Political Hack Of The Year Award

Email Print posted by KenTX 03/02/2008 05:48:46 PM EST

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Hey, Wes Junior. Here's a question. What will happen to your Dad's political aspirations if Barack Obama wins the nomination?

Look what he said today on a conference call.

Wes Clark: McCain Doesn't Have the Right Kind of Military Experience To Be Commander-in-Chief   [Byron York]


On a just-finished conference call in which retired military leaders endorsed Hillary Clinton to be commander in chief, retired General Wesley Clark said John McCain's military experience is not the right kind of experience to command the nation's armed forces:

In the national security business, the question is, do you have — when you have served in uniform, do you really have the relevant experience for making the decisions at the top that have to be made? Everybody admires John McCain's service as a fighter pilot, his courage as a prisoner of war. There's no issue there. He's a great man and an honorable man. But having served as a fighter pilot — and I know my experience as a company commander in Vietnam — that doesn’t prepare you to be commander-in-chief in terms of dealing with the national strategic issues that are involved. It may give you a feeling for what the troops are going through in the process, but it doesn't give you the experience first hand of the national strategic issues.

If you look at what Hillary Clinton has done during her time as the First Lady of the United States, her travel to 80 countries, her representing the U.S. abroad, plus her years in the Senate, I think she's the most experienced and capable person in the race, not only for representing am abroad, but for dealing with the tough issues of national security.


Maybe Chairing the Senate Armed Services Committee gives John McCain some experience and credibility.

Maybe earning these ribbons gives John McCain some experience and credibility.


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 Display:
Political Hack Of The Year Award | 78 comments (78 topical, 0 hidden)
Political Hack award already handed out. (4.00 / 3)

Sorry, Ken, but the Political Hack award was a group award this year. It went out to anyone who thought they were being really, really clever by saying Obama's middle name.

***************************

Hey, c'mon everybody! KenTX has a point! We WANT a military hero leading the troops!

I know!!! How about an actual Top Gun guy? A real live award-winning "Ace" fighter pilot. A real war hero who won the Navy Cross, a Purple Heart and two - count 'em, two - Silver Stars, and was awarded the Air Medal 15 times!

So, not only a 21 year Veteran of the Navy, but also has an MBA, showing he knows a thing or two about financial matters, an area John McCain admits is a personal weakness. And he was "a member of the Appropriations and Intelligence committees, and chaired the House Intelligence Subcommittee on Human Intelligence Analysis and Counterintelligence during the 109th Congress. He was considered a leading Republican expert on national security issues." So, his experience on committees gives him the same qualifiers as McCain for leading the troops.

Sounds like a well qualified candidate, doesn't he? Just RIPE for the pickin'! What's more, he has a lot of time on his hands and would love the opportunity.

Yes, we should always put our stock in war heroes who earned medals and had seats on committees with military appropriation responsibility. They are obviously the only people qualified to be the civilian leader of the armed forces, just like the founding fathers intended.

So, choose your qualified hero: John McCain or Randy "Duke" Cunningham?

by MedfordTim on 03/02/2008 08:13:56 PM EST

Read what you copy/paste (none / 1)

"Everybody admires John McCain's service as a fighter pilot, his courage as a prisoner of war. There's no issue there. He's a great man and an honorable man. But having served as a fighter pilot — and I know my experience as a company commander in Vietnam — that doesn’t prepare you to be commander-in-chief in terms of dealing with the national strategic issues that are involved. It may give you a feeling for what the troops are going through in the process, but it doesn't give you the experience first hand of the national strategic issues."

All this applies to ribbons and medals as well. Having medals doesn't make you a good president per sé, and vice versa.
Licoln didn't have any, and he still did a good job.

Something tells me you didn't make this argument when Kerry was running

by Cogitor on 03/02/2008 06:38:22 PM EST

I hate to tell you this but (none / 0)

he's right to a degree. His armed service committee experience certainly counts. 

First of all McCain wasn't a fighter pilot, he flew attack aircraft..meaning ground attack. That may seem like a small distinction but its a big deal in Naval Aviation. Pilots are assigned by their relative skill level...#1 are fighter pilots, attack pilots somewhere below that.

Secondly combat pilots in general, particularly Naval Aviators are self centered , lone wolf types with huge egos and a low tolerance for the more mundane things like strategy long term planning...that sort of thing. They are mission oriented, meaning they are concerned about the right here and now. They have to be that way or the wouldn't survive very long in aerial combat and to a lesser extent ground attack.

If you take the agressive qualities that make a great combat pilot and transpose them to a ground soldier you will find they wouldn't survive very long in ground combat either.

I was surprised to find that McCain lost 5 aircraft excluding the one that got shot down. 6 if you count the one that blew up in the Forrestal fire. That's very very high even for the era when McCain flew.  The man must have a lucky rabbits foot the size of a Chysler.

 

by MRFred on 03/02/2008 07:01:56 PM EST

It's 3:00 AM... (none / 1)
It’s 3:00 AM in the morning, and the phone is ringing.

The person answering needs experience.

Experience finding the key to Vince Foster’s office.
vince 

Experience finding the phone number to Hugh Rodham’s bail bondsman.
hugh 
Experience making Rose Law Firm billing records appear and disappear.
 rose

Experience keeping the Presidential papers at the Clinton Double Wide Massage Parlor off limits to all researchers.
massage 

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 07:09:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
That nice (none / 0)

Im not sure what that has to do with my post but Ok.

