock jumped today, on news that Democrats will bailout the UAW, and maintain the status quo.

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 01:30:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
That American auto makers make 70 dollars an hr

Republicans portray the government as the enemy. Then when they take over, they prove it.

by Chinese Democracy on 12/11/2008 02:29:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Lets talk about imports ..KKKenTX thinks they are doing so great

"Gleaming new Mercedes cars roll one by one out of a huge container ship here and onto a pier. Ordinarily the cars would be loaded on trucks within hours, destined for dealerships around the country. But these are not ordinary times.

For now, the port itself is the destination. Unwelcome by dealers and buyers, thousands of cars worth tens of millions of dollars are being warehoused on increasingly crowded port property.

And for the first time, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, and Nissan have each asked to lease space from the port for these orphan vehicles. They are turning dozens of acres of the nation's second-largest container port into a parking lot, creating a vivid picture of a paralyzed auto business and an economy in peril."

He would of course  be wrong

Lets talk about the KKKenTX debunked 70 dollars an hr bull shit

"The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

The reason the US and Japanese companies have different total costs for their American workers?  The US companies have been employing American workers for almost a hundred years.  They have a lot of retirees.  Most of the Japanese auto plants in the US are less than 20 years old.  They have almost no retirees, so their costs are only for active workers.  "

and again KKKentx would be wrong

Lets talk about why the brain dead parrot is even posting  that debunked bull shit to begin with.

The easy answer is because Rush Limbaugh told him to..  but why is Limbaugh using false numbers?

"First, it demonizes unions and their members as greedy and not interested in the long-term health and profitability of the corporations with which they sign contracts.  It also ignores the fact that in 2007 the UAW signed a landmark contract in which they assumed future responsibility for healthcare for their members employed by the Big Three.  The auto companies paid in to a fund, which will be administered by the UAW.  Over the long haul, this is expected to radically decrease the auto companies' legacy costs (although the best way to help company and union is to pass national health care).  

Making false claims inflating the earnings of unionized workers is also part of the Republicans' long-held practice of class warfare.  It's intended to gin up envy and disgust at people making a good hourly wage.  Few people would be unsympathetic to an auto worker for making $58,000 per year.  But more would feel unsympathetic if they thought that same auto worker made $73 per hour, which over the course of a year is over $150,000.  

Finally, harping on imaginary and inflated wages for workers is a way to distract from one of the big problems with the US auto companies (and most US corporations in any sector): executive compensation.  For instance, in 2007 General Motors CEO Rick Waggoner made close to $20 million in total compensation.  

Are you surprised that conservatives are playing with math to come up with the false figure of $73 per hour for UAW members working at the Big Three, while saying nothing about a Big Three CEO making $9,500.00 per hour?"

I didnt bother typing much, trolls arent really worth it and all KenTroll does is parrot someone elses horse shit anyway. There is so much info on the net to debunk KKKenTX .  I found most of the above right at Daily Kos.

The truth is a mean bitch and she is wearing a 10 inch dildo  Ken Troll.

Republicans portray the government as the enemy. Then when they take over, they prove it.

by Chinese Democracy on 12/11/2008 02:51:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
What Ken fails to include in his Oh So Glorious Praise of foreign companies profiting from doing business in our country is that is helps just a teeny weenie tiny bit that they are rewarded huge incentives in the form of tax breaks to build in some states.

My home State of Alabama gave Mercedes Benz a $900 million tax break to build there. I’m curious if Ken would concede that that might help curb some of the added cost of providing health care for the nearly 4000 workers employed at the factory?

Of course the economic impact is good for the citizens of Alabama, but the reality is that the tax burden is shifted back to the middle class, so ultimately we are providing yet another form of Corporate Welfare to big business.

The reality is that foreign non union companies pay only slightly less than their union counterparts, they have comparable benefits packages. The big difference is in retirement packages (union workers have a better retirement plan), and of course the established plants have to pay taxes unless they close the plant and move it to another state that offers to stick its residents with the tax burden in exchange for the jobs.

Ken’s over simplistic view of just blaming Unions, and their overpaid screw turners demonstrates a bumper sticker mentality and I know he actually knows better.

Coming up next on Bumper Sticker talking points Ken demonstrates how the $10 TRILLION National Debt was all caused by Tax and Spend Democrats.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/11/2008 03:29:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The Detroit Mafia Workers Union actually earn $75 per hour in wages and benefits.

