12/28/2008 05:08:12 PM EST

People do follow the Bible

posted by jjr5

What Cenk said about the Bible is incorrect.

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     Cenk made an argument in a recent video saying no one "follows the Bible" and that no one should pay attention to Biblical arguments. The point was made that if we really followed the Bible, we would walk away from our families, our possessions, and our jobs and go follow Jesus. Cenk's argument, and arguments like his - in this segment- are exactly why I believe that the Christian political right is so dangerous.

Cenk is taking passages out of context and using it to support his own argument. It is true that there are a lot of stories and sayings in the Bible, however, if these passages are actually studied at length, they do not contradict each other. Catholic theology and teachings from the Vatican are, in my opinion, a great example of this kind of interpretation. Scholars in the Catholic Church have been studying Bible passages for centuries and have shed light on connections between the stories and passages. There is a continuity these passages that amateur eyes would not catch and that people could twist to their own agendas, while departing from the original meaning of Biblical passages. Rigorous, and responsible interpretation of the Bible has  helped countless people in the world to live fulfilling, and productive lives, lives where they constantly struggle to follow Christ.

Also, there are unfortunately different sects of Christianity all of whom use the Bible, but have different beliefs. For example, Catholics believe that the bread and wine we eat at communion is actually the Body and Blood of Christ, reincarnated before us. Other sects do not believe this and believe that the bread and wine is only a representation of the Body and Blood of Jesus. So different sects have different beliefs and do different things. Just because the Evangelical Right does something and misuses the Bible, does not mean that this is true of ALL Christians or ALL people who use the Bible. By saying that the Bible is not true or holds conflicting statements, as an argument against the Evangelical Right, You are no longer arguing against the Evangelical or Political Right, but against everyone who uses the Bible - even though they have different beliefs interpretations within their church structure and of the Bible.  And because it is primarily Christians who use the Bible, not only the Torah, not the Koran, you would be making an implication against all Christians.  Not every Christian believes in an irresponsible interpretation of the Bible or believes the same things that the Christian right does.

Lastly, Cenk makes an argument saying that if everyone actually followed the Bible, we would all leave our families and possessions and follow Jesus. This may be true for some people. Some people become missionaries in other countries, teaching other people about Christ. Some people become nuns and monks. Some people do leave their families and sell their possessions and do these things. However, Cenk used this argument as a way to say Christians are wrong in their beliefs because not all Christians do this. However, as Christians, we ARE supposed to do this. We are called to live simple and sparse lives and not go after wordly possessions. We cannot love our families more than we love God. That means that if God calls us to be guidance counselors and not doctors, like our families may want us to be, that is what we should do. We learn what God wants us to do by praying to him, reading the Bible, recieving communion or other sacraments, and living in community with other Christians who can help us on our walk. If we feel that God wants us to be nuns or missionaires, so that we can follow Jesus, that is what we have to do, regardless of what our families say. Countless Christians do this every day.  Taking this passage out of context the way Cenk did is dangerous because it sends a signal that Christans aren't listening to what God called them to do. In fact several Christans are, or should be, in a struggle to find out what Christ is calling them to do so that they can follow him with their lives, souls, hearts, minds, and bodies.

Cenk, I think that in order to have a correct interpretation of the Scripture, you need more studying and you need to listen to interpretations that are routed in thousands of years of study. I do agree that how people in the Evangelical Righthave been interpreting Scripture (against the rights of African-Americans and those of LGBT individuals ) is dangerous and wrong because it is unjust. However, I think incorrect interpretation of scripture can go both ways and I, personally, do not appreciate surface-level interpretation of the Bible, regardless of whom it is coming from.
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People do follow the Bible | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)
Catholic church? (none / 0)
The catholic church also believes that you can't use a condom unless one or both of you have aids and you have many children.

