02/15/2008 04:07:19 PM EST

Men Vs Women On Body Type: Why The Disconnect?

posted by Tom Hanc

The issue came up in another thread that women feel pressure to look a certain way.  It was accurately pointed out that most men prefer the look of women in porn magazines (Playboy and harder stuff) compared to the ultra-thin women in the fashion magazines.

So why do so many women say they feel pressure from men to be ultra-thin?

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Why do most women seem to think most men want them to have a body like this when the reality is most men would much rather have them look like this?  Sure, I realize that neither one of the bodies in those two links is necessarily incredibly realistic, but can anyone argue that the second one isn't *more* realistic and actually healthy?

The fact is, there is a lot of pressure on *both* sexes to look a certain way.  While women still clearly have more pressure on them, men have gained (or maybe I should say lost) a lot of ground in recent years, with chiseled abs all over tv, movies, music and magazines.

At any rate, who's to blame for these unrealistic expectations with regard to women being ultra-thin?  In my opinion, the very LAST group I would place the blame on is (straight) men.

How many of you know straight guys that wish every girl had the body of Kate Moss, Lara Flynn Boyle or one of the Olsen twins?  Yeah, yeah, some of you hornballs might find one or all of these women attractive, but would you really (superficially speaking of course) choose any one of their bodies over the bodies of Scarlett, Sofia or Tyra?

A small number of you still might say yes, but you're the exception that proves the rule (and you're crazy!).

I'm about to say something that doesn't get said enough, if it ever gets said at all (Gross Generalization Alert): The blame falls on straight women and gay men!  Yes, I said it.  Who do you think runs the fashion magazines?  Who do you think chooses the next top model?  Exactly.

The irony is, (straight) men don't seem to have ENOUGH influence on the choice of models in most of these magazines.  If they would put some straight guys on the panel, there might actually be some healthier looking models out there for the world to see.

I'm sure I've pissed some people off by now, so I should clarify some things. Lighting, make-up and air-brushing pretty much make ALL of these people (beautiful men and women all over tv, music and movies) far more attractive then they'd be in real life.  This is an obvious point but I have to bring it up in fairness.  And obviously a lot of the girls in porn have had cosmetic surgery, so while they often have bigger boobs and butts than most fashion models, the rest of them is sometimes still pretty skinny.

With that said, I take issue with fat people arguing that "real women have curves".  Yes, they do. But I'm sorry, appearance aside,  if the issue is being healthy, why would being overweight (as defined in clinical, objective terms) be any better than being underweight?  They both carry different short and long term risks.

All things in moderation here.  Just because the *average* person is now overweight in America, it doesn't mean we should make the word "average" synonymous with "ideal" or set the bar so low that we say it's "realistic".  ; Clearly Women only consuming water and celery all day are going down the wrong path, but so are those going with Pizza and Pepsi all day. 

Well, I've obviously oversimplified a complicated issue. There are many factors involved, including biology (I could write a whole thread on that) so please don't take the above post as a complete summary of what I think. I'll weigh in more as you all share your thoughts.
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Poll

Who's To Blame For Making Women Feel Like They Need To Have The Body Of A 10 Year Old Boy?
(Straight) Men 0%
Gay Men 8%
(Straight) Women 20%
Gay Men and (Straight) Women 41%
Society In General 29%
No One Can Make You Feel A Certain Way If You Don't Let Them 12%
Other (Please Comment) 0%

Votes: 24
Results | Other Polls
 Display:
Men Vs Women On Body Type: Why The Disconnect? | 50 comments (50 topical, 0 hidden)
Pizza and what? (none / 0)

If this is going to be a discussion on health (rather than on body type), then it needs to be said that an overweight person with an active lifestyle is more healthy than a person of ideal weight who doesn't exercise.

Let's shell a little blame where it belongs: On everyone.  That might seem like a "no solution" kind of answer, but I can't believe that a specific demographic is responsible for such a broad problem.  Every type of man and woman plays their part in the issue, whether they do so with their libido, their greed, their ideals or their personal insecurities.

That aside, I noticed you used the word "pop" in your post.  You aren't from Wisconsin, are you?

by OneHitKill on 02/14/2008 08:02:56 PM EST

You don't have to convince me (none / 0)
that there are a LOT of unhealthy skinny people out there.  I call them "skinny fat", i.e. they have a fat person's body, just smaller.

