Thoughts of a mormon that supports the rights of same sex couples to marry.

My reaction as a member of the LDS church who supports gay marriage to the passage of prop 8.

 

 (Also viewable at http://katzscommentary.blog spot.com/2008/12/redefining -rightsprop-8-passed.html)

A few weeks ago, I was sitting in the computer lab where I am employed trying to focus on statistics when I was suddenly jarred away from a hopeless attempt to make sense of mathematics by a loud shriek from across the hall. Shrieking is not a frequent occurrence on our campus, so I stood up from my chair and made my way cautiously towards the door.

“What’s going on?” I asked a sleepy looking student entering the lab.

“Oh,” he said, “Prop 8 passed.”

“ugh,” I thought.

I stumbled back behind the front desk and flopped in my chair—deflated.

I had been feeling pretty good that morning. The night before America had finally elected a progressive leader (well, sort of progressive, but I’ll get to Obama’s cabinet in another post)—and much to my pleasant surprise they did it despite his having a goofy name and being non-white. This proposition 8 news, which reported that the right of thousands of Californians to marry one another had been revoked, however, was like a kick to the sternum—enough to knock all the liberal glee out of me.

California?

‘Really?’ I thought to myself.

Aren’t the Castro and Haight Ashberry in California?

Ok, so maybe that’s just San Francisco, but still, what ever happened to the lade back, live and let live, warm weather surfer attitude?

I don’t know why I was so surprised, California doesn’t exactly a stellar track record for good political decision making. We’re talking about the same state that elected the Terminator as governor. I wonder if the people of California were just unconsciously hoping that he would terminate California’s economy with the same destructive vigor which led to the demise of the T1000. Asta la vista baby!

My mind shifted from the state of California’s economic crisis to the phenomenon that had just taken place down the hall from me.

The noisy expelling of air that I had heard from the other room was not a shriek of terror—mirroring my own emotion—but a yelp of joy.

Thousands of people just lost a human right—and this person has the gal to shout with delight?

I became slightly nauseated as I realized where I was—BYU.

Brigham Young University, the university owned an operated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the LDS church)—you know the mormons.

The church whose members were responsible for 4 out of every 5 dollars which funded the advertising campaign in support of proposition 8.

The church that told its California members to get out and knock doors in support of prop 8.

It’s also the church that I happen to belong to.

And from the flavor of this post so far, I’m sure you’ve probably gotten the feeling that I’m not coming down on the same side of this issue as most of the rest of the church membership.

Call me a heretic or a heathen if you want, but I just can’t seem to get my head around the idea that gay marriage actually hurts anyone. Gay people already live together, adopt children, and raise families. What exactly is it that you are trying to prevent here, the ability for gay people to visit their partners in the hospital, or denying one partner custody rights if a couple separates?

I have spoken with many of my peers who feel that restricting gay marriage is not enough. They would like to restrict the LGBT community even further so that they are not allowed to adopt children or raise families. This is unfortunate considering that children raised by same-sex couples do not differ significantly from children raised by heterosexual couples in terms of psychological dysfunction, victimization, likelihood of gay or lesbian sexual orientation (that’s right, children raised by gay and lesbian couples are no more likely to be gay or lesbian than children raised by heterosexual couples), or peer relationships (Golombok & Tasker, 1996; Rivers, Poteat, & Noret, 2008; Wainright & Patterson, 2008). In short, gay and lesbian couples have been consistently found to make just as good of parents as heterosexual couples (Herek, 2006).

The majority of the people that I come into contact with either at BYU or in the LDS church seem to endorse a more moderate position—civil unions are ok, just not marriage. Endorsement of this position is usually an attempt to demonstrate the absence of prejudice, but in reality it is just a more subversive form of it.

Why are civil unions a matter of prejudice, even if we are bestowing the same rights to same sex couples as heterosexual couples?

It goes beyond problems that arise when gay or lesbian couples move between states which often have inconsistent policies regarding civil unions—it is a matter of segregation, not just semantics. Labeling gay marriages as civil unions is the same as forcing black people to drink from a different water fountain. It is saying simply, that gays and lesbians can have the same rights so long as they are kept separate from the rest of us—separate but equal.