by Resounding on 12/28/2008 05:44:36 PM EST

No one follows the Bible (none / 0)
Not a single person follows the Bible. They do whatever they want to do, or that their local cult leader wants them to do, based on whatever "interpretation" they decide to follow. The only "correct" interpretation of scripture is that it is a bunch of folk tales that were relevant to the people living in the times that the stories were created. Anything more than that is twisting old stories to say what we want to hear.

by Improbable Joe on 12/28/2008 06:08:12 PM EST

Amen bro (none / 0)
alos if one would follow the bible, he would do contradictory things

by callisto on 12/28/2008 07:03:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh boy (none / 0)
firstly: I'm drunk, so I will probably comment in full tomorrow

just a quick question: in your view, which church represents the kind of values and morals that is truely christian, in your opinion which is the right church to follow?

Asking this, since you called the LARGEST CHURCH IN THE WORLD aka the Catholic Church a sect, I guess we have different ideas about what a sect is, I wouldn't think of the leading church or domination within a faith as a sect.

by callisto on 12/28/2008 07:13:05 PM EST

Actually you are correct about one thing... (none / 0)
...People do follow the Bible =>

some people kill, rape, have slaves, treat women as property, engage in genocide, mutulate and hate

so yeah, people do follow "the good book" :-)

by callisto on 12/28/2008 07:16:43 PM EST

Cenk 100% right, you 0% (none / 0)

As soon as you stated the bible isn't contradictory, your credibility flew out the window. You forgot to mention which bible you use as your source. Is it the original Greek version written 50 years after Jesus and friends' lifetimes or did you go for the ever popular King James version (the title of which ALONE should give you pause as to it's veracity)

Or are you one of those who separate Old from New testaments? Worst hypocrites of all.

See, if we followed the bible, we would have slaves (as long as they aren't of our "tribe"), beat our numerous wives for the most minor infractions, etc., etc...

In fact, the most basic of sexual moral prohibition - incest - is not only close to the norm in every story, your belief DEPENDS on incest. Adam and Eve populated the earth? Explain how that is done without incest coming into play?

Wanna be christ-like instead of a practicing christian? Do unto others, baby, do unto others...

by MedfordTim on 12/28/2008 07:30:53 PM EST

Tim you probably just blew his mind :-) (none / 0)
with the different versions of the bible thing :-)

to all, buy Ken's Guide to the Bible, refreshing piece of literature

by callisto on 12/28/2008 07:36:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
2 things in response: (none / 0)

     Firstly, Your examples are exactly what I am talking about - you basically took the worst things in the Bible and used them for your argument for why the Bible is unreliable or worse. This is just as bad as Right-Wingers who use the Bible to advance their own political agendas and implant hate in their within their bases. In the New Testament, God says that 2 laws are "more excellent" than any other law (including those in the old Testament). First, love God with your entire heart, mind, soul, and strength and second, love your neighbor as yourself. These are the laws that we are supposed to pay most attention to, and whatever we do cannot contradict these laws. This means that incest is out, having your neighbors as slaves is out, beating your wife is out, and other things that people found in the old Testament. 

Before Christ came, people had to follow the commands of Moses, including the 10 commandments, but also several other laws in order to keep themselves from sinning. Christ gave us 2 new laws, Mark Chapter 12 verses 30-31, to make life simpler for us and let us know what he (as God) expected of us.

 

     Secondly, I don't use the King James version of the Bible. I use the New American Bible, it has the most accurate text that I can find. The King James version and other protestant Bibles only have 66 books, whereas the New American Bible and Catholic Bibles have 73, the original length. I don't want a cut down version of a tool that is supposed to help me with my faith. I honestly wouldn't touch a King James or other book that either had an incorrect translation or was missing actual books of the Bible!

 

by jjr5 on 12/28/2008 11:37:36 PM EST

[ Parent ]
And yet... (none / 0)

"I honestly wouldn't touch a King James or other book that either had an incorrect translation or was missing actual books of the Bible!"

Then you DO read ancient Greek? You don't seriously think the Catholics left everything in and didn't fiddle with what was there, do you? If so, I have a bridge for sale, AND a car for you to drive across it!

