Dem Candidates on Signing Statements

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Is the honeymoon already over?  Both Clinton and Obama are backing away from a pledge to eschew using signing statements if elected.

This is the first major policy screw-up from my perspective.  I expected either of them to begin with some real post-Bush house cleaning, and his egregious abuse of the back-door line item veto known as signing statements was high on my list.  Hell, Obama's fact sheet specifically calls out a pledge not to use them to alter intent of Congress; yet, here he is, waffling just as badly as Clinton on the issue:

Democrats won't commit to ending use of signing statements

Color me annoyed with both of them.

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Come on Spinny. You must realize that once the Executive Breach of Power has been established, that the incoming administration wouldn't just give up that sort of authority! Imagine with a Democratic Congress and President whatt the potential is for abuse of things like signing statements!!!

Change...whatever....

by bobo1 on 02/25/2008 03:00:09 PM EST


A little let down the honeymoon had to end so soon.

Unlike some fool fanatic freak I've always known full well no politician is the answer to all the world's ills.  Obama and I disagree on a couple of points already, he's just the best fit for what I want.  

This particular issue is one I had higher hopes for than seems to be realistic, is all.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 02/25/2008 03:38:15 PM EST

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Good, I'm glad. The pendulum swings both ways. I find it ironic that Supreme Court nominees often backfire in the long run. Stevens, the most progressive member of the Court was considered a moderate republican and was nominated by Gerry Ford, mouthpiece for Tricky Dick: father of the neo-cons, advocate of the imperial presidency, and possibly the creator or the modern notion of the unitary executive theory. Um, that one backfired. Big time. Did anyone think that when Bush was running roughshod over the Constitution (and with the neo-con foxnews double-speak at the same time doing it in the very name of the Constitution) that it would not at some point come back to haunt them?

I think it is fucking awesome. Turn swords into plowshares. Use their own tools of destruction against them. Perhaps when Barack (or Hillary) is president, he/she can use signing statements to thwart Congressional attempts to bypass rewriting the capital gains tax (Barack has pledged to raise them back to pre-Clinton 30 percent, Hillary up to 20 percent) and the rest of  Rep. Rangell's measures.

I think it is also important to note that a signing statement does not have to be used as a "backdoor line item veto" and that it can be used for something closer to the intent of the real purpose for which it was created. Let's take Clinton's watershed off-road vehicle forestry thingy, his last major act, where he left an environmental legacy equal to TR or Ike. (Now it seems to be more fashionable to have Peace-in-the-Middle-East, or at least the photo-op.)

Let's say that consumer advocate par excellence Ralph Nader hadn't run in 2000 and that Gore won both the popular and electoral college vote and wasn't robbed of the presidency. And then let us say that the Republican led congress passed bills to allow for ATV's, snow mobiles and the like in places like Jellystone. But what if this hypothetical law was then used by logging companies as an excuse to build roads into protected groves, woodlands and habitats, and to thereby gain access to old growth. Gore could have then written a signing statement on the law, not enacting his own law, nor dismissing the law altogether, nor even stepping on the Court's third branch right to interpret. Merely stating the scope by which the law should be enforced.

Gore might want to outlaw ATV's and snowmobiles from places like Jellystone. In this hypothetical situation, that would be acting like Bush (in terms of the signing statements, Bush would never want to outlaw anything as fun or freewheeling as smog smokemachine snowmobiles or four wheelers). Bush has used signing statements to legalize torture and illegal wiretapping, but as much as I'm against those things I'm not against the signing statement if used correctly. And by correctly I don't mean for liberal causes or green ones either.  

The point is, if a law is being used to create a loophole that could take two years to reach the court, the executive branch has the right to define the scope by which it should be enforced, not gut it nor ignore it, merely define it.

The larger issues of the line item veto, the unitary executive, earmarks, pork barrel spending, the federal budget deficit, top secret earmarks, the bridge to nowhere, lobbyists and John McCain's lace undies fund (you know, the stash of cash for those "special" lobbyists) still need to be dealt with though. Barack Obama and Ted Kennedy, A New Vision of Hope with the Experience to Get the Job Done!

by tiggerporn on 02/26/2008 01:49:35 AM EST


"The larger issues of the line item veto, the unitary executive, earmarks, pork barrel spending, the federal budget deficit, top secret earmarks, the bridge to nowhere, lobbyists and John McCain's lace undies fund (you know, the stash of cash for those 'special' lobbyists) still need to be dealt with though."

Yes, there is still a pile of housecleaning to do to hose the filth out of the Oval Office.  An executive order retroactively canceling signing statements and banning their future use is probably a pie in the sky hope.

Where I see your enthusiasm about a "good" use for them, when people espouse politicians getting extraordinary powers so they can do good things unfettered I always suggest you then consider the damage that will be done when your worst nightmare gets those same powers.  In this case the nightmare has already happened, but you get the idea.  I want to see the door closed, firmly.

If the President has problems with (or concerns about) the scope or intent of a bill he/she/it should send it back for corrected wording before signing it.  Unless the Congress was actually counting on that wording to enable some skulduggery (no, do they do that?) they should have no problem tightening it up promptly and sending it back.  

I think we need to put the genie back into the bottle on this one.

"If you're not pumped up, then get the hell out, 'cause you don't belong here." -- Cenk Uygur

by Spinny on 02/26/2008 08:11:43 AM EST

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Ya, I know I've had a lot of pent up rage at the past 8 years, at the way the elections were stolen, all the abuses of power, and I guess I would like to see some payback. So in truth, while I tried to come off very high minded and talking about intent and all that jazz, the truth was really I'd like to see some people get what they've got coming to them. Payback's a bitch, anon anon. Hopefully Barack or whomever the nominee is if they eventually win the office will actually be more high minded and not just trying to appear so, and will take the high road.

I guess at some point you have to just grow up and stop playing tit for tat cause there is just no end to that game. I guess I just feel that Congress has been running the same way for 100 years, at least, and that the cronyism and phonyism isn't going to just stop overnight, and if you get rid of earmarks they will find some other way around it.

I've been really hesitent to jump on the Obama bandwagon only because, ya know, don't want to dare to hope and all that, feel that is for suckers, just a lot of rhetoric, all talk no action kind of stuff. I understand that power corrupts. I guess I just feel if Barack isn't just hype, he seems to speak truthfully, then if you give him all the tools at his disposal and don't tie his hands behind his back, he could do some truly wonderful things. I see your point though that if he is all that, he won't need the abuses, or temptations of the abuses, that the neocons have so successfully employed against freedom, hope and the opportunities they afford all of us in the future. 

by tiggerporn on 02/26/2008 04:25:05 PM EST

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