Before someone says I'm being mean, you should know that I grew up as a REALLY fat kid, all the way up until I was 14 at which point I lost a lot of the weight.  So I can totally understand what if feels like to be judged.

by Tom Hanc on 02/14/2008 08:49:56 PM EST

[ Parent ]
shimmy shimmy cocoa pop (none / 0)
they use the word pop  in Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota. I think soda is a southern thing.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:41:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Chicago (none / 0)
and yes, "soda" is southern thing. But I could've used either and went for the alliteration.

The worst is places in the south that say "Coke" to mean any kind of soda/pop.  It just leads to poor communication in my opinion.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 04:08:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Na (none / 0)

The term soda is used all along the North East coast. NYC, Boston, etc.

They start calling it pop somewhere in eastern Pennsylvania (I know it is pop in Pittsburgh).

How far north and east it goes from there I do not know. 

by z1p101 on 02/15/2008 10:16:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Didn't it used to be called "soda pop" (none / 0)
I swear in older movies it was, in which case some areas took the soda while others took the pop.  How it became to be called that in the first place, I'm not sure.

Then again the "pop" from the bubbles might be a clue.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 10:40:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
On second thought (none / 0)
I changed the "pop" to Pepsi.  That way it translates across regions better and I get to keep the alliteration.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 09:30:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm with you 100% (none / 0)
I feel like the unrealistic thin image is definetly more the fault of women.  It's almost like the fact that we've said "fashion magazine make girls feel bad about themselves" so many times, that it's become self fulfilling.  I've never said/thought it at all.
I also agree on the whole fat/unhealthy thing.  Curves are great.  I love a woman with a good hourglass, but your body needs to function as it's intended (without diabetes, etc.).  As dangerous as being so thin is, it's even more dangerous to go the other way.
One other thing that I wanted to say in the other thread (which is a little less related to this) is that the porn magazines that I buy don't feature any model-esque women.  Even Playboy or the other mainstream magazines are too fake for me.  I buy more amateur stuff, and my girlfriend actually likes to look at it.  Not only because she thinks it's funny, but also because she can often times say "I look better than that girl" and actually be right.  They feature women of such diverse body types that it can actually be a confidence boost.
Overall, women need to relax about this.  No matter what you look like, there are men out there attracted to it (spend some time on the internet if you don't believe me.  I've actually seen a whole pay website dedicated to women with hairy arms for fucks sake.).

by Spencer on 02/14/2008 08:20:21 PM EST

I absolutely agree (none / 0)
It has been my experience that women, and not men, make the snide remarks about other women's weight.  I've also seen numerous gay guys do the same.  Studies have been done that show as long as a woman has a waste-line smaller than her hips, in other words, any variation of the hourglass figure, men will tend to find her attractive.  I know it's true of me.  (I love figure skater's big thick thighs, I always wanted to nibble on Dorothy Hamill's)

by bfaul on 02/14/2008 08:29:52 PM EST

Correction (none / 0)
This is who is picking The next supermodel



by Chinese Democracy on 02/14/2008 10:36:01 PM EST

Isn't that a brand new show? (none / 0)
Also, from what I understand he and his female partner pick female *and* male models (and this show is the the exception).

By the way, notice that most male models actually have desirable bodies as opposed to overly skinny ones.  Again, because it's *straight* women (and gay men) doing the choosing (rather than gay women and straight men).  Interesting how that works out...

by Tom Hanc on 02/14/2008 11:40:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
fa fa fashion (none / 0)
I get the we are told what is beautiful angle. But it changes with the times. Marylin Monroe for example is a bit more zophtic  and she is considered a timeless beauty. Up to our time. Nikki Taylor isnt a twig and she is a super model.

Vogue makes women starve themselves  video games make kids violent and commit crimes and ozzy made this kid commit suicide.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 12:48:30 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yeah, and the non-twig supermodels (none / 0)
are the ones that tend to work on projects that appeal to (straight) men.  That's why Nikki and Tyra used to be all over the *Sports Illustrated* Swimsuit issues.

I could be wrong, but most women and gay men tend to skip that particular for some reason.

Look at the GoDaddy.com girl.  Do you think she'd make it as a fashion model?  No way, she doesn't have twigs for arms, has breasts (granted, the boobs might be fake but you get the idea) and I assume a butt as well.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 12:47:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
that is a point (none / 0)
Ya know you do have a point.  On Tyra has anyone noticed her hair line is way back there like a balding old man?