By contrast, the Tuscaloosa Anti-Union Double-Wide Dwellers earn about $45 per hour in wages and benefits.

“Over decades of contentious relations with the Big Three, the UAW was tagged with a reputation as a combative union whose members enjoyed high wages and gold-plated benefits yet were less productive than nonunion workers. The Big Three paid UAW members about $75 an hour in wages, compared with $45 an hour or less for non-U.S. auto makers. Also, quality problems at GM, Ford and Chrysler and the "jobs bank" program -- under which UAW workers were paid even when they were laid off and didn't have to report to work -- reinforced this poor image.”

I’m quite certain that AL, MS, TX, SC, TN would offer U.S. automakers equivalent incentive to relocate plants down South.

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 04:05:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]

That $70 an hour number has been debunked a million ways from Sunday. They even had a segment about it on the TYT show.

That number is BS. Get with the program and keep up on current events

by z1p101 on 12/11/2008 04:15:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Are you willing to go on record and make the assertion that auto workers in the South earn equivalent wages and benefits to UAW auto workers in Detroit?

That's a straight up challenge, requiring simply a "YES" or "NO" in response.

I am awaiting your reply.

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 04:24:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Your $70 an hour number has been debunked.

I don't know what is happening in Detroit but our local UAW workers took a 1/3 pay cut a few months ago and they are still getting laid off as we speak.

That is because no one wants to buy those damn Jeeps.

Imagine that.

by z1p101 on 12/11/2008 04:33:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
He knows damn well that non-union auto workers in the South earn much less than UAW workers in Detroit, regardless of the exact numbers. Its why Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mercedes, BMW build new car plants down South, and not in the Rust Belt. Unions are choking the life out of American Manufacturing, and these facts are indisputable. Run away Zippy, run away!

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 05:09:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Where are your sources for these "indisputable claims" you make aside from the crap that spews from your mouth?  As of right now, Ken, your claims are not valid until proven otherwise.

by murphytrix on 12/11/2008 05:18:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You will find that I'm always happy to provide sources and links, like this one.

If you want to dispute the fact that UAW workers in Michigan earn much more than non-UAW workers down South, it will be my pleasure to wear you down with sources until you beg me for mercy.

Would you like to challenge me?

I want to take this time to welcome you to TYT. I've grown bored with smacking Zippy around all the time, and you seem like a good candidate for my new huckleberry.

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 07:43:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There is a difference between "labor cost" and "salary".

I refer you to my previous post.

You just keep thinkin' Butch. That's what you're good at.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/11/2008 07:56:24 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Do you really want to get into a pissing contest over UAW labor cost versus Tuscaloosa, AL labor cost?

You know better than that.

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 08:04:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There is absolutely NO argument that "labor cost" in Tuscaloosa are much less than in Detroit.

YOU wrote

The difference is that Japanese carmakers don't hire big fat UAW Thugs who are paid $70 per hour for turning a nut on an assembly line. Toyota's stock jumped today, on news that Democrats will bailout the UAW, and maintain the status quo.

That is just not true and you know it.

YOU wrote

The Detroit Mafia Workers Union actually earn $75 per hour in wages and benefits.

Again not true and you know it.

YOU wrote

He knows damn well that non-union auto workers in the South earn much less than UAW workers in Detroit, regardless of the exact numbers.

Again not true and you know it. I even gave the link to show you the error of your statement.

YOU wrote

If you want to dispute the fact that UAW workers in Michigan earn much more than non-UAW workers down South, it will be my pleasure to wear you down with sources until you beg me for mercy.

Would you like to challenge me?

Although the question was aimed at someone else I am challenging you, and as I have clearly demonstrated  "wages" are not that disparate, and when "cost of living" is accounted for it could be argued Non-Union factories in the South actually make out better in actual buying power. It's long term benefits that cause my concern.
Now if you want to discuss "labor cost", again as has been pointed out the $70-$75 figure is what it cost the company in health care for current and RETIRED employees as well as retirement benefits.

Of course the shops in the South don't have generations of retired employees that it contracted to provide for, and when you look at the "retirement" package they do offer in the long term the employees of the "NEW" car makers get left out to dry.

