Former Republican Congressman Mickey Edwards Enters Rebel HQ

Email Print posted by yturks 03/18/2008 09:35:59 PM EST

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Cenk discusses true Conservatism with Congressman Mickey Edwards.

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Former Republican Congressman Mickey Edwards Enters Rebel HQ | 22 comments (22 topical, 0 hidden)
AWESOME interview! (none / 0)
This is what being a conservative used to be about!  It was so refreshing to hear good common sense coming out of a Republican.  His indictment of Newt's shift of focus from being right on the issues to just beating the other party was so dead on target.  Why O why couldn't the party be controlled by people like this instead of by the neo-cons?

Thanks for letting "the other guys" have a say, Cenk, it was great stuff.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 10:44:12 AM EST

Eh, yes and no (none / 0)
He referenced Reagan a few times.

To avoid the wrath of Mr. Fred, I'll keep this short.

You can argue things were over-taxed, overegulated and over unionized in the 70's and that Reagan's methods were just in response to that, but if you accept that premise, you have to also accept that he went WAY too far in the other direction.
 
And yes, registered lobbyists soared, as did the flood of undocumented workers, increasing labor supply and driving down wages and benefits, along with RR's union busting ways. Oh yes, and Reagan tripled the national debt. Conservative my ass!

And aside from Clinton raising taxes slightly, he really did nothing about it. If anything, he just added to deregulation.

PS---The conservative mentioned Reagan's quote about government. But the thing is, Reagan has OTHER quotes that DO rip the shit out of government *in context* (same deal with the Grover Norquist types who love(d) Reagan):

"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 11:33:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I got better (none / 0)
I was a Reagan Republican; voted for him both times.  Voted for Bush Senior the first time, too.  You want to talk about Kool-Aide drinkers?  There you are.

I did wake up, eventually, and I do recognize that Reagan was no conservative at all.  He was a tax and spend Liberal of the worst sort, but he managed to convince his sheeple of the opposite.  He also laid the foundation for the religious right to hijack the party--which was my cue to exit stage left.

I'm not in my trance, no, but I also don't feel the hate.  I just decided it wasn't for me.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 11:44:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I forgot about the religious right part (none / 0)
Thanks for reminding me.

"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."-Grover Norquist, True American Hero

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 11:49:56 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Maybe something to consider (none / 0)
Bear in mind I'm an "Obamabot."  Still, look back on Reagan's tenure.  He did pretty much whatever he wanted, but all the while he was the "great communicator."  People to this day rhapsodize about his conservative credentials in spite of the fact he was anything but conservative (except on some social issues).  People gave him a bye on most everything, mainly on the strength of his ability to get people behind his grand vision statements.

Sound like someone we know?

Not saying it's a bad thing, but methinks it bears noting.  Maybe his invoking the "R-word" (no, the other one) wasn't such a stretch after all.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 11:59:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Wait a minute... (none / 0)
I just realized you wrote this: "He was a tax and spend Liberal of the worst sort" in reference to Reagan.

No, no, no.  He was a BORROW and spend conservative. 

Tax and spend might annoy people, but borrow and spend is living beyond our means, and it kills the value of our dollars, makes people think they can get something for nothing (you know, like free war!) and ultimately reduces the amount of tax money we can put towards things we want in the long run, because we're too busy making interest payments.

I couldn't let that phrasing pass. 

Reagan created a generation of tax-averse people who are *overly* skeptical that government can do anything good for them, which is a horrible double whammy.  It's not like people embraced all taxes and government before, so there was really no need for Reagan to push everyone over that cliff.

Sadly, no one since him (including Clinton) has done much to reverse the damage done, other than slight tax increases (that aren't even halfway toward what they were before Reagan slashed them).

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 11:54:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The reason I said "tax" (none / 0)
was to underscore the fact that he actually RAISED taxes during his tenure.  Reagan-devotees seem to forget that.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 12:00:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Cenk says that all the time (none / 0)
Reagan instituted the largest personal income tax cut ever, if I remember correctly.  This applies mostly to the rich, as the top marginal tax rate (the one that kicks in AFTER someone earns their first 3+ million dollars) was slashed from 70% to 28%.

He did not not even come CLOSE to reversing that, and more importantly, I wouldn't be proud of the fact that his largest tax increase was on social security.

SS is only taxed on the first $93k or so of income. Rather than raising the cap (so that it wouldn't be just middle class people being taxed on 100% of their income for social security), he doubled the tax, whacking middle class families harder, as a percentage of income.

He proceeded, with the advice of Alan Greenspan, to spend hundreds of billions of dollars from the social security trust fund, to help make up for his massive tax cuts for the rich and massive spending.

Again, conservative my ass.

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 12:08:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yep (none / 0)
Some might object to my use of the word "Liberal" to describe Reagan's taxing and profligate spending, but they're just in denial.  Government grew under him--he put over 50 thousand new people on the federal payroll.  By contrast Clinton cut those rolls by well over 300 thousand--anyone going to call Clinton a conservative?  I didn't think so.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 12:13:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Clinton was one of our best (none / 0)
moderate republican presidents.

;)

Socially, he was a liberal, but so is every other democrat for the most part.