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:42:52 PM EST

[ Parent ]
alien (none / 0)
Tyra looks like an alien from the neck up, her and Naomi Campbell...

by chrisandyasemin on 04/16/2008 03:57:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
according to feminist theory (none / 0)

women are as capable, as strong, as empowered, and as much in control of their own bodies and lives, as men are, except that the entire gender can be reduced to gorging themselves into becoming fat pigs or starving themselves into anorexic bulimics by men's unspoken desires for a certain body type.  i guess it is that old eurocentric, rationalistic, scientifically-minded, white-male patriarchy asserting itself.

 

the same feminists who condemn men for their perverse fascination with the "supermodel" body (flat chest, slender waist) also condemn men for their fascination with the "pornstar" body (siliconed chest, curvy waist). just can't keep that y-chromosome satisfied or consistent.

 

biologically determined standards of female beauty are all highly correlated with fecundity (predominantly, the waist-to-hip ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wik i/Waist-hip_ratio); this has been confirmed by many studies across cultures and time periods.

 

culturally determined standards of female beauty are based, instead, on rarity of body type. in today's world, it is easy to find fat women; it is rare to find rail-thin, sharp-featured models. supply and demand, it is as simple as that.

in an earlier time, when food was scarce, corpulence had its own cultural charm (and was also correlated with fecundity). times have changed, and so do the cultural standards of desirable body types.

by neo on 02/14/2008 11:50:46 PM EST

Not so fast... (none / 0)

It's not that easy to find fat women...  They're hidden in their houses all day.  But seriously folks...

I see skinny women all the time, so the supply and demand thing doesn't really fly with me.  But other than that I agree with you.

by Spencer on 02/15/2008 12:14:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Sure, there are cultural standards (none / 0)
And those standards can effect what we find attractive. But let's take that example of being overweight.

It's true there was a time when being overweight was viewed as a status symbol (if you had money you could binge all day).  But generally speaking, at the times and place in history where fatness was a good thing, the food was scarce and or the lifespan was much shorter than it is here in the present day.

So yes, the original purpose of storing all that fat was to have a savings account for calories to get you through a famine.  It makes perfect sense.  In a way, the obese people of today have great genes...or at least they would if our food supply was destroy for some reason and they had to survive for a month or their warped to an earlier time in history or another continent with food scarcity.

If people only lived to be in their 20's or 40's or *maybe* 50's, sure, but they often live into the 70's now, and with heart attacks, strokes, arthritis and so on, being overweight will likely cut into it or make it more complicated to say the least.

And again, the wast-hip ratio and symmetry both span just about every culture.  An interesting read (which now might be dated in some ways) is The Anatomy Of Love by Helen Fisher PhD. It talks about standards of beauty in different countries and also goes into how some things do transcend culture.  It also gets into a lot of other stuff about mate selection and reproduction and is an overall fascinating read.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 11:38:58 AM EST

[ Parent ]
all guys here so far? (none / 0)

I'm not sure I should touch this thread!!  Let's just say I don't agree 100% with anyone so far.  There are so many factors involved in physical attraction, from evolutionary to neurochemistry to culture to media.  But the question was: why do women feel pressure to be ultra thin?  I'm surprised at the notion expressed here that the presence of thin women in the media is the fault of straight women.  huh?  It might be more likely that the market for a lot of things is geared towards a super young male demographic--like 13-year-old boys.  And in terms of super-skinny models in the fashion industry, I think it's simply because clothes tend to look great on them.  But they have no boobs and look gaunt/starved when uncovered (in my opinion).  Anything not skin tight on a real curvy woman tends to make them look heavier. 

In summing up how women who are larger than "average" feel, it is probably a lot like men who are smaller than average feel.  How does a skinny 5'2" guy feel about his body?  It's not like the media is full of those either.  But I'm not convinced it is supply and demand.  There are too many evolutionary things going on.

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 12:56:27 AM EST

Solid points (none / 0)

Great.  Now I have to actually take a girl's perspective into account?  How dare you. 

When I mentioned this topic to my girlfriend, the first thing she said mirrored your points exactly (minus the example about small men at the end, which you're right on).

But thanks a lot.  Now I have to rethink my position (and I suspect I'm not alone in that).

by Spencer on 02/15/2008 01:11:57 AM EST

[ Parent ]
skinny (none / 0)

I think fashion models tend to be overly skinny because the fashion designers don't want the women to be overly-sexed.  A really sexy woman with curves would take away from the focus being on the clothes they are trying to show off--people would be too busy looking at their breasts. 