Some of my friends will no doubt argue that the circumstances of segregation differ because they believe that sexual orientation is a choice. Without getting into all of the evidence for or against a biological basis for sexual orientation, the fact is that in this country it shouldn’t matter. When mobs chased mormons out of Missouri and Illinois because of polygamy was that not discrimination based on belief or a choice? Discrimination because of belief or choice is still discrimination. Just because you believe someone wasn’t born that way doesn’t make it ok.

In this country such forms of discrimination are not ok.

Many of my peers are bent out of shape by the notion that allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry will somehow “redefine” marriage. I’m not exactly sure what they mean. We live in a country of definitional relativism. I don’t see people trying to legislate a definition for God or Jesus Christ. Does the fact that Catholics, Mormons, Jews, and Muslims all define diety differently really effect your own personal definitions?

Not allowing gay and lesbian couples to call their unions marriage would be sort of like revoking the Lutheran’s tax exempt status because they do not define God the same way as the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Another fear which I have heard expressed by many of my peers is that government endorsement of a marriage between two people of the same sex will somehow obstruct the rights of religious institutions to practice their beliefs. This is of particular concern to LDS individuals who are worried that the government will force the LDS church to perform temple marriages between individuals who do not meet the church’s self proclaimed standards of temple worthiness (it is probably important to point out that the US government does not currently force the LDS church to perform marriages for heterosexual couples that do not meet the church’s standards). This is a reasonable concern, however, it is a concern which is already protected by the 1st amendment of the United States Constitution which reads:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

This constitutional protection, however, does not seem to be enough to assuage many of these fears. Perhaps the way to pass gay marriage then, would be to provide a bill provision which allows churches and religious institutions to restrict which marriages they perform as protected by the first amendment. Such a provision would allow churches to retain their first amendment rights without infringing upon the rights of gay and lesbian couples to enter into civilly protected marriages. Churches have the right to believe that drinking, smoking, or gay or lesbian lifestyles are wrong, they just don’t have the right to force people of other faiths or beliefs to live by their standards.

To be fair, many from my side of the discussion have argued that the issue of gay marriage is a moral argument, and that morality does not belong in politics. Unfortunately this argument lacks an understanding of the word morality. To be moral is to be concerned with right and wrong.

We legislate morality all the time. For example, we consider killing another human being in cold blood to be wrong, so therefore we have a legal punishment set up for such an offense. To be legislated is to be moral. The fundamental question of whether to permit or outlaw same sex unions is indeed a value question. It is a question of the fundamental moral values of our country. Either our country is built on the philosophical assumptions that everyone has the unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness so long as our pursuits of happiness do not conflict with the same rights of others; or we are a “Christian nation” so far as Christianity is defined by the majority of people. Either we value the freedom which brought the pilgrims across the ocean in the first place—the freedom of belief—or we value forcing everyone to believe according to the dictates of our own individuals faith.

As for me, I value freedom. I don’t want to force anyone to live by my beliefs any more than I would want to be forced to live by theirs. We have laws to protect the rights of people, not to force them to live according to our own individual world-views. The whims of the majority should not be permitted to restrict the constitutional rights of minorities, so I support the right of same sex couples to marry.

Hey, look on the bright side, maybe letting people get married that have never had the ability to will actually decrease the divorce rate.

Related Posts:

Protecting god from government

This is bound to illicit some angry responses


References

Golombok, S., & Tasker, F. (1996). Do parents influence the sexual orientation of their children? Findings from a longitudinal study of lesbian families. Developmental Psychology, 32(1), 3-11.

Herek, G. M. (2006). Legal recognition of same-sex relationships in the United States: A social science perspective. American Psychologist, 61(6), 607-621.

Rivers, I., Poteat, V. P., & Noret, N. (2008). Victimization, social support, and psychosocial functioning among children of same-sex and opposite-sex couples in the United Kingdom. Developmental Psychology, 44(1), 127-134.