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 12:15:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
explaining social security (none / 0)
Social Security withholding is capped somewhere around the first $96,000 in salary. Anything you earn above this number is not taxed.

But if withholding is capped, so are benefits. Upon retirement, the largest check that an individual can receive is around $2300 per month.

It's OK with me if you want to triple the withholding cap to $300,000, so long as you to triple the monthly retirement benefit check to $6900.

Currently, Social Security is an inefficient, but fair retirement scheme. You get out of it roughly what you put into it.

Compare this with the Bush Social Security Privitization plan. If you put $5000 into an S&P 500 Index fund when a baby is born, and never touch it, the account will be worth roughly $4 million when the baby reaches age 65. George Bush wanted to divert some of the social security money into the market so everyone could be wealthy. But alas, Democrats would have none of it. 

by KenTX on 03/19/2008 01:32:50 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Here is the question again. (none / 0)
Outside of military spending, can you provide examples of massive spending cuts initiated by Democrats?

Can you provide examples of massive tax cuts initiated by Democrats?

by KenTX on 03/19/2008 01:39:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'm waiting. (none / 0)
Are you guys having difficulty answering this question?

by KenTX on 03/19/2008 01:47:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Um (none / 0)
Government grew less under Clinton than Reagan or Bush.

Clinton is the only one that balanced the budget.

He also reduced welfare, and other things I can't think of off the top of my head.

Nice try champ.

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 02:08:03 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh, sorry ... (none / 0)
We were busy discussing what a colossal f&$%-up Reagan turned out to be.  Did you have some pertinent anecdotes to add?

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 02:18:33 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Are you mentally retarded? (none / 1)
I'm serious.

"I do recognize that Reagan was no conservative at all. He was a tax and spend Liberal of the worst sort."

Do you remember Reagan's CBO Director, David Stockman, and the "meat axe" budget cuts? Do you remember the howls from the Democrats? Do you remember the huge tax cuts?

Outside of military spending, where have Democrats ever promoted spending cuts? Where have Democrats ever promoted tax cuts?

This forum is full of stupid participants, but you are well beyond stupid.


by KenTX on 03/19/2008 12:01:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]
So long as you keep amusing me (none / 0)
You are welcome.  Have a nice day.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 12:05:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Mondale would have been proud (none / 0)
From Joshua Green:

"It's conservative lore that Reagan the icon cut taxes, while George H.W. Bush the renegade raised them. As Stockman recalls, "No one was authorized to talk about tax increases on Ronald Reagan's watch, no matter what kind of tax, no matter how justified it was." Yet raising taxes is exactly what Reagan did. He did not always instigate those hikes or agree to them willingly--but he signed off on them. One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year's reduction. (In a bizarre bit of self-deception, Reagan, who never came to terms with this episode of ideological apostasy, persuaded himself that the three-year, $100 billion tax hike--the largest since World War II--was actually "tax reform" that closed loopholes in his earlier cut and therefore didn't count as raising taxes.)

Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 with a gasoline tax and once more in 1984, this time by $50 billion over three years, mainly through closing tax loopholes for business. Despite the fact that such increases were anathema to conservatives--and probably cost Reagan's successor, George H.W. Bush, reelection--Reagan raised taxes a grand total of four times just between 1982-84. "

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 12:09:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
See there again (none / 0)
Doubling the social security tax whacks middle class families.

Raising the gasoline tax whacked middle class families harder (I realize everyone drives but I think you know what I'm saying).

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 12:18:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
You cut spending first (none / 0)
Then, if you've been a good cost-cutting boy, your reward is you get to cut taxes to match the new savings.  It doesn't work the other way around, history as my witness.

Why is that so hard for some people to grasp?

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 12:34:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
But the goal shouldn't (none / 0)
be to just view it in terms of either cutting or raising taxes.

The goal should be how do we benefit the vast majority of Americans (by making them as safe, healthy and productive as possible) with more *or less* (or more efficient and effective) tax funded programs.

This includes our military, our educational system, head start programs (to prevent kids from turning to crime and drugs which cost far more in the long run) our roads and public transporation, investments in alternative energy, and on and on.

It's hilarious when people complain out here in Chicago that there are so many pot holes and that not enough is done to fix it.  Yet these same people bitch SO loudly when a tiny tax increase related to repairing roads (which continue to decay and only get more expensive the longer we wait to fix them) is brought up.

It's not just bums wanting hand outs that want something for nothing, it's anyone that wants taxes to get lower and lower and lower while still complaining about education, health care and infrastructure.

Or people who want tax cuts during war. That's INSANE!

We need to find a more reasonable balance here.  This issue has been framed horribly since Reagan, to the detriment of most Americans.

by ihavenobias on 03/19/2008 12:46:44 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think we're in agreement, here. (none / 0)
Cenk said yesterday that, while he was certainly once a Republican, he was probably never a conservative.  Given that the meaning of that word has come to me to mean a person who embraces bigotry, hypocrisy, greed, and any number of other base and harmful qualities (sorry, Congressman, it's more than your party that was hijacked), I feel compelled to say (with pride) I was apparently never a "conservative," either.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/19/2008 12:55:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Former Republican Congressman Mickey Edwards Enters Rebel HQ | 22 comments (22 topical, 0 hidden)
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