I'm actually more irritated with Playboy.  They've really promoted the plastic surgery industry in the past decade or so.  Women who don't fall into the C-D range feel like there is something terribly wrong with their breasts and will either get implants or reductions to make them look "normal" and I guess "sexy" but that's probably secondary.   

by schmoab on 02/15/2008 01:26:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Difference (none / 0)
I'm sorta with you there on the short guys...we're pretty much screwed (or more correctly not screwed...hardly ever!).  Then again we're lucky enough that girls can sometimes be attracted to personality, brains, or money. 

Ugly girls arn't so lucky.  It's not that guys are shallow it's just that a girl has to acheive a certain level of hotness before any of that other stuff counts for anything (that level depends upon the guy and how realistic his expectations are of course). 

by alphasigmookie on 02/15/2008 03:01:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
this is important (none / 0)
Men seem to be very visually oriented when it comes to attraction.  Women seem a little more that way when younger, but are much more likely to consider the whole package and things like intelligence become very important the older a woman gets.  Again, it's probably a result of our evolutionary past, when women may have been looking for more than just brawn when it comes to a good provider. 

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:03:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
True (none / 0)
Generally speaking, men have it easier if they're considered to be less attractive (we're speaking superficially here) because they are judged in other ways as well.

Then again (still speaking superficially here) money tends to be the man's version of being super hot, i.e. a rich man is like a hot woman.  Will either attract a quality, down to earth partner rather than just a physically attractive one?  That's another story and depends on what they want and what they offer in other less superficial ways (personality, intelligence, etc.).

Although I would point out that increasingly, the gap between physical expectations between men and women is closing.  I don't think it will EVER close (women will alawys have more pressure and held to higher physical standards overal), but it's true that more and more men are portrayed as having it all (great face, tight body, sensitive yet strong and tough, lots of money, great with kids, respectful, creative but not too wacky, etc).

It goes back to tv and movies, where characters with often contradictory traits fill romantic comedies and create SuperMan Alpha-Males that probably don't exist in real life.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 04:35:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
an observation (none / 0)
The practical considerations for models aside,  I still maintain that it is peer pressure from women that drives the obsession with weight.  The female models are not aimed at 13-year old males, they're aimed at other women.  Don't believe me?  Pick up a copy of Cosmopolitan and scan through it.  In college my sister, who lived near campus, used to keep a bunch of them in a stand by the sofa.  I'd go through them just to drool at the sexy pictures of good-looking women in skimpy clothes.  I was very suprised to find relatively few pictures of men it, but tons of pictures of women, many posed in very suggestive ways.

by bfaul on 02/15/2008 09:36:06 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Exactly (none / 0)
Thank you.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 11:02:24 AM EST

[ Parent ]
But Americans arent skinny (none / 0)
All this talk of skinny . Has anyone noticed that there is an obesity epidemic going on in this country? Americans are fat . In the Uk they always refer to Americans as fat ,its the running joke.  I think the latest statistics are over half of the population of this country are either obese or just over weight. Instead of focusing on homosexuals forcing women to be skinny. I find it much more interesting that an obese woman is suing McDonalds because she claims they made her Obese. The health care costs alone because of obesity in this country is insane.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 11:14:28 AM EST

[ Parent ]
It's a huge problem (no pun intended) (none / 0)
I totally agree, it is very interesting.  Then again, it's not necessarily all that surprising.

Considering how humans evolved (again, to be relatively active and store calories like crazy), what do you think would happen with an absurdly abundant food supply and jobs that often require minimal caloric expenditure?

Plus, especially here in the US, marketers have gone all out to the produce the most fattening, delicious and *convenient* foods known to man.  Restaurants (both fast and slow) continually raise the bar on gluttony by trying to outdo each other with huge portions for low, low prices.

Lots of salt, (hydrogenated and saturated) fat, refined carbs and sugars...most of these foods are designed to ultimately make you want to snack again in a few hours and they do an awful job of giving you *sustained* energy.  There's also a TON of corn in just about everything we eat, which has it's own set of problems.

Obviously there must be some level of personal responsibility.  You can't (or shouldn't) sue anyone for making you fat.  At the same time, it can't JUST be responsibility issues that make Americans so much fatter.  For example, IMO, we're also a car obsessed culture overall, especially here in the suburbs.  People will drive to places that are a few minutes away.

Since moving from the city, I always feel strange crossing a busy street here...I bet some people think I'm poor or a really old looking kid!