Wainright, J. L., & Patterson, C. J. (2008). Peer relations among adolescents with female same-sex parents. Developmental Psychology, 44(1), 117-126.
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I guess I will start on a positive note and say I have vacationed in Salt Lake City and overall it has a nice quality of living for a city.  In addition I have toured Temple Square thoroughly and it is an interesting place.  That said.....

1. Let's put marriage aside for the moment and talk about a much much more basic right to employment.  This case is being cited by organizations in favor of the broad ENDA religious exemption.  

http://supreme.justia.com/u s/483/327/case.html

So if a gay person wants to be even the assistant to the janitor at your school BYU guess what!  If the school finds out they are gay they can be LEGALLY fired.  So even if ENDA passes on a federal level it will likely still include a broad religious exemption which sends a message that according to church doctrine it is ok to fire someone because they are gay.  In a town like Salt Lake City that is a strong message.

2. Be careful how critical you are of California.  Utah's hyper-conservative state supreme court doesn't exactly make it a poster-child for human rights.

by sfinneganus on 12/27/2008 07:20:20 PM EST


And their new mayor, Ralph Becker, is a Democrat, like their previous one, Rocky Anderson.

Also, I'm with you in assuming it's still better for a GLBT person to live in California than in Utah, or Texas outside of Austin or the "villages" of Houston and Dallas for that matter.

by LudwigVan on 12/27/2008 07:50:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]

At BYU someone can be fired or expelled for drinking, smoking, or engaging in extramarital sex period.  It's not as if their discriminating against people solely on a basis of sexual orientation, they simply have a code of conduct that students/faculty/staff must agree to live by in order to work or attend school there.  If BYU received any sort of state or government funding I would say you have a point, but since they do not their right to employ or admit students based on religious living standards (whether you agree with them or not) is protected by the 1st amendment.  Furthermore, it is not as if BYU is the only university in Utah either.

 I'm perfectly happy to be critical of utah's politics, as I have frequently been on my blog, I just thought Californians were a little more open minded than most people in utah.  Unfortunately, it turns out there doesn't seem to be quite as big a difference as i thought.  I don't think I defended Utah anywhere in my post whatsoever.  That said Salt Lake City tends to be a little more progressive than the rest of the state.

by katz on 12/27/2008 09:19:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Drinking, smoking, and heterosexual relations outside of marriage are an option.  The gay friends I know have an attraction to men only.  They say they were born that way.  I don't have a gay-truth-meter to determine if they are telling the truth.  I can only take them at their word.

The LDS church should lose its 501(c)(3) status because of the door to door volunteer action and the $20 million it contributed to support and influence prop 8.  

http://newsroom.lds.org/lds newsroom/eng/commentary/cal ifornia-and-same-sex-marria ge

Here is my message to the LDS church and anyone who donates or contributes time to it.  I want you out of my neighborhood and my state.  As far as I am concerned you have the same "right to exist" as you afford to the LGBT community which is nothing.  If you are an LDS donor and I have a chance to legally rip you off in a business transaction I will.  It was a huge mistake for Salt Lake City to have been given the Olympics.  After prop 8 I have a 0 travel policy to Salt Lake City.  At work if I find out someone I supervise is an active Mormom I will find some work related issue to fire them over because I don't find their code of conduct acceptable.  

by sfinneganus on 12/27/2008 11:09:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]

Just to clarify, BYU won't expel or probate someone for being attracted to members of the same sex, they will expel someone for engaging in extra-marital sexual activity.  So conceivably a gay or lesbian person could work for or attend BYU without consequence so long as they lived by BYU's "honor code". I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with that position, but it is what it is.

 As for your boycotting of Utah, I'll let the Salt Lake City Weekly's Ryan Bradford speak for me in that regard:

http://cityweekly.blogspot. com/2008/11/dear-dan-savage .html

by katz on 12/27/2008 11:34:19 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I am no holier than thou person for sure and I have plenty of faults but I do have some gay friends one of which was recently fired by some Iranian immigrants b/c he was gay.  He has a mortgage payment and an elderly mother.....and took a straight woman to his company christmas party this year b/c he is paranoid about being fired.  

