On the fence...McCain v. Hillary

Email Print posted by hazmat 03/20/2008 07:16:05 PM EST

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If Hillary manages to lawyer her way into the nomination, I'm not sure who to support. I'm a democrat, but this is a tough call. I can't stand the DLC, and Hillary's tactics leave me cold. Michael Sure is a good advocate for her, but he strikes a totally different tone than her campaign. And her campaign's use of the Jeremiah Wright footage to smear Obama is cynical and hypocritical. I don't buy her surrogates distancing themselves from these tactics on the sunday morning talk shows. We all know where its coming from.

Over the years Hillary Clinton has actively sought the endorsement of many prominent African American preachers in the south and Harlem. Early in the campaign she would show up at these places and don a cheesy baptist accent. I'm sure that some of these preachers have also said many controversial things in the past. While it is true that they can't be said to be her mentor, it strikes me as hypocritical (not to race-baiting) for her to attack Obama on this front. I understand why Obama can't and won't make the counter-charges, but someone out there needs to dredge up some damning quotes for Hillary and see how she reacts. We know that she'll deny any prior knowledge. She and her husband have been enjoying the support of this faction for years in full knowledge of its (legitimate) civil-rights era disenchantment with America, and now they are turning against them full tilt because it's politically convenient.
I'm still a little on the fence about the general election if Hillary gets the nomination. I used to think Hillary was a good candidate, but I've come to believe that she has no integrity. So for the general I would have to make a choice between someone with whom I agree more on policy-wise but has no integrity and someone else (McCain) with whom I agree very little on policy-wise, but who clearly has much more integrity.
What a conundrum.
< The longer this Dem primary goes on... | Passport Breach!!!! Can We Say Diversion, Children... >

Poll

Who would you vote for in a three way race?
Hillary Clinton 62%
Ralph Nader 16%
John McCain 20%

Votes: 24
Results | Other Polls
 Display:
On the fence...McCain v. Hillary | 40 comments (40 topical, 0 hidden)
If you are an Obama supporter (none / 1)

I don't see how anyone could vote for McCain if they are Obama supporters.  I can see not liking Hillary, but how could they make themselves vote for someone who wants the war to go on forever, will only dig us in a deeper hole economically with tax cuts, and seems totally out of it when it comes to most domestic issues?

 I honestly don't get it.  That kind of Hillary hate is irrational.  Unless you are a Republican, how could anyone honestly think they would be better off with McCain as a president for 4 years?

by blueheartinaredstate on 03/20/2008 09:13:32 PM EST

Well take heart blueheartinaredstate (none / 1)
John McCain got zero votes in the poll

by Chinese Democracy on 03/20/2008 10:50:29 PM EST

[ Parent ]
McCain is CRUSHING Democrats (none / 0)
in the polls that count. Read 'em and weep!

The longer the Democrat primary goes on, the more likely the Democrat Party will be divided in the fall; the more Democrat money will be spent devouring each other; the more that Democrats are destroying their own eventual nominee.

Soemtimes I think that if it weren't for the complete stupidity of Democrats, Republicans would never have a chance to win elections.

Allow me to reiterate. If the economy is doing poorly in November, Democrats will win, no matter what.

On the other hand, if the economy is considered in reasonable shape in November, with a 5% unemployment rate and a 2% GDP, read these words:
DEMOCRATS.
DON'T.
HAVE.
A.
CHANCE!

You fools have done absolutely nothing to recommend yourself for national leadership.

by KenTX on 03/21/2008 12:34:45 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Texas 2 step (none / 0)
I do agree that the Economy is a key issue but you assume to much my friend.

You know polls in March mean nothing in November otherwise we'd be looking at President Kerry or Gore.

Both dem candidates are out fundraising your candidate.

John McCain, sadly, is starting to lose it

I have been sitting back watching you play to the Hillary hatred to a T. (you should get a job with the MSM)

We both know that (historically) this primary has been pretty tame. That is why I get so amused when people here "cry" about Clinton's tactics. Nobody likes to talk about how Clinton (despite her record) has been labeled a racist.

The one advantage your party has is that it is much better at throwing the dirt and that Dems would rather cry (unfair) than fight back (Pub tactics)

That said, right now, the important things are in our favor. So I wouldn't gloat so much

See that, Hillary is ahead nationally,"Just when you thought the Bitch was dead" HRC-III fear is on the march and coming to a ranch NEAR YOU BOOOOOOOOOO!