At any rate, there are a lot of factors at play (yes, including genetics). But WRT kids, I do think it's critical to have gym classes in schools (even though I HATED them having been a fat kid), and that school lunches are usually a bunch of garbage. 

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 11:52:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
funny (none / 0)
lol @ really old looking kid . When its busy people are just trying to get across the street before the damn light changes .


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:44:42 PM EST

[ Parent ]
women's self-confidence (none / 0)
I believe there was a study that showed that women feel badly about their bodies immediately after looking at fashion magazines.  I do think they can fuel feelings of inferiority and eating disorders. 
With regards to the 13-year-old males, I was referring more to the movie industry. 

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:06:43 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Of course you should touch this thread! (none / 0)
Notice at the end of my post I mentioned that I was only providing some gross generalizations and that it's a complicated issue.  I also mentioned that biology plays a HUGE role, a role that is far too often dismissed by most people In my experience.

Waist hip-ratio is one thing that spans cultures, but another factor that's equally important is symmetry.

I think a lot of people just think it's almost entirely society that determines what others find attractive and that's simply not true.  If anything, society (or should I say, those who want to sell us something) simply plays on our *natural* desires and maybe exaggerates them (think fake boobs, makeup, lighting, airbrushing).

Now, desertpear, we have to make a distinction here between "skinny" and "ultra-skinny".  You started to blur the line when you wrote "women in the media".  I don't think the sexy women on Fox News for example can be compared to the Kate Moss's of the world.  If we want to have that discussion, tha's fine, but that wasn't my original intent.


But it's not just supply and demand either.  If the world was filled with tall guys (let's say everyone was 6'2)  I seriously doubt the short guys would suddently be a hot commodity(average height is 5,10 for men BTW).

There's a reason taller guys are sought after that's spanned history and goes back to the caveman days. If marketers made a concerted effort to make short cool, it might have *some* impact but it would be far less successful than a campaign to make a natural, widespread desire even cooler.

And obviously there are evolutionary explanations for why men prefer large breasts. The problem is of course that marketers have raised the bar and with surgery, lighting, super-bras (and finding the women who naturally have these things), etc, although again that applies to men with cut jaws and six-pack abs.  Same thing with darker people with light eyes (it happens but obviously it's less common, but that's why there are contacts, right?).

At any rate, supply and demand is relevant here because in the end, we all lose.  Both men and women, gay and straight.  There really IS a limited supply of people who have ALL of these characteristics (a great waist hip ratio, symmetrical face and body, larger breasts, light eyes and so on) we shouldn't expect to find them very often in every day life.  (Granted, those of you in LA have a better shot than some but still).

Same with men that are tall, dark and handsome (with a chiseled jaw, non-receeding hairline, six-pack, big but not too big, etc.).  But every day we're bombarded by images of this small subset of (biologically) alpha males and females, which tricks us (consciously or not) into thinking that the supply of them is great.  Again, we might know on the surface that's not true, but it does effect us in some way.

And on top of it as I said, surgery, make-up, lighting and airbrushing take these alpha people and make their appearance completely unrealistic in any way for anyone to acheive without these things, and that applies for women *and* men.  Not to mention the fact that people who act or model can usually afford (financially and time wise) to have surgery, or workout all the time, or hire a personal chef/trainer, etc.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 11:25:27 AM EST

[ Parent ]
higly doubtful (none / 0)
what percentage of women fit the sizes models wear on the runway and in print?  I dont think there is any danger of American women becoming "super skinny" en mass any time soon. Like I pointed out in an earlier post. Americans are Obese they arent in any danger from being to thin.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 11:43:58 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Highly doubtful we're communicating clearly here (none / 0)
Where did you get that idea? Did I ever say I thought there was a danger that most woman would become ultra-thin, explicitly or implicitly? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.


And I agree, Americans ARE in far more danger of becoming obese these days.  In fact, I pointed out before that I'm annoyed when overweight people use the dangers of being ultra-thin as an excuse to go to the other extreme, as if being fat is healthy and "normal" in the sense that it's to be desired.

For the record, people who are skinny are NOT necessarily healthy, not at all, especially if they eat junk food and never exercise.  With that said, there is mounting evidence that being overweight alone is an independent risk factor for heart attacks, strokes and diabetes.


by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 12:02:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
yup it was (none / 0)
Yea it was implied . In fact it was more than implied it was laid out in detail how homosexuals and Elle  Magazine are forcing women to conform  so they have to purge and binge.


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:46:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
No one is literally "forcing" anyone (none / 0)
to do anything.