It's simple math really. If you have 1 employee who is working and you provide benefits to, and 1 who is retired that you provide benefits to then the "labor cost" is twice what the active labor force is. It doesn't mean that the 1 guy who is working is getting ALL the benefits.
The shops in the South don't have to worry about it because they really don't care about "retirement" or taking care of loyal employees after they leave the company.

Ken just because I have been inactive for awhile doesn't mean I can't still put together a sentence or two.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/11/2008 08:40:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
because I'm typing with one thumb while driving on curvy KY roads. I am 100% correct on every statement regarding total compensation package disparity. UAW guys receive expensive pensions payouts, which are unheard of in today's economy. Southern auto workers receive 401K benefits, which are much less costly to the employer. But there is no way for you to deny that unions are destroying the manufacturing base with unrealistic compensation packages. I'm against the bailout, because I'm against what the UAW has done to American competitiveness.

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 10:32:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I haven't said anything pro or con about the bail out, I'm only challenging you on your statements. The bailout is a entirely different conversation.

Blaming the Unions for the failure of the Big Three is as silly as me blaming Alabama's loss to Florida on a stupid 15 yard face mask penalty that kept a 4th quarter drive alive to put them ahead.

Both are simplistic views, although my contention about the Tide is more realistic than your just blame the Unions argument, but I admit I'm biased when it comes to Bama.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/11/2008 11:45:34 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The Sooners will get even with the Gators for you, even though:

1. Bradford's throwing thumb is hurt.
2. Home game for Gators.
3. Oklahoma has a record of blowing the big game.
4. Tim Tebow.
5. Gators are favored.
6. I'm the only guy who is saying OU will win.

by KenTX on 12/12/2008 02:40:59 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I wanted to use this clip to trickfuck Zippy or Tiny or Murphy. Unfortunately, they wisely gave up on the thread when it became a debate on UAW compensation versus Alabama non-union compensation. That means that you're the only remaining opposition. Man, I sure do hate bustin a cap on ya like this. Makes me feel bad.

by KenTX on 12/12/2008 03:49:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]
What I see is Republicans using another straw man to try and bust the Unions.

The good Senator is either lying or misinformed when he says that they are trying to bring wages down to Toyota levels.

Again I offer

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

Did you notice that Toyota ACTUALLY makes more than GM?

How do you propose to bring "WAGES" down to a level that they already are?

"Wages" and "labor cost" or NOT the same thing.

As I have previously stated and this article reiterates it's Labor Cost not Wages that is the problem.

Reducing wages by a few bucks is not going to solve the problem.

Of course Republicans will do anything to destroy the Unions even destroy our economy, because after all without the Unions who will actually protect the workers.

Sorry Ken some Senator pontificating about how it's the workers fault that Republicans won't step is does NOT make for TRUTH, it's just more SPIN to promote their anti-Union agenda. 

Again you are trying to change the conversation, Wages, and Compensation ARE NOT the same as labor cost.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/12/2008 07:48:47 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Zippy: "It is time for you to say "No, UAW workers don't make $70 dollars an hour because Zippy once again debunked my Limbaugh talking point."

Hubble: "GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses."

I am prepared to admit that Zippy might be correct. Maybe it's $69 rather than $70?

Did you guys notice that the auto bailout failed because Detroit UAW workers are compensated much higher than non-union auto workers in the South? Did you notice that's exactly the point I've been making on this board all week? Did you notice Tiny gave up on this thread? Did you notice Murphy gave up on this thread? Did you notice Zippy gave up on this thread?

This is one of those priceless threads that I can bring back at some convenient future date and clobber you guys with. I'm happy.

by KenTX on 12/12/2008 03:31:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
There is a HUGE difference between "labor cost" and "wages".

Zippy gets it, I get it, and I'm sure after spending this much time and energy even the Village Idiot from Crawford would get it, so why do you feign ignorance and keep confusing the two?

Funny after years of mismanaging the industry, not building cars that will sell long term, and Multimillion dollar salaries for top management who spend time cruising the country in their corporate owned jets, it's the Unions fault the industry is in trouble. Yeah sure that's it!

All those brilliant executive decisions would have worked if only the Unions weren't allowed to exist. Yep I'm sure that's the problem.