Clarks point about pilots is true. Let me restate  in simple language , being a pilot doesn't make you a strategic thinker or magically imbued with an innate understanding of international affairs. Nor does it give you a understanding of the military other than aviation.

 

by MRFred on 03/02/2008 07:38:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Old tactic (none / 0)
When he changes the subject like that it's a sure sign that you've made a point he is unable to refute.

by bfaul on 03/03/2008 09:27:45 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Nice attempt to derail this. (none / 0)
Odd post Ken.  Vent your Clinton hate in a new thread if you want.

by Spencer on 03/02/2008 08:29:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Um....Spence? (none / 0)

Ken started this thread.

Seems to me to be a fairly appropriate place to say whatever he wants about them. If he wants to hijack his own thread, who are we to say no?

by MedfordTim on 03/02/2008 08:35:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
hijacking threads (none / 0)
I guess I must be guilty of hijacking threads, because I don't even know what the term means.

I view this forum like an Irish pub, where we come to enjoy a pint and discuss politics. To me, every thread is like a table full of pub patrons.

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 08:49:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Except that when you order (none / 1)
a round of Coronas and someone dumps them out when everyone is about halfway through and replaces them with Miller Lite, it's annoying.

But I'm speaking generally, not specifically on this thread.

Anyway, it's all about context.

by ihavenobias on 03/02/2008 08:55:13 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I should add (none / 0)
Here is the definition of thread hijacking (the second one).

Unintentional happens (to all of us) and it's fine. 

Intentional with an agenda (like when someone is losing an argument or knows they *would* lose an argument based on the original post) is not fine.

by ihavenobias on 03/02/2008 08:59:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Obviously (none / 0)
I know it's his thread, which is why I said diversion and not hijack.  People put forth arguments that he didn't think of so he went "Well I-- um-- Clinton!  Deal with that guys."

by Spencer on 03/02/2008 09:54:00 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I meant derail, not diversion (none / 0)

by Spencer on 03/02/2008 09:57:22 PM EST

[ Parent ]
This issue is worth discussing. (none / 0)
"Odd post Ken.  Vent your Clinton hate in a new thread if you want."

I was accused by Spencer of hijacking [my own] thread. But the point I was making was spot on. It wasn't "odd" and it wasn't random.

General Wesley Clark says that McCain's military experience is not important when considering him for the job of Commander-In-Chief. (I'm sure we can find dozens of quotes from Clark raving like a maniac about John Kerry's military credentials.) And Clark forgot to mention the fact that McCain was Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
 
So what gives Clark's candidate [Hillary] more cedibility as Commander-In-Chief during time of war?

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 10:01:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I agree (none / 0)

But I didn't accuse you of hijacking your own thread.

Everybody's experience is an issue in this race.  Nobody has perfect credentials.  But I don't see how bringing out all your old Clinton "scandals" are worth mentioning again in this context because they aren't related to anybody's military experience.   That's all I meant by "odd".

by Spencer on 03/02/2008 10:07:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's like saying (none / 0)
McCain's military experience isn't good enough because of the Keating 5 scandal.  It doesn't make sense in this discussion.

by Spencer on 03/02/2008 10:08:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Let's compare experience. (none / 0)
John McCain has enough experience to lead the nation on this important military issue.

In fact, as the Chairman of the Senate Military Affairs Committee, John McCain has enough experience to lead the nation on every important military issue.

By comparison, what experience does Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton have?

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 10:16:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
We are not at war, doesn't matter. (none / 1)

We are an occupying force. We are not at war with any country. It doesn't matter.

by MedfordTim on 03/02/2008 10:42:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 0)
Not to mention the fact that poor domestic/economic/trade policies can destroy a country just as much as war can, albeit more slowly.

In fact, I think we are much MORE likely to be devastated by these things (many people already have been to a large extent) than by any bombs or bullets.

People seem to forget this point on a regular basis.  That whole analogy about the frog in the boiling water vs slowly turning up the heat thing may explain it (partly).

by ihavenobias on 03/02/2008 10:47:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Things I wish Barack Obama would say: (none / 0)
America is an occupying force in Iraq and Afghanistan.

America is not at war with al Qaeda.

Military experience does not matter in a president when it comes to our war against Islamic jihadists.

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 10:49:40 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Me too (none / 0)

It would be refreshing to hear a politician speak the utter truth.

by MedfordTim on 03/02/2008 10:51:49 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Things I wish KenTX would tell us: (none / 1)
Do you actually believe any of those statements are false?

Even you must admit they are true.  Fighting against Islamic jihadists in any place OTHER than Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan (i.e., places where significant REAL American interests exist) is detective and police work, not military work, unless you propose that we (for example) start occupying the streets of London with US troops as well.  The other two statements are undeniable fact.

So, Ken, here's the followup: if you DON'T believe these statements are false, you probably DO think that the American people don't want to hear any of it.

When will we get to the point that we don't have to lie in order to be politically successful?

by jarett on 03/03/2008 02:15:52 AM EST

[ Parent ]
too many double negatives (none / 0)
Here are some facts.

America is supporting our allies, the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan, in their fight against Islamic Jihadists. When the governments ask us to leave, we must leave.

We've been "occupying" Bosnia, Serbia, Germany, Korea, Japan, for decades after the shooting ended. I don't hear you guys complaining about these "occupations".

America is at war with al Qaeda. Here is the congressional AUMF resolution.

Military experience does not matter in a president when it comes to our war against Islamic jihadists.