But it's a false dichotomy to suggest that either these things "force" behavior alone OR that they have NO or minimal impact. Realistically it's somewhere in between, any I'm coming from the perspective that a LOT of people DO point to straight men as the main culprit WRT super thin models.

And I said it was complicated and I was generalizing (I even gave a Gross Generalization Alert before I wrote that particular line!).

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 04:12:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
it is complicated (none / 0)
I didn't disagree with what you said, and I think you are totally right about evolutionary roots.  We seem to be discussing several different things here.  A woman's conception of her body is different than how attractive she may be to a man.  Even when I feel slightly overweight, I feel unattractive inside, even though it may actually accentuate my curves and make me more attractive to men.  I do think this conception of myself has been influenced by the preponderance of young thin women in the media, for better or worse.  My awareness of it doesn't seem to completely erase the feeling.  Since I am short and curvy, if I wear loose clothes (or all the clothes we need in the Pacific Northwest to keep warm), I tend to look "fat."   ; But whatever ;)

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:20:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Clothes look great on super skinny women? (none / 0)
See, this kind of proves my point. I DON'T think most straight men agree.

A 10 year old boy runway model in a cool outfit is just a 10 year old boy in a cool outfit.  By contrast, an attractive, healthy woman in a cool outfit is, well, an attractive healthy women who makes the clothes look even better.

Do you think most clothing designers are straight men? How about the people that do their makeup and hair?
 
Sure, *some* of them are straight men but from what I've seen, the overwhelming majority of people in that industry are women and gay men.  That would also explain some of the ridiculous hair and makeup they do. The end result may be "artistic", but often times it sure as hell doesn't look attractive.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 12:42:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Actually, I take it back (none / 0)
The pictures I included above *might* turn you on if you're a parrot or some other type of wild bird.  If that's the case you can read English and use the internet, so please email me because I think we can make some $$$.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 01:12:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's all about dating (none / 0)
The problem is that women are less likely or totally refuse to ask men out.  If you get all your dates by passively attracting people rather than taking an active role, you have to worry about your looks a lot more because your looks are the main way you're going to find a partner.

by adamandruth on 02/15/2008 11:17:03 AM EST

Advertising (none / 0)

I'm firmly convinced that the body image problem - both in females and, increasingly, in males - is squarely in the lap of advertising and the access to advertising.

Today we are bombarded with advertising. For the average American, middling estimates seem to be 1,600 advertising messages a day. I've seen estimates up to 5,000. Each one of these can range from just some guy trying his best to make you believe that you want his product to a corporation that has done extensive research on mental states conjured up by certain word pairs and such. And frankly, most of the media we are exposed to today falls more firmly in that later category, or is an imitation of an ad that does.

We're twisting our own brains. Each ad in and of itself does no damage, but when we've been bombarded with so many, each trying to outdo the previous, we're shaping the "ideal world view" of a whole generation into something that is not only pure fiction, but dangerous.

Acording to nedic.ca, more than 80% of American 10 year olds restrict their eating. TEN YEAR OLDS.

In the interest of disclosure, I'm a 34 year old fat chick. I've worn the same clothing size since high school. I'm not upset about my size, but I'm accepting - after all, I tried to change it for more than 10 years by everything from starvation dieting to atkins and more.
 

by Sand on 02/15/2008 11:17:28 AM EST

it must not be working (none / 0)
If thats true, then why are over 60% of Americans over weight?


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 11:45:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Personally, my vote is plastics and chemicals (none / 0)
I've been thinking a lot about plastics recently.
It started when I read that the ubiquitous Nalgene bottles - which everyone in my office building seems to have one or more of (and I'm drinking from right now...) - are suspected of leaching bisphenol A (BPA), a suspected hormone disruptor, into the water that we then drink.

"Levels of 0.1 to 10 ppb of BPA, which are orders of magnitude above what can affect humans, are currently found in U.S. bodies,"
- Frederick vom Saal, Ph.D., a developmental biologist at the University of Missouri and lead author of one of the studies on BPA's effects.

BPA can leak from the linings of cans (nearly all can liners - even those for organic food - contain BPA). Plastic water bottles, baby bottles and dental sealants can all leach BPA. Wine is made in vats that have a resin lining that contains BPA.

It's still controversial to label BPA as a health risk, but some scientists have performed animal studies that have shown that exposure to BPA in the womb raises the risk of some cancers, lowers the resultant child's fertility and could contribute to behavioral problems such as hyperactivity.