Face it. You have NO FREAKIN' IDEA what an ORIGINAL bible would consist of - how many chapters, books, contributors - anything! All you CAN be sure of is that NONE of it was written until 50 years AFTER the fact, dependent on passed down through word of mouth fables. Ever heard of "Chinese Whispers"?

"First, love God with your entire heart, mind, soul, and strength"

See, now that's another place where the whole thing falls apart. What sort of petulant, spoiled brat of a god insists on this sort of adulation? This is something you would expect from Britney Spears, not a creator if all there is. It's very petty on his part.

Okay, so you ARE one of those who reject the Old Testament. Fine. Want to talk about your pedophile god? Or do you also doubt that this omniscient being impregnated a 12 year old (guess he couldn't find someone his own age...) and then left her on her own. Real nice deity you got there. In a way, it makes all deadbeat dads true believers.

See, the thing is, I didn't take the worst of the bible. There is plenty more bad and worse in there - I just grabbed the first bronze ring that came around.

Like all religions, yours is based on a lie. Yet you expect others to ignore reality and grant you some sort of pass because you have "faith." What an inglorious waste of time and resources. Let the pope melt down his gold and feed the poor, then come back and talk about what a great thing Catholicism is.

by MedfordTim on 12/29/2008 12:55:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Depends on how you define "Silent" (none / 0)
And the Vatican was silent during WWII, because their team was represented by the Axis.

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):
"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace."

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16) states:
"This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things."

While Protestants were giving away large chunks of "Catholic" Europe to Hitler who managed to kill at least 3 Million Catholics in Poland, were was the snake handlers you were so fond of Kenny?

I don't deny the Church has faults to numerous to list here, but I am sick of misinformed idiots posting the same crap they read on the "Internets" with origins from the same half baked religious wackos you claim to despise.

Up next, Ken explains how the Catholic Church is really "The Great Whore" and Obama is the "Anti-Christ".

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 12/29/2008 03:54:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Rejecting The Old Testament (none / 0)
That always pisses me off, Christians who dismiss the Old Testament as irrelevant because of Jesus and the New Testament.

Aside from the fact that they still quote from the OT when it comes go homosexuality, the supposed moral foundation of our behavior is found in the OLD Testament.

I'm referring of course to The Ten Commandments. So if the Old Testament is irrelevant I guess we can ignore that pesky list of rules to.

by Tom Hanc on 12/29/2008 03:55:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The 10 commandments is not "pesky" (none / 0)
I mean, it has things like "Do not kill," and "Do not commit adultery," - things that would help anyone live a pleasant life today, don't you think? :)

by jjr5 on 12/30/2008 01:49:54 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 0)
I agree that common sense rules (most if not all of which existed in some form prior to the Bible being written) are good.

I believe rational, secular people also agree that not killing and stealing (etc.) are good things. The problem comes in with abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, ineffective abstinence only education, physician assisted suicide, masturbation, sex outside of marriage and the list goes on.

by Tom Hanc on 12/30/2008 02:32:17 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Cherry picking (none / 0)
didn't see that one coming :-)

what about the first commandment, he? The first commandment is just another word for intolarence, it's also a sign of a very petty and insecure god.

Also "Honor your father and mother" seems nice, but what if your parents abuse you, does this also count for the 6 yo girl who's raped by her father, if we go by history: YES, the churches have covered up most abuses.

what gives it an extra something of course is the punishment for breaking the commandments: death.

by callisto on 12/30/2008 11:03:03 AM EST

[ Parent ]
How come... (none / 0)

....it's always the DAD who's the abuser? Can't we just once have an analogy where the mother is raping the six year old son? Dads get a bum rap....