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 02:39:13 AM EST

[ Parent ]
No more running away (none / 0)

When will we get to the point that we don't have to lie in order to be politically successful?

There are no double negatives in that question, super-genius.  Answer already.

by OneHitKill on 03/03/2008 03:10:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Answer (5.00 / 2)
When will we get to the point that we don't have to lie in order to be politically successful?

When Americans stop electing liars.

by Twba on 03/03/2008 03:31:09 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Hahahahahahaha (none / 0)
Clinton envy priceless

4 years ago there was a decorated combat veteran running for President

You are probably still wearing your purple heart band aids

Just remember McCain did cheat on his first wife and probably his second.

Do you really want to compare associates like the keating 5

etc

by LORD FOUL on 03/03/2008 07:51:04 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Compare (none / 0)
Clinton to McCain ok

Mccain cheated on his wife and possibly cheated on the second. His penchant for marrying women with money is a nice side touch

Keating 5 ring any bells

by LORD FOUL on 03/03/2008 08:27:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Absolutely (none / 0)

You're almost 100% right, the expierience in the armed service committee counts big time. And if that'd been the only issue in the post , I wouldn't have had any problems with it.

But when you throw all the medals in the mix, that's somthing else; it's one thing to be a good low-ranking militry man (as opposed to high end generals, like W. Clark), but being a capable presedent is something totaly different.

by Cogitor on 03/02/2008 07:11:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Too slow... (none / 0)

Was aimed at MRFred's comment.

by Cogitor on 03/02/2008 07:16:06 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thanks for conceding the point! (none / 0)
"His armed service committee experience certainly counts."

That's very generous of you. More than 20 years on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and a Chairmanship.

Knowledge of important issues such as torture.

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 07:13:05 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Duh (none / 0)
No one ever said such expierience didn't count - up to a point (and that' where judgement comes in). But just leave all the shiny metal out of it.

by Cogitor on 03/02/2008 07:18:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Medals? Oh Ken PLEASE!!!!!! (none / 1)
If one thing was learned from the last presidential election it's that medals don't mean anything. Hell they pass those things around like candy on Halloween.

Silver Star- John Kerry had one of those, so how hard could it be.

Bronze Star-ditto

Purple Heart-Shit man Kerry had three of those bad boys and the Republican party thought so much of them that they gave us these images for history

Band Aid


It was Republicans that devalued the service of every man who earned a ribbon in any war but now that your boy has some salad on his chest, medals are relevant again?

Can you say hypocrisy? I knew you could.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 03/02/2008 07:18:27 PM EST

Calm down (none / 0)
It's one thing to say that medals are not that relavant in a presidential race.
To say they "pass those things around like candy on Halloween", however, doesn't get to the point of the matter and is a teeny bit disrespectfull.

by Cogitor on 03/02/2008 07:23:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I think he was (none / 0)
using hyperbole for effect, not to be disrespectful.  And his point about hypocrisy is an excellent one.

Can you IMAGINE the reaction the media would have if a bunch of Dems at the Dem convention mocked McCain's service by wearing fake medal stickers on themselves?  My God, I think Fox News (and everyone else on tv and print for that matter) would explode. It would be THE story of the campaign and would likely sink McCain's opponent all by itself.

Seriously, think about it.  If anyone looks at it honestly, they'll quickly see just how "liberal" the media really is.

by ihavenobias on 03/02/2008 07:35:30 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Don't talk to me about disrespectful (none / 0)
The Republican party was who was disrespectful of every man who ever served when they attacked Kerry's service record and alleged that the process of awarding medals was so flawed that a someone who didn't deserve them could just have them handed to them like a pack of smokes.

As a vet I was deeply offended by the actions of the scum who did it, and I'm afraid if I had seen someone wearing one of the Purple Heart band aids I would have kicked the shit out of them for showing that kind of disrespect to the brave men who served to defend the rights of their coward asses, and I fail to understand how anyone who served could have forgiven them for the slight.

Don't talk to me about disrespectful.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 03/02/2008 07:36:46 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Attacking John McCain (none / 0)
I'd like to emphasize that up to this point in the thread, I haven't said anything that should inflame the passions of the Hubbmeister, but I'm about to.

John Kerry, a very haughty man, who ran for President on his Vietnam War record, had many disparaging words for his fellow veterans.

The criticism of John Kerry's military service and associated honors came from numerous fellow Swiftboat officers who witnessed the performance of Kerry firsthand.

I can assure you that before this election is over, Democrats will try to develop a narrative that impugns and attacks the military service of John McCain. The problem is that John McCain's record is already well known.

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 08:42:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Only a non-Veteran would believe their lies. (4.50 / 2)

I am a Vietnam Vet. Anyone who doesn't think that all of the atrocitities that Kerry testified about aren't true is wrong. Just as the people who deny atrocities occuring in Iraq are wrong.

Kerry's words were not disparaging to people who truly believe in the promise of America. They were a truth that some don't like to hear because it is easier to support the stupidity of senseless wars when they don't think about it too much. He honored my service that day by standing up for those of us who expect the best out of the United States.

Gotta wonder why those other people hate America so much...

by MedfordTim on 03/02/2008 09:39:10 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Whose lies Tim? (none / 0)
(A) Veterans who say that John Kerry did not witness atrocities?

(B) Veterans who say they served side-by-side with John Kerry, and that he lied about his service and the circumstances surrounding his medals.