Ninety-five percent of Americans were found to have the chemical in their urine in a 2004 monitoring study by the CDC.

BPA seems to mimic naturally occurring estrogen, which controls the development of the brain, the reproductive system and many other systems in the developing fetus.

The plastics industry denies that BPA is harmful in the doses that are present in humans, which are much lower than the amount set by the EPA in the 1980s. The threshold was set using high dose toxicity studies in rats that didn't look at hormone disruption in the rats or their offspring.

"That's why early toxicity studies found that the high doses were safe. The studies didn't look at the low doses that are now proving to cause a myriad of harmful effects in animals, including chromosomal damage in female egg cells and an increase in embryonic death in mice. A follow-up to this is a study indicating a relationship of BPA blood levels to miscarriages in Japanese women,"
- Frederick vom Saal, Ph.D

In 1998, geneticist Patricia Hunt noticed that the mice cells she was using had increased chromosomal damage - it shot up from 1 or 2% to 40%. She traced the damage to polycarbonate water bottles and cages that had been washed in a harsh detergent. Once the effected items were replaced with non-polycarbonate plastic, the error rates resumed their lower rate.

A January 2006 study indicates that BPA may enhance the risk of developing Type II diabetes. Angel Nadal, Ph.D., and his team at the University of Miguel Hernández de Elche in Alicante, Spain, found that BPA altered the function of the insulin producing cells in the pancreas of the mice.
Another study on mice, done by Ana Soto, M.D., a professor and researcher at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston, found that BPA exposure while in the womb altered  mamary gland development at puberty.
Another study showed that if a mouse was exposed to BPA at levels that are around the range of common human exposure, the exposure resulted in chromosomally abnormal grandchildren with no further exposure.

Human studies on BPA have been too limited to reveal much, most having too small a sample to be counted as significant.
One of the small-sample studies found that blood levels ob BPA were three times higher in women who had suffered recurrent miscarriages. Another linked BPA to fibroids, adenomysois and cystic ovaries.

This isn't even the scariest thing about plastics. The scariest thing is how long they've been around. Basically, plastics have only been around since after World War II in any significant way. A little over 60 years. And we have no idea what they are doing to us.

Every day, we live in an ongoing experiment of environmental pollutants where we are the subjects.

BPA in our water bottles. PCBs and lead in the soil. Our cooking pans have PFOA. Diacetyl in our microwave popcorn. Declining testosterone levels in our men. Adult-onset asthma. Phthalates regularly used in neonatal intensive care units and adult sex aids.

It is sobering and terrifying - and COMPLETELY unavoidable.
For more information on plastics in our environment, please read the online excerpt from Alan Weisman's book "The World Without Us."

by Sand on 02/15/2008 12:26:12 PM EST

[ Parent ]
how about this? (none / 0)
Something I heard that rings true with me:
With exercise, a nutritious diet, and an open mind, anyone can be attractive.

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 03:12:16 PM EST

That sounds good but (none / 0)
That sounds good but Im still for going under the knife. I mean look at Joan Rivers she morphed from a mere woman into a spectacle!


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 03:48:04 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Since you brought it up (none / 0)
there are a LOT of misconceptions about nutrition and exercise that are generally accepted by most people.

The biggest for women is that they shouldn't work out with weights because it will make them look bulky and won't burn that many calories compared to cardio.

Both of those things are pure and utter bullshit.  Most overweight women (or women in general for that matter) would be far better served by a decent weight training program (in conjuction with some degree of cardio) than they would be by cardio alone.

Weight training strengthens bones and connective tissue, something that's unique to that form of exercise (sprinting is the exception but who sprints?) and is especially important with the high rates of osteperosis.
 
Not to mention that cardio generally only burns calories *during* exercise vs weight training which burns calories during *and* after when tissue repair kicks in. Also, every pound of muscle you add requires that your body burn another 20-40 calories a day (according to the most recent estimates I've seen).

So if someone adds 5 lbs of muscle (which is NOT that hard to do with a moderate weight training program and a few months or so), they'll be burning an extra 150 calories a day just to maintain that muscle (meaning you could go to a reduced maintenance routine 2 days a week or something).  That might not sound like much but that would mean you'd lose over FIFTEN POUNDS a year!

Contrast that with cardio where you only burn calories *during* the activity, because (again, unless you're sprinting) you're not really building much muscle (often times it can actually burn muscle depending on your caloric intake).