Well Unions and OF COURRRRRRRRSE Tax and Spend Democrats. I'm sure we can somehow work Bill Clinton into the equation if we try because ultimately in Kenland Clinton is the root of all evil.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/12/2008 03:48:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
GM's total hourly labor cost per employee, which includes the total UAW compensation package, is in the area of $70 per hour. I'm compensated in a similar manner with salary + car + 401K + health care + other benefits. Everybody knows what a compensation package is, because everyone receives one. According to Dick Durbin, who negotiated the bail out plan for Democrats, Detroit UAW workers are paid much more than auto workers in the South, and they refused concessions, so the deal broke down. You can continue to feign ignorance that you don't know what Durbin is talking about, or you can flat out admit ignorance. Either way, I have a lot of time for this thread, because I'm starting to really enjoy it. Look for more well documented facts comparing Alabama compensation versus UAW compensation.

by KenTX on 12/12/2008 05:13:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]

First look into Spring Hill Tennessee. They tried and failed because of poor management.

Second

"Everybody knows what a compensation package is, because everyone receives one."

What planet do you live on? Oh yea, that's right. Your entire life you have worked for your Dad or have had jobs that your Dad has found for you and you are also from Texas.

You are a lot like W in that respect. That explains why you go out out of your way to defend the worst president our country has ever known.

by z1p101 on 12/12/2008 06:15:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
(Except W is not from Texas.  But I'm sure it will come to light that Ken is actually from Connecticut, thereby completing the analogy.)

by OneHitKill on 12/12/2008 06:59:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You guys think you have knowledge on my background, but you only know what I've told you, which is scant data by design. Actually , Jesse knows more about me than anyone, and that's because he hacked my family tree. I enjoy watching zippy try to figure out where I played football and how much money I have and how I'm affiliated with the GOP. Here's a little hint about my Dad's business. He sells directly to business owners, and all of them hate Barack Obama. If it ever gets out that I punk slap liberals on a daily basis, I will be a hero in the industry, so there's not much downside risk. I know many very wealthy people and they all have one thing in common. They hate Democrats' guts. So I guess I could get into trouble for being nice to you guys.

by KenTX on 12/12/2008 09:03:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Let's get out facts straight,

1. I could care less where you played football. I grew up a long time ago.

2. I know you work for your Dad because you have said so.

3. I'm assuming you make a decent amount of money because that is what you tell us all the time.

4. How are you affiliated with the GOP? Who cares.

5. I suggest you mention this board to your Dad's clients so they can (snicker) witness all this (snicker) punk slapping that you do.

by z1p101 on 12/13/2008 04:44:59 AM EST

[ Parent ]
but I have reported that I know an illegal alien who speaks very little English, yet earns a very respectable income by cutting grass and not paying taxes.

by KenTX on 12/13/2008 05:18:18 AM EST

[ Parent ]
What part of the articles that I have linked showing that "UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle."

Or

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

So now that we are talking about "compensation packages" your argument is even weaker.

When you wrote The Detroit Mafia Workers Union actually earn $75 per hour in wages and benefits. That isn't true. The individual worker doesn't EARN $75 in benefits and wages.

What is true is that LABOR COST which include retirees insurance and retirement pay is close to $70 (not your $75) per hour.

Take away the cost of retiree insurance and watch that figure drop dramatically.

UAW employees WAGES as has been demonstrated repeatedly are only SLIGHTLY higher than non union shops.

Keep on moving the topic Ken, and with all your facts and figures I'm betting that I can match them.

This just keeps getting sillier and sillier with you changing the wording, but you just keep on spinning Ken.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/12/2008 08:51:41 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I want to keep this thread going as long as possible. Hubble and Zippy have only two choices: concede or run away.

You’ll remember that Hubble focused on wages at a Toyota plant in Georgetown, Kentucky. He selected this plant because it represented an extreme outlier in terms of high salaries. Here are the details from the SF Chronicle.

“Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.”

That’s a typical tactic that Hubble employs. He selects the most extreme example, and then tries to pass it off as the rule rather than the exception. Fortunately, the recent debate over UAW concessions is forcing auto worker wage and benefits to the surface. The press is conveniently doing the work for me.

Hubble and Zippy have already conceded that total compensation packages for UAW workers far exceed those of “Japanese transplants” like Nissan, Toyota, Honda.

Now we find that comparative wages for UAW workers significantly exceed those of “Japanese transplants” like Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai.