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 10:08:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
The key word being (none / 0)

"say they served side -by-side with  John Kerry".  The atrocities are facts.  The anecdotes of people who claim to have served near him are, appropriately, anecdotal.

by Spencer on 03/02/2008 10:12:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Don't be that way (none / 1)
His testimony was a composite of other Vet's stories. Us Vets know this and know the stories are true - just as we know that the stories about being spit on or called baby killer upon return are a load of shit. Stop getting your info from O'Neill. He is a big fat stupid doody head liar.

Those people in the commercials did NOT serve "side by side." They were on different boats - hell, in some instances, they were on a different continent while being "side by side." Some of them never even met Kerry.

How can you still continue to believe this crap?

by MedfordTim on 03/02/2008 10:49:45 PM EST

[ Parent ]
tortured explanation (none / 0)
Please move your nose close to your computer screen. Look at this photo.
swifties
Those people in the commercials did NOT serve "side by side."
They sure look side by side to me.

They were on different boats.
That's right. Boats that were literally side by side. Every morning. Every mission. Every night.

They were on a different continents
Nope, same bat time, same bat channel.

Some of them never even met Kerry.
All of these guys met Kerry, ate with Kerry, showered with Kerry, and slept in the same straw hut with Kerry.

Twelve of the guys in this photo said that John Kerry was a chickenshiite liar, and unworthy of command.

Why did they say those things?

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 11:03:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Misrepresent, much? (none / 0)

Those are not the people speaking in the commercial.

If you're in a different boat, it's a different boat. Not all of the people in that picture knew Kerry well and they certainly were not in any position to judge his worthiness 30 years hence as Commander-in-Chief.

Pull out your high school yearbook and try to imagine what each of the other students would say about you. Would it all be flattering? Would it all be accurate?

I have a group photo of all the cooks from my first cruise. I can remember most of their names. Some, I'd like to forget. Nothing about the photo is a  representation of knowledge of an other's work - and they were on the SAME boat.

It's a lousy argument, Ken. You keep glossing over the fact that (with the exception of one) all of his actual shipmates supported and spoke highly of him and his service. Yes, I put more weight on their words than someone who occasionally saw him at the Officer's Club or still resents his speaking to Congress.

I'm funny that way.

by MedfordTim on 03/03/2008 12:04:19 AM EST

[ Parent ]
you're looking at it 180 degrees wrong. (none / 0)
"It's a lousy argument, Ken."

It's a great argument. Here's how you can tell. The argument got John Kerry indicted and convicted in the court of public opinion. It totally sunk his swiftboat. He is nothing more than a historical asterisk.

I paid good money for the ads. Those evil SBVFT people? It was me! Sweet lil ol' Kenny T from Texas and Tennessee!

If you guys have some good swiftboat dirt on McCain, let's hear it now. I will personally help throw him off the train. We're Republicans! We want to win at all cost!

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 12:12:44 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll grant you "effective" (none / 1)

it was still lousy.

by MedfordTim on 03/03/2008 12:15:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
You mean, like these guys? (none / 1)

 

"Through more than two decades of investigation of his behavior, through open-source documents, public statements of his colleagues, and personal conversations with other Vietnam POWs, we have come to the unavoidable conclusion that he is unfit by virtue of his temperament, character, dishonesty, and emotional instability to serve as President of the United States or in any other position of public trust." Sound familiar? Its not Kerry they are talking about either...its John McCain

Now youll probably say these folks are liberal activists...but you would be wrong , its part of the same group

If you try to say there "liberals" check out their spin on Obama 

These are your "conservative" brothers Ken, they make the same tastless jokes you do, how could they lie?

Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry

Vietnam Veterans agianst John McCain 

So...if Kerry is all those things because of the veterans that denounce him...the veterans that denounce  McCain must be as pure as the driven snow.

So in a word 

  • Yes, the veterans who said Kerry didn't witness atrocities are liars.
  • Yes , veterans who say  they served side-by-side with John Kerry, and that he lied about his service and the circumstances surrounding his medals are liars.

and I would venture a guess that the guys on McCain are liars also.

  • Yes the veterans who say that McCain colaborated with the North Vietnamese are liars .
  • Yes the veterans in the prison camps who said they doubted that McCain was beaten in the prison camps are liars
  • Yes the veterans who claim McCain was passed through flight school and recieved preferential treatment the behest of his Father, Adm Mcain are liars.
  • Yes the veterans who claim that McCain was responsible for the deaths of fellow pilots are liars
  • Yes the veterans who claim that McCain aided and abetted the enemy in Vietnam are liars.

Partisan hacks, every one. Since your are so adept at picking them out I would think you would know that.

Unless of course it suits your puposes.

by MRFred on 03/02/2008 11:02:01 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Bring it on! (none / 0)
If there are credible charges concerning John McCain's military service, bring it now. Let's hear it. I'm serious.

It's not too late for the GOP to dump McCain and pick another nominee. No delegate is actually "committed" until they vote at the convention in Minneapolis.

The problem is that the John Kerry accusations were very credible because they came from eyewitnesses. Men who knew Kerry very well.

Show me some similar evidence against McCain. We'll dump him like a bad habit.

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 11:11:16 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Now who is lying.... (none / 1)

Give me a break. The links are right there. Dont blow sunshine up my skirt and expect me to believe that you haven't seen this stuff before or somehow these are "shocking" new revelations.

Its also insulting, I would guess to Hubble as well, that you cling to this just to tweak our noses and rub them in shit. If you actually believe this than you and acroso are real soul mates. The McCain group are the same fucking people as most of the Kerry group, pissed because he's not "conservative" enough. The  anti immigration links on there web site should be a clue.