Have a nice day:)


by LORD FOUL on 03/22/2008 12:09:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
good post lord foul (none / 0)
It's always a pleasure doing business with you as well.

by KenTX on 03/22/2008 06:10:32 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hey Tiny, (none / 0)
Just thought you'd like to see an update on current poll numbers in this blog.

"Who would you vote for in a three way race?"
Hillary Clinton 58%
Ralph nader 11%
John McCain 29%

That means Hillary Clinton will receive only 58% of Democrat votes in November.

You are a fool.

by KenTX on 03/21/2008 01:17:46 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I am an Obama supporter! (none / 0)

But here's the thing. The DLC is nauseating to me. Hillary's voting record is just a heartbeat from Joe Lieberman's as far as I'm concerned. Why hasn't her vote on the Kyl-Lieberman bill become a MAJOR campaign issue? It flies in the face of her comical "If I new then what I know now, I wouldn't have voted for it" defense. Cenk said it best: "If I new then what I know now, I would have put money on the Giants in the Superbowl". Thanks genius.

That's just one of a constellation of issues that she's gotten dead wrong. But basically she has a history of campaigning as a liberal, voting as a neocon. So if I have to vote for one of these jokers, my point is, why not do it with eyes wide open?

 I don't hate Hillary, I used to be something of a fan. But her attempts to tar and feather Obama (I can't think of a more appropriate metaphor) with blatantly racial plays, all the while playing gender politics to the max, has really pulled the wool from my eyes. Obama in contrast has attempted to make his candidacy about issues, and about his vision for America.

So your last point about McCain is 100% true, 0% wrong. That's the only reason I'm on the fence. I would truly have to hold my nose and vote if it came down to a choice between "I think it's reasonable to invade Iran" and "I will invade Iran".

by hazmat on 03/21/2008 12:42:41 AM EST

[ Parent ]
The bag of poop that smells the least bad. (none / 0)
I'm inspired to reply because I am more on-the-fence than I'd prefer at this point. I mean, how could anyone who's paying the slightest attention be completely devoid of some formed opinion? Hazmat's point on "I think it's reasonable to invade Iran" vs "I will invade Iran" cuts to the heart of the issue. With either Democratic candidate as president, there will be some I'm-tough-on-terrorism posturing as well as conciliation towards Republican-sponsored ideals to gain favor. Them's is the breaks.

"Not my candidate!" some may say.

Uh, yeah, your candidate.

But here's how I view it. Let me say that in my opinion, apart from another attack on our country or by it, the most critical role of the next president is their nomination(s) to the Supreme Court. And I believe it is severely overlooked as an issue. McCane (sic) will likely give us just what his base demands: another sellout Constitution-wrecking Alito/Scalia/Thomas clone for the next 20 or 30 years. Give him a second term and he may appoint 2 or 3. But Clinton or Obama? At worst, they'll give us a moderate for a nominee, sort of a "I think it's reasonable to invade Iran" equivalent... In pursuit of a second term they are bound to stay centrist, in their first term at least. I'm not saying that global warming, the ecomony or health care aren't huge issues. Nor would those issues be free from equivocation by a Democratic president. The point is that I expect no such moderate stance from the so-called Maverick McCain, and that settles it for me.

I can't disagree that Hillary's tactics and methods can definitely be off-putting. However if she did get the nomination, I ask everyone: is the difference between her and McCain so negligible that you'd consider not voting for her? For anyone who thinks that way, take another look at the contrasts between the parties if not the candidates. Or open your ears to what Cenk will be explaining to you for the next 7 months, and why it matters.

And get out and #&%$ing vote.

by eallgaier on 03/21/2008 03:02:09 AM EST

[ Parent ]
I would definately vote for Hillary (none / 0)
over McBush 4 more years of this I think would do to much harm to the country.

by Chinese Democracy on 03/21/2008 03:10:38 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Here are the questions. (none / 0)
The 35% GOP base will vote for McCain, because they are afraid of the alternative.

The 35% Democrat base will vote for Hillary, because they are afraid of the alternative.

The question concerns the 30% of voters in the middle. Who will they vote for, Hillary or McCain?