From Automotive News Europe
“There are currently pay differences even between the U.S. auto plants owned by Toyota. Toyota workers in Georgetown, Kentucky, earn $27-$30 an hour, similar to the hourly wages of UAW workers in Michigan.
But vexed by the rise of lower-wage competitors, including Hyundai Motor in Montgomery, Alabama, and Nissan Motor in Canton, Mississippi, Toyota has been on a campaign to establish new plants that can pay lower hourly rates than its more-established U.S. plants.
Starting wages for workers at Toyota's San Antonio Tundra pickup plant, which opened in 2006, began at $15.50 an hour and are scheduled to grow to $21 an hour in 2009. And assembly workers at the company's planned Prius factory near Tupelo, Mississippi, are expected to earn $20 an hour when it opens in 2010. Yet Toyota's Corolla-Tacoma plant in Fremont, California, is a UAW-represented joint-venture with General Motors that pays national UAW rates.
The nonunion transplants' decade-long efforts to reduce their wages further marks a reversal of their earlier practices.
Since they first arrived here in the early 1980s, the Japanese transplants made an effort to pay workers at levels that were close to -- but just under – UAW wages.
As a result, union organizers were repeatedly stymied in their efforts to convince well-paid nonunion workers at Honda Motor Co.'s plant in Marysville, Ohio, and at Nissan's operations in Smyrna, Tenn., that the union could help them.
In recent years, that wage gap has widened.
Hyundai made a point of paying less than Toyota, Honda and Nissan when it entered Alabama in 2002. Its sister company, Kia Motors Co., is now hiring workers for a new assembly plant in rural west Georgia to start at $14.90 an hour.
This summer, Nissan North America offered employee buyout to hundreds of workers at two Tennessee vehicle and engine plants. Nissan has not said what it plans to do with its Tennessee workforce in the future. But by reducing the headcount of more senior employees, Nissan now has the option of hiring new workers at lower starting salaries in the future.
Last month, Honda opened a new car plant in Greensburg, Ind., where workers are starting at $14.84 an hour.”

by KenTX on 12/13/2008 12:00:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]

However, you are doing a perfect job making an ass out of yourself and Hubble is doing a perfect job pointing that out.

Why would I want to mess with perfection?

by z1p101 on 12/12/2008 04:31:51 PM EST

[ Parent ]
In the future, whenever the subject is the cancer of American Unions, I will simply pull up this data, and destroy your argument.

Move along now, loser.

by KenTX on 12/13/2008 12:12:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]

You have yet to produce the guy who makes $70 an hour and that was my original point. It can be seen here if you need to read it again.

If you want to change the subject mid stream again then that is your problem.

by z1p101 on 12/13/2008 05:03:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"I have clearly demonstrated  "wages" are not that disparate."

You selected a single Toyota plant in Kentucky, and ignored total compensation package disparity.

When I presented data from other Japanese facilities operating in America, your point was soundly defeated.

The time has come for you to walk off the field, just like the Crimson Tide.

by KenTX on 12/13/2008 12:07:33 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Your $70 an hour number is debunked.

It is time for you to say "No, UAW workers don't make $70 dollars an hour because Zippy once again debunked my Limbaugh talking point."

Then I will explain to you the simple idea of the Kaizen and what comes with that and how it relates to GM, Ford and Chrysler.

The Kaizen is not something you learn working for the UAW or your Dad.

by z1p101 on 12/11/2008 05:41:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I get bored with kicking liberal ass in this forum with such ease. It’s really no challenge at all. So in the future, I will invite liberal thinkers to provide evidence that completely kicks the asses of the junior liberal wannabees in this forum. Its more effective and humorous when the ass kicking comes from one of your own.

Today’s installment comes from Jonathan Cutler, associate professor of sociology at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Conn. He is the author of “Labor’s Time: Shorter Hours, the UAW, and the Struggle for American Unionism.”

Please sit back and enjoy, as Jonathan totally destroys the assertions of Zippy, Tiny, Richard, Murphy that the high wages of UAW union thugs are not responsible for making the Big Three noncompetitive with foreign automakers with facilities in the South. (I leave Hubble out of this, because he was smart enough to recognize that once again, I was setting you guys up like ten bowling pens!)

Please don’t hate me for what happens next. Remember, I didn’t do it. A liberal guy did it.