You know damn well all of these guys are all conservative hacks bought and paid for by people with a long standing beef with Kerry over his Vietnam testimony. Just like the Anti-McCain crowd.


by MRFred on 03/02/2008 11:36:59 PM EST

[ Parent ]
talk about hypocrisy! (none / 0)
I'm happy to know that when John McCain's military service is disparaged by political opponents, Democrats will rush to defend him. Just like they rushed to his aid when the New York Times said that McCain traded political favors for sexual favors.

The problem is that only two people would have seen the act of coitus, and both are denying it.

Yet Cenk went freakin nuts with the crooks and liars guy and the republican sexcapades guy and everyone else for a solid week!

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 12:04:38 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Your changing the subject (none / 0)

and you my friend are being a tremendous hypocrite.

His aledged lobbyist problems are not the issue. 

You dance and sing the Obama lies...your recently deleted Obama-Osama photo essay case in point. Oh, I know, "It was a joke." Really?  You go back to it often enough just to get a reaction.

You consistantly have used the Hubble Chelsea photo...and openly said Hillary had an affair with Hubble ( not our Hubble before you go there), Hillary and Bill murdered Vince Foster...there are just too many to recount here.

 The attacks on McCain are taken form the same play book that the ones used on Kerry are taken from and by and large from the same group. You know they are cheap politically motivated lies..and you repeat them over and over and over.

 So don't lecture me about being "disparaged" by political opponents. You sir, are  the biggest purveyor of this crap on this forum. You openly brag about "swiftboating" ie:disparaging ....Obama..and anyone who threatens your tax cut.

Please. 

by MRFred on 03/03/2008 07:11:55 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Better hold up there, buckaroo! (none / 0)

Why wait for McCain stuff?


You have a President NOW who has shown over and over again that he is unfit to be Commander-in-Chief but he still seems to be supported.


What would make anyone think that John McCain would be treated with any less kidder of gloves than Bush?


It's not too late for the GOP to dump bumblefuck Bush, either.

by MedfordTim on 03/03/2008 12:13:53 AM EST

[ Parent ]
you're missing the point (none / 0)
Outside of Bush, Tom Delay was the most powerful man in Washington.

Delay didn't do anything wrong. He was indicted by a Democrat hack prosecutor on phony charges. He was never convicted.

Republicans didn't care. We dumped Tom Delay in five minutes. There is no loyalty.

By contrast, Democrats defend each other to a fault. You guys are still defending William Jefferson, D, LA. This is the guy with $90,000 worth of cold hard cash in his freezer. He is still in Congress!

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 12:20:25 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The name is the same (none / 0)

DeLay has delayed his case - doesn't mean the scumbag has done nothing wrong. He just hasn't been convicted yet. Republicans didn't dump him. He quit. Whined like a little bitch and quit. "Cut and run," I believe it's called. Let the trial begin.

I can't think of anyone around here who has defended Jefferson. Let the trial begin.

But as far as people who HAVE been convicted and still hold their office, do we have to look any farther than Larry Craig?

by MedfordTim on 03/03/2008 01:02:10 AM EST

[ Parent ]
don't lose your perspective (none / 0)
"But as far as people who HAVE been convicted and still hold their office, do we have to look any farther than Larry Craig?"
Republicans did everything they could to run him out of the Senate, which was wrong if you asked me. The voters will make the call.

"DeLay has delayed his case - doesn't mean the scumbag has done nothing wrong. He just hasn't been convicted yet."
After he is exonerated, will you send him a card?

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 01:54:32 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll send a get well card... (none / 0)

...to the sick bastard who lets him off.

Will that do? ;-)

by MedfordTim on 03/03/2008 02:08:47 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Remind us, how many Republicans (none / 1)
have been caught up in corruption and scandal over the last few years?

No, no, slow down and really think about it, it's far too many for a quick answer.

HINT: You've got it totally backwards.  While this is not exclusive to Republicans, it's blatantly OBVIOUS that Republicans are the ones who (in recent history) have stuck by their corrupt friends through thick and thin. Although I wish I had a recent example...

The End

by ihavenobias on 03/03/2008 10:43:03 AM EST

[ Parent ]
And the Propaganda continues (none / 1)
John Kerry, a very haughty man, who ran for President on his Vietnam War record, had many disparaging words for his fellow veterans.

If I'm following Ken's logic, telling the truth about SOME things that happened is considered disparaging to ALL of veterans that served.  FACINATING!!

So in Ken's world if I point out (Thanks for the example Tim), that Randy Duke Cunningham is a lying, thieving, piece of shit Republican Veteran, in Ken land ALL veterans who happen to be Republican are lying thieving, pieces of shit? REALLY I find that fascinating! Disturbing, but fascinating.

By the way Ken what Kerry and other Veterans testified to happened, as did worse things. The point they were trying to make is when you send troops into harms way with no clear objective and no clear enemy, atrocities become a systemic problem. People who have actually been in that situation tend to understand the problem.

The criticism of John Kerry's military service and associated honors came from numerous fellow Swiftboat officers who witnessed the performance of Kerry firsthand.

Are you sure you want to go with that lie? It's been disproving so many times in so many ways I would think even the most hard core Kerry hater and Republican piss boy wouldn't risk any shred of credibility they might have left by repeating that lie. In fact the only person left that I know who actually still throws that out is you, and I'm pretty sure even you don't believe it.