Finally, weight training also increases functional strength, which is much more helpful in every day life.  Think about it, when do you jog or run other than when playing sports or working out?  By contrast, how often do you shovel, carry groceries, pick up your kids (or your lover)?  Exactly.

PS---Think about this for a second. Which group has a better body generally speaking, marathon runners or sprinters?  Both are at the extremes, but the answer is obvious...sprinters (who engage in high intensity activity)!  It's not even close. Lots of low intensity cardio just doesn't build the kind of body that *most* people find attractive.

Don't get me wrong, if someone wants to do it to build endurance or run a marathon, more power to them, it takes a lot of dedication and persistance! But if they think they're building a body that will have wide appeal, they're wrong IMO, as are the people who think that only jogging/walking every day is the best and only way (obviously some people have joint conditions and can't do high intensity exercise, I get it, and yes it's better than nothing).

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 04:29:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I agree with this also. (none / 0)
I might add that muscle is known to be more dense than fat.  This means that someone who adds some additional muscle may actually over time see a net gain in weight even as they remain the same size or even reduce in size.  I knew a girl who was freaking out because she was gaining weight after she had been working out regurlarly for a while, yet she looked great.  I spent a lot of time trying to convince her not to be so obsessed with how hard gravity was pulling at her but to measure her progress by checking her measurements to see if she was increasing or decreasing in size.  After doing that for a while she began to calm down but still occasionally obsesses about that scale.  Sheesh.

by bfaul on 02/15/2008 05:16:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I agree too (none / 0)
I used to work out with weights religiously 5 days a week when I was younger (I'm in my mid-40s now) and I never liked my body more or felt more self confident.  I did do a lot of cardio at the same time though.  I guess I had more time for working out when I was younger.  It sucks that most of us sit at computers all day now instead of getting our exercise doing constructive things.

by desertpear on 02/15/2008 05:28:35 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I am shocked! (none / 0)
Shocked! I cant believe anyone would say that a good healthy computer addiction isnt  constructive. Posting on blogs may change the world. It will be a fat saggy world but changed none the less!


by Chinese Democracy on 02/15/2008 05:39:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Another misconception most people have is (none / 0)
that you need to work out 5-7 days a week. Nothing could be further from the truth!

Most people can get a very nice body if they do a good, full body workout 3 days a week (coupled with a solid diet of course).

The problem is a lot of people get pumped up for some special event or New Year's and they go too far and have very vague goals (i.e., I'm going to "get in shape").  They do this instead of easing into a sustainable lifestyle change that they can actually stick to, including reasonable, measurable and specific goals (I'm going to lose at least 1lb each week and go to the gym 3 days a week).

You have people go straight from the beer, chips and the couch to working out for 2 hours a day, 5 days a week while eating the same chicken breast and rice meal over and over again.  Of course they give up after a few weeks, because such a routine is boring, excessive and just plain unsustainable (not to mention unnecessary) for 99% of the population.

Then the mistakenly believe (or make the excuse) that they can't get into shape because they'd have to spend 100 hours a week on it while eating cardboard and water every day.

Don't get me wrong, I put on my winter weight too (anyone who doesn't live in the south or CA understands) so I know how hard it is.  But the first step is to know *what* to do before you can actually do it.  So in that regard I can't 100% blame some people who can never get in shape, because they honestly don't know what they're doing and think they have to be extreme about it to get any results.

by Tom Hanc on 02/15/2008 05:43:02 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Gay Men/Straight Women (none / 0)
First and foremost,

It amazes me that a few hundred years ago in England, being a woman with a "little meat on your bones" meant that he or she was apart of the elite society and also able to supply food in your tummy each night.

Another note is that for several years before colonization started and people were travelling to other parts of the world for exploratioin and food from....(you figure) would carry a small object out of clay, stone or some other material in the shape of http://www.mama.org/vaults/ goddess/graphics/willen02.j pg
Willendorf or Willow Goddess is what some call it. To resmble their original mother or homeland. 

Another note that I ran across on how we as human beings percieve the human body, is that when the Greeks took over Egypt and noticed the heiroglyphics and how all paintings had a set view on how the body was percived (thin). Once the Greeks took over Egypt and started to spread their ruling, they continued to use the image that the Egyptians used on their heiroglyphics. A thin man or woman. This is something I saw in a documentary on The Discovery Channel....just a thought.

"Everything That Is Green...Is KeeN"

by GGooDie on 02/15/2008 06:05:07 PM EST

Men Vs Women On Body Type: Why The Disconnect? | 50 comments (50 topical, 0 hidden)
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