“The Big Three automakers are a mess, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Washington, D.C., lawmakers pondering the bailout for Detroit have been grilling executives of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler about their role in the crisis. But sitting by their side Thursday on Capitol Hill was Ron Gettelfinger, president of the United Auto Workers.

Even if a deal for a $15-billion to $17-billion preliminary bailout comes together to keep carmakers afloat into 2009, they will continue to be dogged by their most significant competitive disadvantage: a high-priced, unionized workforce. After all, hasn’t it always been the central goal of labor unions to maximize the per capita wage bill — including medical and retirement benefits — paid out to its membership? Maybe the UAW is too good at what it does.

It seemed clear that Congress would insist on cutting labor costs. Gettelfinger has coughed up concessions on job-security protections, delayed payment to a retiree health-care trust and is talking about modifying contracts.

Yet there is nothing inherently unsustainable about employing a high-priced, unionized workforce. The crisis of Detroit’s wage bill is entirely relative.

Their labor costs far exceed the low-cost, nonunion workforce at the U.S.-based, foreign-owned plants of competitors Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Subaru.

If the UAW is to blame at all, it is because of its utter failure to unionize any of the transplants.

Isn’t it any good union’s responsibility to protect union employers from competitive labor disadvantages by organizing wall to wall, throughout the industry? How could it have left these transplants unorganized?

As is now clear, when the UAW exposed the Big Three to insurmountable competitive disadvantages, it cut its own throat.

Perhaps these accusations seem overly harsh. After all, aren’t most of the transplants located in the right-to-work states of the Deep South? This hardly explains why the UAW failed to organize the first Honda transplant — in Ohio, right in the heart of the industrial Midwest.

Is transplant management the difference? According to the prevailing wisdom, Japanese auto companies neither trust nor understand the American notion of labor unionism. Ah, but these companies have always confronted a unionized workforce at home, organized by the Japanese Automobile Workers Confederation.

The UAW never established an alliance with the Confederation. Yet the UAW leadership knew plenty about the Japanese labor movement.

As David Halberstam noted in his 1986 book, “The Reckoning,” the leader of the Japanese Automobile Workers Confederation, Ichiro Shioji, spent a year at Harvard in 1960, then spent a summer at the UAW headquarters in Detroit.

He befriended all the major UAW leaders, including Walter Reuther, Leonard Woodcock and Douglas Fraser.

Nor were UAW leaders unfamiliar with Japan. In 1980, Fraser, fresh off helping Chrysler secure its 1979 bailout, spent a week there talking with major Japanese car companies about building plants in the United States. Just before embarking on his trip, Fraser told a UAW convention that he would demand “that foreign companies that benefit from our markets contribute to them by building products here.” In a gesture of bravado that today seems almost suicidal, Fraser declared, “The U.S. market needs the discipline of foreign competition.”

In Japan, when companies were contemplating overseas transplants in the early ’80s, Shioji held a de facto right to approve or disapprove the plans. He resisted efforts by Nissan to establish transplants in Britain, and the Financial Times reported: “Nissan probably could not go ahead in Britain without Shioji’s backing (because) the union would have to approve the transfer to the U.K. of key production staff.”

In the end, Shioji pushed for establishing Japanese transplants in the United States. It is for students of Japanese labor to explain why he refused to protect his own union members from the threat of nonunion labor here. But for students of American labor, the question is whether the UAW asked its good friend Shioji to use his leverage in solidarity with American workers.

It is not too late to save the Big Three. But the solution is not to tear down the historic and heroic gains won by previous generations of UAW workers.

If there is hope long term — for the unionized Big Three companies and for the UAW — it rests in dealing with the unfinished business: unionizing unorganized transplants.”

by KenTX on 12/11/2008 07:33:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle.

The UAW is losing its edge in pay compared with non-unionized U.S. assembly plant workers for foreign companies, even as Detroit automakers aim for deeper benefit cuts to trim their losses.

In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. are not far behind Toyota and UAW pay levels. Comparable wages have long been one way foreign companies fight off UAW organizing efforts.

But Toyota workers' pay topping that of UAW members comes as the union faces contract negotiations this year with struggling Detroit companies that will seek billions in concessions, partly because they face higher costs for retiree health care and pensions than their foreign-owned competitors.