Republicans showed that they have no regard for the sacrifice the people who served, and only use them as the back board of photo ops while they wrap their self righteous sanctimonious asses in the flag.
If Republicans had any REAL honor when the Purple Heart band aid bullshit came out every Republican member of Congress, The President, The Vice President and every member of his cabinet should have screamed in outrage, but instead they all chuckled at how clever Rove and his prop were.

Brave men and women have given their lives and limps and one of the ways this country shows its appreciation is to award them the Purple Heart, and The Republican Party mocked every one of those veterans who served. Yes it was all a big hoot.
You really admire scum like that?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 03/02/2008 10:16:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
your turn (none / 1)
"Are you sure you want to go with that lie?"

Numerous fellow Swiftboat officers said that John Kerry was "unfit for command". These were guys who served in the same unit with Kerry.
 
Hubble, please answer. Why did they say those things about John Kerry?
unfit

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 10:23:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Oh oh.... (4.50 / 2)

Ken , please answer.

Why did Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede" Larson say McCain wasnt beaten or tortured in the prison camp contrary to McCains claims. They were the senior officers there and knew McCain.

McCain denied that the Soviets interrogated U.S. POWs in Vietnam. But, former U.S., Soviet, and Vietnamese intelligence agents say they did. Why is McCain lying?

The late Col David Hackworth , conservative favorite, says McCain medals are overrated: None of the awards, less the DFC, were for heroism over the battlefield where he spent no more than 20 hours. Two Naval officers described the awards as "boilerplate" and "part of an SOP medal package given to repatriated (Vietnamera) POWs." Not a war hero. "The U.S. Navy says two eyewitnesses are required for any award of heroism. But for the valor awards McCain received, there are no eyewitnesses, less himself and his captors. And they're not talking." Sounds like phoney medals to me , Care to comment?

Why do veterans say John McCain was responsible for the deaths of fellow American pilots in Vietnam?

Why does John McCain Hide  POW/MIA Files?

by MRFred on 03/02/2008 11:23:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
interesting story (none / 1)
According to Swede Larson, accommodations at the Hanoi Hilton were delightful.

Ted Guy died a long time ago, but he also enjoyed his time in captivity.

I never found their claims that McCain was never tortured.

I agree McCain's awards were probably boilerplate, but spending five years being tortured by Vietnamese should be worth something.

According to Bob Dole, if you're awarded a Purple Heart, you should have at least shed some blood. "John Kerry  won three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of.” In fact, John Kerry miraculously won three Purple Hearts within a 30 day period, and then he went home.

Bob Dole was awarded only one Purple Heart.
bob dole

John McCain was awarded only one Purple Heart.
mccain

by KenTX on 03/02/2008 11:57:27 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Plumping the Frank (none / 0)

Tommy Franks won three purple hearts in Vietnam. Then he went home. How he won those awards is not a matter of public record.  A miracle?

Educating the spinmeister: 

You get one Purple Heart per injury. If it's a really really big debilitating injury or a flesh wound...doesn't matter. 

You get a Purple Heart for crashing your aircraft under enemy fire...one airplane...one medal.  

From the Awards Manual 

  • Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.
  • Injury caused by enemy placed land mine, naval mine, or trap.
  • Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological, or nuclear agent.
  • Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.
  • Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

 

by MRFred on 03/03/2008 09:27:36 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Awards Manual (none / 0)
From the Washington Post:

As they were heading back to the boat, Kerry and Rassmann decided to blow up a five-ton rice bin to deny food to the Vietcong. In an interview last week, Rassmann recalled that they climbed on top of the huge pile and dug a hole in the rice. On the count of three, they tossed their grenades into the hole and ran.
 
Evidently, Kerry did not run fast enough. "He got some frags and pieces of rice in his rear end," Rassmann said with a laugh. "It was more embarrassing than painful." At the time, the incident did not seem significant, and Kerry did not mention it to anyone when he got back on the boat. An unsigned "personnel casualty report," however, erroneously implies that Kerry suffered "shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks" later in the day, following the mine explosion incident, when he also received "contusions to his right forearm."

Anti-Kerry veterans have accused Kerry of conflating the two injuries to strengthen his case for a Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Kerry's Bronze Star citation, however, refers only to his arm injury.

Is there a classification for rice kernels in the Butt-Tox, as Forest Gump would say?

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 01:56:20 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Yeah..its called at a Minimum, Purple Heart (none / 1)

Nice spin...BUT...he never got a Purple Heart for the rice bin explosion...he could have if someone wanted to put him up for the award .

20 Feb 1969  Kerry and Rassmann decided to blow up a five-ton rice bin to deny food to the Vietcong. "He got some frags and pieces of rice in his rear end,"

The Puple Heart: Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

So lets recap. Military Awards for the factually impaired, (that would be you):

2 December 1968   During a recon mission "stinging piece of heat" Kerry felt in his arm had been caused by a piece of shrapnel, a wound for which he was awarded a Purple Heart. 

20 Feb 1969: Rocket propeled grenade explosion Just as they moved out onto the Cua Lon, at a junction known for unfriendliness in the past, kaboom! PCF-94 had taken a rocket-propelled grenade round off the port side, fired at them from the far left bank. Kerry felt a piece of hot shrapnel bore into his left leg. With blood running down the deck, the Swift managed to make an otherwise uneventful exit into the Gulf of Thailand, where they rendezvoused with a Coast Guard cutter. The injury Kerry suffered in that action earned his his Purple Heart.