I have heard it argued by some religous leaders that to truly be human you must fit into the "mold" of a heterosexual couple relationship with the possibility of procreation.  In addition the leaders believe to not do this is missing out on a critical part of maturity and development.  They say that homosexual acts are a sin even though the responsibility for the sin declines b/c the test of avoiding the sin is so great.  At the same time these religous leaders are saying gays and lesbians should be full members of their religous communities......even though in my opinion the churches do nothing for them other then offer total shame.

by sfinneganus on 12/27/2008 07:48:51 PM EST


Killing people isnt just a "moral " question.

Dont Mormons view abortion as killing people? Its legal.

I wonder first off why anyone would WANT to be part of the twisted world of the Mormons.

Secondly same sex marriage is a civil rights issue it has nothing to do with the mormons view of morality.

by Chinese Democracy on 12/27/2008 09:08:51 PM EST


You obviously didn't read the post all the way through.  I support gay marriage.

Secondly civil rights issues are issues of morality.  The very idea of having civil rights at all is a notion of morality.  What I said was (if you had actually taken the time to read it) that based on the founding moral values of our country—the right to life, liberty, and the puruit of happiness—same sex couples should have the right to marry.

by katz on 12/27/2008 09:27:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Maybe those who would prevent gays from adopting or raising families should be made to adopt those kids themselves?

"Hell, you're one to be talking about sock puppets. You're a sock puppet yourself! by LBJdem (KenTX) on 06/12/2009 02:14:54 AM EST

by Robrob on 12/27/2008 10:52:39 PM EST


....was really a complete waste of my time.

The LDS church is no the only one at fault over prop 8 unfortunately they just happen to be the most organized and best funded.  

Until I see the LDS church and BYU allow an LGBT person to apply for a janitor or secretary job for example we have nothing to talk about.    Full rights as American citizens for the LGBT community including employment are not negotiable.

by sfinneganus on 12/27/2008 11:26:32 PM EST


It is a private school. They can make they're own rules as they see fit. And there is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I live in Utah, have done for 38 of my 50 years. I am proud to live in one of the 3 (of 29) counties that went blue this last election. The Church don't speak for all Utahns, certainly not for me. I'm not a member, but I will not disrespect them for believing what they believe in. Well, maybe Chris Buttars. But he would be a dick even if he had never heard of the LDS Church. All the talk of boycotts of Utah is misguided. The gap between left and right is getting fairly narrow these days. I think it went 62% to 38% State-wide in the last election. That's a hell of a lot closer than it used to be. 13% will disappear soon enough. Salt Lake is a very progressive town. It would probably surprise most that SL has the oldest gay bar west of the Mississippi. The Church's official stance on gays is you can be queer as a 3 dollar bill and still be mo, long as you are celebate. I guess what I'm saying is there is a lot more to Utah than what the National press reports. Yeah, there are lots more poligs that you can imagine, but on the other hand, I've never been a member of a private club and I've never had any problem drinking in any one of them. Yeah, the seperation of Church and State is only the 3 blocks between Temple Square and the State Capital, but 10 minutes from my house and I am seperated from civilization completely. After reading Katz and many others with similar views, I do believe that there are many members that are disgusted with church policy. Don't give up on Utah. Remember, we were the deciding vote that repealed prohibition! (and forget that we were the deciding vote that killed the ERA)  

by Pritch on 12/28/2008 12:19:08 AM EST


I was raised in Utah, and as one of the few non-Mormons in my community, I experienced plenty of discrimination and abuse, both emotionally and physically.  (Everyone knew if you didn't attend their church, so secrecy wasn't an option)  Likewise, I couldn't choose not to interact with the community either.  If I wanted to have any friends at all, they pretty much had to be LDS, and there were indeed more open-minded and tolerant folks, usually those who had migrated to Utah from other states where they themselves had experienced what it was like to be a minority.  So I had plenty of time to analyze Utah culture from the perspective of a person who was an unwanted member of the community; an outsider in my own home.