:-)

by MedfordTim on 12/30/2008 01:16:08 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Well, God admits that he is a jealous God (none / 0)
and that he wants us to follow only him. I think God was being very up front about that. Think about the consequences of if he wasn't jealous - with the pretexts he puts for what are at stake for us, who could he not be jealous.

by jjr5 on 02/14/2009 01:04:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm not expecting any pass (none / 0)
I am just expressing my point of view. I appreciate the fact that you shared yours. Thanks.

by jjr5 on 12/30/2008 01:37:30 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm not expecting a pass (none / 0)
I am just expressing my point of view. I appreciate the fact that you shared yours. I think it is important. Thanks.

by jjr5 on 12/30/2008 01:39:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]
spertus chicago asher library (none / 0)
maintains an ecollection of just about every version of the bible except some very very rare ones.....greek, hebrew, aramaic, english....it is very thorough.....it costs $20 per year and you have to install a citrix client to connect.....

by sfinneganus on 12/28/2008 09:11:37 PM EST

I love the 'out of context' argument for (none / 0)

defending the Bible.

Would you like to explain the context of the following Bible quotes?

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.   (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense.   (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.   (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)  (Bet they didn't see that one coming, HAH)

This is one of my favorites that never gets talked about...   Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

 Same subject: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.   (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

   Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively.  I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.  For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve.  And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result.  But women will be saved through childbearing  and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.   (1 Timothy 2:11-15 NLT)

  As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.  But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home.  For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.   (1 Corinthians 14:33-35 NAB)

And just for fun:      If two Israelite men are fighting and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man, her hand must be cut off without pity.   (Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NLT)

 Let me know if you need some more.

by richardshort2001 on 12/29/2008 12:33:48 AM EST

my thoughts (none / 0)
I am glad Medford and the rest of you are around to write more complete rebuttals, because if it were up to me all I would say is "This guy is an idiot."

Who remembers that 16 year old kid from South Carolina who used to post a lot on the website back in 2003 and 2004? This poster reminds me of him, only a little older.

David

by yturks on 12/29/2008 01:31:47 AM EST

His name was Trey (none / 0)

Poor mixed up youngster.

One thing I never expect is to win an argument of logic with a person of "faith" but it sure is fun throwing the insanity right back at them and watching them squirm.

by MedfordTim on 12/29/2008 05:41:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I think it is interesting (none / 0)
 that you are assuming things about me.  Also, I guess you are free to call me an idiot, but what merits such strong language? Is it because I am making a comment about something I believe the host of this show may have done wrong?  I really enjoy this show and I got the notion that this blog site was a place for open exchange, which is great. We need more places like that.  I do think it is a little off how sometimes blanket, negative statements are made about Christians (I guess because it is permissible to smear this group in the liberal world). Well, how about those liberals who are Christians too? There are a lot of them of different varieties. I feel like Cenk uses Christians (most likely because of the Christian Right, and I can understand the anger) to make arguments against religion in general. I mean, even he admits that making comments against Jews would kill someone in a second within media (thank goodness). He also doesn't say anything against Muslims, because that is just not okay in the liberal blogosphere (another good thing). So who is used - all of the time - Christians. Hey, even I am wary of the Christian Right. Anyone who mixes religion with politics needs to be watched. However, this time he argued against the Bible which demeans everyone who uses the Bible. Come on! As Cenk would say, "Come on, come on, come on!"

by jjr5 on 12/30/2008 02:17:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You have NOT been paying attention (none / 0)

Cenk abuses ALL religions equally - good for him. If you haven't heard him bashing Muslims, stick around. He does it frequently and with just as much vigor as he does any other group of religious nuts.

I am Liberal (actually, I prefer Liberaltarian, but that's just me) and have no qualms about being "negative" about ANY religion. The blanketier, the better. It's not a smear to say Christians have a bloody history filled with oppresion and misguided superiority complexes. That's just the truth. If it hurts, you haven't examined the history of your faith very well.

Or your bible.

On a side note, the use of the word "idiot" is practically a sign of endearment around here. Don't take it so personally. I'm pretty sure that all the regulars have been called an idiot (and much, MUCH worse) at one time or another, and I'm also willing to bet that we have all said idiotic things.