13 March 1969  while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard

 

The Silver Star is awarded for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States not justifying a higher award. It may be awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S Armed Forces, distinguishes him or herself by extraordinary heroism involving action against an enemy of the United States

28 February 1969, when he beached his craft and jumped off it with an M-16 rifle in hand to chase and shoot a guerrilla who was running into position to launch a B-40 rocket at Kerry's boat. Contrary to the account quoted above, Kerry did not shoot a "Charlie" who had "fired at the boat and missed," whose "rocket launcher was empty," and who was "already dead or dying" after being "knocked down with a .50 caliber round." Kerry's boat had been hit by a rocket fired by someone else — the guerrilla in question was still armed with a live B-40 and had only been clipped in the leg; when the guerrilla got up to run, Kerry assumed he was getting into position to launch a rocket and shot him.Another member of the crew confirmed Kerry's account for the Boston Globe and expressed no doubt that Kerry's action had saved both the boat and its crew

 When Kerry returned to his base, his commanding officer, George Elliott, raised an issue with Kerry: the fine line between whether the action merited a medal or a court-martial.

"When [Kerry] came back from the well-publicized action where he beached his boat in middle of ambush and chased a VC around a hootch and ended his life, when [Kerry] came back and I heard his debrief, I said, 'John, I don't know whether you should be court-martialed or given a medal, court-martialed for leaving your ship, your post,'" Elliott recalled in an interview.

"But I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that," Elliott said. A Silver Star, which the Navy said is its fifth-highest medal, commends distinctive gallantry in action.

The Bronze Star is awarded to a member of the military who, while serving in or with the military of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished him- or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star. Awards may also be made to recognize single acts of merit or meritorious service. The required achievement or service, while of lesser degree than that required for the award of the Legion of Merit, must nevertheless have been meritorious and accomplished with distinction.

 

 13 March 1969 Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as an Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a Sealords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return to and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

Why only 5 months in country?In 1969, Navy regulations specified that any soldier wounded in combat three times be automatically reassigned away from a combat zone to an assignment of his choosing (unless the thrice-wounded soldier specifically requested to stay).

Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which Kerry served, forwarded a request on Kerry's behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to "duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C." Soon afterwards Kerry was transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to await further orders, and within a month he had been reassigned as a personal aide and flag lieutenant to Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr. with the Military Sea Transportation Service based in Brooklyn, New York.

Kerry served with Admiral Schlech until the end of 1969, when he requested an early discharge from the Navy in order to run for a Massachusetts congressional seat. Admiral Schlech approved the request, and on 3 January 1970 Kerry received an honorable discharge, six months early.

 Source Wikipedia, Boston Globe, US Navy Awards Manual, Washington Post..oh fuck it to many to fucking list.

One more thing..its all pretty clear that you have no damn clue how these awards are submitted and approved. The SwiftBoat Traitors For Votes do however..they just kind overlooked it.

Basically it goes though at least three levels of the chain of command with several endorsements. The unit Commanding Officer must approve and forward all awards, each level above it endorse and authenticate the award so in essence you and your lying partisan asshole friends are not only impugning Senator Kerry but his CO and all those above him .

But you did get a taxcut out of the second Bush term so I guess it was worth it.

Pathetic.

by MRFred on 03/03/2008 04:10:38 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Fred as usual is right but (none / 0)
Ken and his buddies have also impugned every veteran who ever served by implying that it's not that hard to be awarded a Bronze Star or Silver Star.

These people really have no shame, and that's a shame.

The funny part is the vast majority of these assholes never had the balls to put on a uniform and defend this country, and the ones who did serve and took part in this propaganda sold their souls for the body politic.

They must surely know better, its just that they don't care. Assholes with no souls, morons with no morals, and idiots with no ethics. Just my opinion.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

by Hubble on 03/03/2008 05:45:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Strategic posting. (none / 0)
There will be numerous attacks and insults from Democrats regarding the military career of John McCain. In fact, they are already starting.

I'm just trying to get Fred and Hubble and Lord Foul on the record, so we can count on them to ride to the rescue whenver a Democrat impugns the military service record of John McCain.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to step back and let these patriots beat the hell out of Gloria Steinem.

Fred?

Hubble?

Lord Foul?

Guys?


by KenTX on 03/03/2008 06:06:48 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I'll beat on Steinem (none / 0)
Are you supplying the bats?

Crikey, don't assume that every liberal admires or even likes her.

SAM: What's new, Normie?
NORM: Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer.

by Spinny on 03/03/2008 06:44:31 PM EST

[ Parent ]
McCains record (none / 0)
You are an amazing person my friend. You trashed and continue to trash Kerry

but you expect us to treat McCain with the dignity and respect that you still refuse to give to Kerry.

Does that mean, from this point forward, you and your friends will treat Dem vets properly?

Personally I would not attack McCain's war record. No need to. There are too many other things to attack him on. There are 2 only things I would question 1) how could a Vietnam Vet and P.O.W. keep flip flopping over the issue of torture. 2) Was the withdraw from Vietnam a mistake? (Because his answer relates to Iraq today)

I reserve the right to attack McCain on anything depending on how low you and your friends go.

Sorry Lucy but I am not Charlie Brown.

by LORD FOUL on 03/04/2008 10:55:31 AM EST

[ Parent ]
A "Minimum Purple Heart"? (none / 0)
That's a good name for it.

"he never got a Purple Heart for the rice bin explosion"
Uh, do me a favor and double check your sourcing. I believe you might be mistaken.