One thing I can say about the Mormon church is that it does not have a record of fiercely standing by its own dogma when dominant cultural attitudes in the country oppose its views.  Polygamy is the obvious example (although it is definitely still practiced by some behind closed doors).  But African-Americans, for example, were once seen by the LDS church as the descendents of Caine, the son of Adam who murdered his own brother.  This sin was said to be borne by Caine's descendents in the form of a mark, ie. colored skin.  Thus, people with more melanin in their skin than an average Caucasian were considered to be inherently sinful and were not allowed to become members of the LDS church (If we're all born of original sin, then why should that matter?  No answer, of course).  But along comes the human rights movement and, lo and behold, people of color are suddenly allowed to become members of the Mormon church, and the old belief is quietly swept under the rug.  These are only two examples of how this church has changed its policies and rewritten its records to hide the historical truth from its members, and to allow them to continue to grow and recruit more members, which is something the Mormon church takes very seriously (one of my friends was disowned by his family when he decided not to serve a "mission", that is, a 2-year term devoted to recruiting new members that all active male members are expected to serve).

This isn't to say they change their views easily.  The government more or less forced them to formally denounce polygamy before Utah could become a state.  But, unlike the Catholic church and its refusal to even turn a blind eye to the use of contraception, the LDS church has proved to behave more like a corporation.  Members give 10% of their income to the church.  "Good" members give 10% of their gross income, not net.  They own lots of real estate and plenty of stock.  They have money and, like big corporations, they use it to promote what they believe to be their best interest.  That best interest changes as times change, and the church leaders have shown a lot of acumen in keeping the church relevant by adapting to that change, albeit slowly.  I believe it is only a matter of time, maybe a long time, before the gay community is accepted by the Mormon church.  I also believe that gay rights will have to be widely accepted and enforced in the US before that change is possible.  They will probably have to be put in a position where church leaders must accept that continued discrimination against gays is only hurting its own prospects for the future.  Then they'll change, and they'll pretend that it was always that way.

But right now the general Mormon perspective on homosexuality is similar to the general conservative perspective on global warming: refusal to acknowledge its legitimacy as a debateable issue (the head-in-the-sand stance, aka the put-your-fingers-in-your-ea rs-and-shout-la-la-la stance).  This kind of ignorance is exacerbated by the fact that Utah is one of the most isolated states in the country.  The states around it are similarly low in population and largely supportive of Mormon attitudes, which have bled into them as their church's influence and membership have expanded in the region.  If you look at the 2008 Presidential election map, you can see their part of the country, together with the South, are the current strongholds (or last bastions, perhaps) of the right wing.  You can also see their spheres of influence shrinking as more moderate views gain ground in the suburbs and exurbs, as minority populations increase, and as younger generations come of age who have grown up in communities and with media that are filled with people of all colors, creeds and nations.

The whole situation actually makes perfect sense and is following a clear historical pattern of intolerance and acceptance.  We definitely need to keep an eye on the Mormon church to make sure it doesn't get away with any more prop 8's in the future.  But I don't think we need to be particularly concerned by the Mormons, per se, any more than we already are of any other brand of right winger.  If they attempt more of these attacks on civil liberties, we should lean on them as hard as we can and not be intimidated by their threats and false accusations.  Remember, the constitution is on our side, and it's much harder to look a person in the face when you tell them that you don't believe in allowing them their due rights.  The Mormon church hates bad press because it hurts their reputation and makes recruitment of new members more difficult.  It would probably be helpful to create an aggressive online campaign to strongly associate the Mormon church with homophobia.  They don't want to change their homophobic policies, but they don't want to be called homophobic either.  Katz was right to point out that their stance on gays is just another case of separate-but-equal hypocrisy.

It's a shame, because Utah truly is a place of great natural beauty.  Nice to visit, but, as Cenk would say, Can't have it.  Can't live there, Can't work there, Can't buy beer that's over 3.2% alcohol there (except in state-run liquor stores.  You see?  The hypocrisy never ends).

by argylecat on 12/28/2008 07:03:23 PM EST


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