Oh my! How could that be? It's still all the overpaid union workers fault.

It couldn't be that while the Big Three were trying to reward their employees with a retirement package to insure that their loyal workers could retire with something more than Social Security the Non-American companies offer a 401K and a thank you note and we all know how 401K investments are doing don't we.

Funny how a loyal American can be a bigger fan of foreign businesses operating with incentives the Big Three don't have in his country than he is of the ones that actually helped to build the greatest economy the world has ever seen.

Once again the Republican answer is blame the workers and then preach throwing the baby out with the bath water.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/11/2008 07:42:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]

and doesn't even come CLOSE to $70 an hour including benefits, but I'm sure your Murdoch paper is right and your average joe auto worker makes $75.

No one is buying it, but please keep demonizing the most celebrated American industry, keep smearing a President-Elect with a 70%+ popularity rating with ridiculous guilt by association attacks, and keep backing Sarah Palin.  We will all enjoy watching Republicans destroy their own party.

"The eyelid is a joke"

by richardshort2001 on 12/11/2008 05:37:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm demonizing the fat union thugs who destroyed it.

by KenTX on 12/12/2008 01:49:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
an ignoramus that is proud that you don't make shit as a security guard because you are not in a union and you think the Wal Martization of America is a good thing? Or is that what you really think?

Republicans portray the government as the enemy. Then when they take over, they prove it.

by Chinese Democracy on 12/12/2008 08:47:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
because you will see it many more times in the future.

Union workers are like parasites that eventually kill the host organism they live off. They have destroyed the Big Three Automakers, just like they destroyed other American industries.

This country cannot survive the economic damage that unions do to global competitiveness.
try to get your brain around this

by KenTX on 12/13/2008 12:23:27 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I love when you declare victory.

The truth is I have had one adult beverage too many to respond, but I'll be back to demonstrate the error of your contention, unless Zippy wants to take up the mantle, but you aren't even close to winning.

This reminds me of the Geico commercial with Martina Navratilova and the cave man where the cave man hasn't even scored a point but is convinced he's winning.

Until then

You just keep thinkin' Butch. That's what you're good at.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/13/2008 01:02:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
So is the narrative. Here are the paragraphs you should focus on:

Since they first arrived here in the early 1980s, the Japanese transplants made an effort to pay workers at levels that were close to -- but just under – UAW wages. As a result, union organizers were repeatedly stymied in their efforts to convince well-paid nonunion workers at Honda Motor Co.'s plant in Marysville, Ohio, and at Nissan's operations in Smyrna, Tenn., that the union could help them.

The nonunion transplants' decade-long efforts to reduce their wages further marks a reversal of their earlier practices. In recent years, that wage gap has widened.

Hello Hubble? Do you understand? Intially, the Japanese transplants paid workers wages that were comparable to union workers at the UAW plants, so they could cook the frog slowly (so the frog didn't know he was getting cooked).

Recently, they've started paying something closer to WalMart wages to the redneck auto workers down South. That's because the workers are screwing bumpers onto freakin' cars! It ain't exactly brain surgery!

by KenTX on 12/13/2008 03:00:34 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes Ken I understand that despite showing how WAGES are still comparable you take a single line in an article and declare victory.


I understand that as a anti-union guy you seem to be applauding the tactics of the non-union shops of trying to reduce the salaries of workers as the profits of these companies go up.


I understand that we can keep switching the words around from labor cost to wage and benefits, to compensation package, too whatever comes next, but comparing newer foreign owned factories with huge tax incentives and without the cost of providing insurance and retirement benefits for retirees to American companies that do have those added cost is silly.

Have I gotten anything wrong here?

I'm not a fan of the bailout but your blaming the Unions for the mismanagement of the Auto industry is almost as silly as blaming a hooker you pay for services rendered for making you commit adultery.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/14/2008 08:30:47 AM EST

[ Parent ]
"I understand that as a anti-union guy you seem to be applauding the tactics of the non-union shops of trying to reduce the salaries of workers as the profits of these companies go up."
Reducing the salaries of workers is the best way to increase profits.
Toyota and GM sold basically the same number of autos in 2007, but the figures are revealing:

GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles

GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)


So why the big difference?

For sure it's complicated, but do union wages have anything to do with it?

Might it have something to do with the fact the Big 3 spend about $73 for every hour of unionized work?