"Why only 5 months in country?"
Because he's a quick study. He learned the advantages of rice bin detonation.

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 06:12:23 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Read the Post (none / 0)

All of your comments prove you don't read the posts...you just keep blasting away. Why do I even fucking bother...you dont give a shit..youll be right back at it insulting every veteran on the forum.

What I said was Yeah..its called at a Minimum, Purple Heart Note the comma.

All a Purple heart signifies is you were wounded. A flesh wound, or all your limbs...same award. So he's a coward because he didn't get his legs blown off? Such bullshit

In any case he was not awarded a purple heart for the rice bin...but he could have been.He was awarded a PHM in conjunction with his Bronze Star Award. The passages are from the citations and eye witness accounts:

2 December 1968   During a recon mission "stinging piece of heat" Kerry felt in his arm had been caused by a piece of shrapnel, a wound for which he was awarded his First Purple Heart. 

20 Feb 1969: Rocket propelled grenade explosion Just as they moved out onto the Cua Lon, at a junction known for unfriendliness in the past, kaboom! PCF-94 had taken a rocket-propelled grenade round off the port side, fired at them from the far left bank. Kerry felt a piece of hot shrapnel bore into his left leg. With blood running down the deck, the Swift managed to make an otherwise uneventful exit into the Gulf of Thailand, where they rendezvoused with a Coast Guard cutter. The injury Kerry suffered in that action earned his his Second Purple Heart.

3 March 1969   in an action for which he was awarded both a Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart. According to Kerry's Bronze Star citation signed by Admiral Zumwalt , then the CNO:
Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as an Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a Sealords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return to and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
  • Klein, Joe.   "The Long War of John Kerry."The New Yorker.   2 December 2002. 
  • Kranish, Michael.   "John F. Kerry: Candidate in the Making — Part 2: Heroism, and Growing Concern About War."The Boston Globe.   16 June 2003.

 

Why 5 months? Navy regulations specified that any soldier wounded in combat three times be automatically reassigned away from a combat zone to an assignment of his choosing. Get it?

by MRFred on 03/03/2008 07:41:11 PM EST

[ Parent ]
One word sums up this entire exchange (none / 0)
Ken is that dog in case anyone wondered.

by Spencer on 03/03/2008 10:10:07 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Heh (none / 0)

I like this one better.

Yep, Ken is still the dog. 

by z1p101 on 03/04/2008 12:23:29 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Let me try (none / 0)
They are republicans

They don't like the fact that he came home and protested the war

Did any one ask them if George Bush (Draft Dodger) was fit to lead?

Good ole Mcneil (a Nixon hack) was asked the question and REFUSED to answer.

by LORD FOUL on 03/03/2008 08:32:12 AM EST

[ Parent ]
hack of the year (none / 0)
man you guys did not spend much time on that.the more i read things coming from so called dems the more i think the dems of which i thought i was,the dems will blow themselfs up by going as low as the r's.do you guy's read what you right ,it is ugly and poor and will get the dems no where.man think this will not help the party at all,it will only hurt us all.

by tuna on 03/03/2008 01:05:49 AM EST

What's with the small case runon sentences (none / 1)
Who are you, e.e. cummings?

by bfaul on 03/03/2008 09:37:39 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Medal = Shame (none / 0)

Did you ever notice, the US only gives medals to servicepeople who totally fuck up?  Infantry who get shot and have to sit out the remainder of the operation, captains who lose every single man in their charge, airmen who crash their helicopters into elementary schools...you wouldn't think the Armed Forces would be the kind of place where treating everyone like Special Olympics athletes would be ideal, but they do it anyway.

John McCain even won the Prisoner of War Medal!  "Congratulations, you got caught by the enemy!  Dumbass."

Put him on the short bus.  The games are over. 

by OneHitKill on 03/03/2008 03:38:20 AM EST

I know exactly what you mean. (none / 0)
They gave both Jimmy Carter and Al Gore one of these.
medal of idiocracy

by KenTX on 03/03/2008 06:18:35 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Lets not forget about these guys... (5.00 / 2)

Rue Paul Bremmer, for creating the insurgency with his "De-Baathification&quo t;program and providing 5 years of bogus terrorism news to exploit. Well done Paul!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 To Genneral Tommy Franks for being a mouth peice of the Administration and totally fucking up Iraq by rolling over for the senile moron Rumsfeld. Franks collected three Purple Hearts in Vietnam although how he was injured is not a matter of public record*. Tommy also recieved a 100K fee to endorse a bogus veterans group that skimmed 75% of the donations!**.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally who can forget " Curious George Tenet. His medal was a slam dunk! The picture is framed in black in remembrance of the 4500 Americans and countless innocent Iraqis who gave there lives in pursuit of a justification to invade Iraq. Why Iraq? Simple prolong the War on Terror for political gain. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Use of disparaging comments courtesy by KenTX

** Use of out of context charges courtesy by KenTX

by MRFred on 03/03/2008 09:09:45 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Those are the ones you hear about (none / 0)

You can earn a good conduct ribbon every 4 years (I, uh, never did...) and campaign medals. It's a little like the Boy Scouts merit badge system.

Ignore Ken, he gets the US military mixed up with Norway's Nobel stuff all the time.

by MedfordTim on 03/03/2008 07:47:06 AM EST

[ Parent ]
And... you are a (none / 0)
crappy pilot.

by MRFred on 03/03/2008 08:36:40 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Political Hack Of The Year Award | 78 comments (78 topical, 0 hidden)
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