The only real use for a bible is when you have a table which needs a prop under a leg to keep it from wobbling. Other than that, it's pretty much worthless.

by MedfordTim on 12/30/2008 01:13:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Cenk Is Doing Just Fine in HIs Bible Study (none / 0)
The Bible does have factual contradictions, not just theological. The Christmas story is one of the best examples for me.

Both Catholics and Seventh-Day Adventists believe that Mary gave birth to no other children other than Jesus, and that the brothers and sisters mentioned in the New Testament are step-siblings from Joseph, who was widowed before he met Mary. However, in Jewish culture, the first-born of the father receives the privileges, and the Messiah was predicted to be the first-born son. Also, if Joseph was required to bring his pregnant wife to Bethlehem for the census, why wouldn't he bring his other children? If families traveled in groups for the Passover, why not then?

Read the two genealogies of Jesus found in Matthew and Luke. I once emailed a Bible answer site about this, and the representative confessed, "Obviously, they are talking about two different Josephs." If the Bible is to be relied on for both facts and inspiration, why couldn't it get this right? After all, Joseph was in Jesus' life at least until he was twelve years old. Even in today's culture, most twelve year old's know something of their own background. It would have been doubly true in a tribal culture.

I also sometimes smile at how heady an experience it must have been for Mary to change God's diaper. "You may be the Creator of the universe, but I'm changing your diaper!" No wonder that Catholics believe that Mary was also immaculately conceived, to not become a megalomaniac after that.

by Average Jill on 12/29/2008 07:25:57 AM EST

I think it's fair (none / 0)

to give give jjr some credit for putting his beliefs up on the chopping block amongst us TYT butchers knowing full well his beliefs and convictions would be challenged. I commend that.

JJr5, good for you, and thank you for provoking this kind of discussion.

Of course, you're completely wrong. :)

I won't challenge you on the merits of your particular faith... merely I would ask you to recognize (which you seem to have already done) the strong and distinct difference between your interpretation of the bible and that of the other denominations? You seem to acknowledge the great diversity of Christian belief across the world. So many different thoughts and threads and beliefs regarding the role of the Testaments and of Jesus and of the Verses and Chapters... There are vast differences between the various Christian sects, yes? No?

Literal. Metaphorical.  

I submit that the sheer existence of so many interpretations is evidence enough to question the validity of all of them. The mere fact that these differences exist is evidence enough for the rational/skeptical mind to understand that none of them are grounded in reality. Seriously, friend?  Your almighty god? Your passive god? Your Bible-writing god (maybe he was just a contributing editor?)? He/she/it couldn't see fit to unify the interpretations? Instead it was preferable to engage the humans in centuries of conflict over words and phrases... ? Blood, rape and conquest... really?

Jjr5...  please, give to your faith the same logic and scrutiny to which you give your bank account...   or to which you give your decisions regarding medical care... or to which you give your choices regarding building a safe deck off your back porch...  skepticism, empathy... You're smart enough to understand both.

Brother, understand it's ok to be a human, to love and hate and forgive and learn and treat others well...  Make the best of life, be a good person, use your mind, steer with your heart...

The bible? really? Really?  Come on...

by Badass4Peace on 02/14/2009 03:49:43 AM EST

Interesting, thanks for posting (none / 0)

The thing is that I DO try to ascertain the point of my faith and ask questions, actual questions that I have.  The fear and the worst thing that could happen is to let your faith turn stagnant or to passively accept whatever you are fed. A lot of Christians, and possibly people of other faiths, I am admittedly not as familiar with, fall into this trap too. That's exactly what it is - a trap.

 If God is any kind of god, I should be able to ask him real questions - serious questions that I have. However, I also need to listen for an answer. If my faith is actually faith, I should be able to, not necessarily scrutinize, but dig deep -even to places I don't necessarily feel comfortable going. That's the point of the faith walk - in my view, it's your own personal journey and a real conversation.

by jjr5 on 03/01/2009 04:02:24 AM EST

[ Parent ]
People do follow the Bible | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 hidden)
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