It's true the Big 3 spend $73 an hour for unionized labor, but it doesn't all go to the workers pocket. It breaks down like this:

Cash: All the basics -- wages, overtime and vacation pay -- add up to $40 an hour.

Extras: Health insurance and pension costs total about $15 an hour.

Retiree benefits: These are fixed costs, and the Big Three have a huge pool of retirees out there, Leonhardt writes. They add up to about $15 an hour.

So the true hourly salary for a union worker is about $55. But that's still about twice what the typical American worker makes. And it's about $10 more than what a non unionized worker at Honda or Toyota makes. And it's about $20 more than what a non unionized worker at Kia or Hyundai makes.

by KenTX on 12/14/2008 09:10:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Stop beating around the bush.

What do you want to do? Just drop all those retired peoples pensions into the PBGC's lap?  That's another train wreck we will be bailing out in upcoming years.

Obviously, every time an US automotive company sheds a worker (and they have been shedding like crazy) without the ability to shed the a retired workers benefits that overall $70 an hour number is going to go up.

Like I said, the Chrysler workers here took a 1/3 pay cut a few months ago and they are still being laid off like crazy because no one is buying Jeeps.

This mess is going to get dumped in our lap one way or another so you just might as well get your check book ready.

by z1p101 on 12/14/2008 09:50:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
If union "thugs" are, indeed, the reason those ten republicans managed to get themselves tricked into doing the right thing by voting against this bail-out, then each of those "thugs" deserves his own private jet.

I love you, thugs.

by OneHitKill on 12/12/2008 10:13:00 AM EST

Oh god Palin again uhh I would rather die myself!

No party deserves that!

First off I hate choosing side so I'm just going to say what i know!

The Mechanics of the UAW do make roughly about 70 U.S. dollars an hour it's posted all over the internet find it or look in the Washington Post. When I read that someon posted the average worker of the UAW  is 29 U.S. dollars i found that to be true too, but what they failed to mention that that is the Janitors, Mechanics, assembly line workers, and other people that make a company run. So if you do add all those together you will get that average.

 Another point:

Unions were  created to help show injustice of the working man working long hours for short amount of pay, and make sure they are properly compensated but since the 1940's have given up there power and are forcing more out-sourcing of American companies. Like the cell phone companies five years ago if you called a hot line you got John Smith now we get Ali Nuboo the 15th.

So in order to get these companies back on track we need to break the union deal and  pay the Ceo's less money than they have been recieving. Find out what the right salaries are for putting one bolt on a car. And have congress regulate these companies closely so we don't have to give them another 15 bilion next year!

Oh yea my dad's best friend worked for the uaw 69 bucks an hour for putting on a fender! ridiculous!

 

I'm also glad to say that Barack is choosing his cabinet wisely! Except Clinton ugh!

by Cameron on 12/13/2008 01:46:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Dear ******,


Please vote against the UAW bailout. Please do not agree to this extortion, unless the union thugs agree to significant wage concessions. Unions are destroying the U.S. manufacturing base.


Sincerely,

(They like it when constituents keep it pithy.)

by KenTX on 12/13/2008 02:45:48 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh yea my dad's best friend worked for the uaw 69 bucks an hour for putting on a fender! ridiculous!

Yes and I have it on hear say authority there is a Swami in India who can levitate, my cousin saw Big Foot, Cabbage Patch kids were modeled after mentally defective children to get people used to what children would look like after a nuclear war.The reason Kentucky Fried Chicken has changed their name to KFC is because they no longer use chickens, they've genetically created a food-animal that has no beak, feet or feathers and is fed through a tube until it reaches the proper size. Eating Pop Rocks with soda causes your stomach to explode, a famous victim of this fatal combination was Mikey from the Life Cereal commercials.

PROVE ME WRONG I DARE YA!!!! Don't go linking credible "sources" that disprove my contentions either, because that's just not fair.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/13/2008 08:40:00 AM EST

[ Parent ]

Who said I was conservative?

 

And that's definitely the reason why i quit eating Kentucky Fried Chicken!

by Cameron on 12/14/2008 01:48:50 AM EST

[ Parent ]
But if you believe a line worker at a Auto Factory was making $69 an hour, you will surely believe all the stuff I posted, unless your real name is Ken.



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/14/2008 08:09:18 AM EST

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