Do we like Hillary?
Do we trust Hillary?
Do we think Hillary can fight al Qaeda?
Do we want to see Hillary on TV for the next four years?
Do we want a return to the 20th century, back when Bill Clinton was President? 

by KenTX on 03/21/2008 03:13:21 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 0)
I am pretty sure that if it is framed that way that most people will want a return to the 20th century. The 90's in particular. Especially if the alternative is a return to the 19th century ;)

Really, though, when that middle percentage of Americans sees the depth of Hillary Clinton's knowledge compared to John McCain's, it will be a blowout for Hillary. Especially with poor Mac's confusion and general ignorance in matters such as economics. That argument may not have worked in 2000 but back then the populace didn't have an eight-year example of ignorance, and they will yearn for the most prepared and knowledgeable candidate.

Except for me, of course. I will vote for Nader, as explained below. I'm not saying I would never vote for her, she could win liberals like me back over with the aforementioned breadth of policy knowledge. Or the wingnuts like yourself could drive us to support her. But at this point, that seems highly unlikely.

by Weapon X on 03/21/2008 03:48:50 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Exactly (none / 0)

"Why hasn't her vote on the Kyl-Lieberman bill become a MAJOR campaign issue? It flies in the face of her comical "If I new then what I know now, I wouldn't have voted for it" defense."

Excellent, excellent point. 

by bfaul on 03/21/2008 01:12:26 PM EST

[ Parent ]
"Lawyer" her way in? (none / 0)

It sounds like you don't have faith in the process.  I do.  Hillary Clinton might be the nominee if there's a fourth ballot at the convention and there's a blizzard in Miami.

Don't worry about.  Your biggest worry seems to be your principles:  You support Obama but there is a circumstance in which you would vote for McCain?

Wow.

by EveningStarNM on 03/21/2008 02:14:24 AM EST

As someone who originally wanted Hillary (none / 0)
I would now have to vote for Nader. And no, no one has to remind me of 2000. But I deeply believed in Gore. I am positive that Gore would have done the smart thing and the right thing the vast majority of the time. Hillary lost me because she has attacked what I consider the liberal/progressive approach to foreign policy.


Her foreign policy was never the reason I would have supported her in the first place. Other than talking about women's rights issues, it wasn't her strong suit as First Lady. Domestic policy was. Healthcare, remember? But I thought she would have good advisors and that she would be able to judge what was the best, most rational course for America to follow. But she's told us that she pretty much doesn't believe in what we consider the rational approach to foreign policy.



If Hillary took this nomination by some means other than an outright lead in elected delegate/popular vote that proves Ralph Nader's overall point about our system and the two parties more than anything else. I would never again call myself a Democrat, I already hesitate doing so after their pathetic showing the last seven years. And I don't believe she will govern much differently than John McCain at all. McCain is just as likely to get into office and rationally decide whether or not our goals are achievable as Hillary is. At least McCain called for Rumsfeld's resignation long, long before I can recall anyone else doing so.


I still would not vote for McCain, that's ludicrous. But I think it would be important to have my voice heard in protest. And that equals a vote for Nader.

by Weapon X on 03/21/2008 03:39:54 AM EST

What would an adult do? (none / 0)
As much as I dislike Hillary I cannot see voting for Mccain or Nader.  Nader just takes votes away from Hillary in the General,  thus you voted for McCain.  
What really scares me is who McCain's Vice President will be.  McCain will be lucky to make it through 2 years of his presidency.  His schedule is wearing him down now, his memory is failing, and he looks like dead man walking.  Being President will tax his system even more fighting 3 wars, a depression, a Democratic Majority in Congress, and Civil unrest in this country.
Thus his Vice President will be taking over for him.  The Republicans wil nominate a real Neo Con like Lindsey Graham (the  Gay Weasel), here is the real danger with McCain.  
My only choice is to choose Hillary or the Democratic Candidate.  But i believe Obama will get the nomination.  If you want to vote for McCain or Nader please feel free, but dont call me from your foxhole in Iran complaining.  Because that will be the only Job available by then.

by jdenham on 03/21/2008 10:34:40 AM EST

50 million "adults" voted for Bush (none / 0)

...last time so cut me a little slack, if I want to pause before pulling the trigger on this one. You're right, I can't vote for McCain.

Still I have legitimate concerns about Hillary outlined above. Weapon X seems to understand this. Would I vote for Nader? I'm open. It feels better than leaving the president spot blank.

 Okay, I should have more faith in the process, point taken. But many committed progressives like myself watched the process break down in 2000, and at this point Hillary is clearly pushing for a similar breakdown as her path to power. Can we really stomach supporting a candidate who stoops to Rovian tactics, and who clearly has no faith in or respect for the judgement of the voting majority? She's not going to change ANYTHING. She LIKES IT the way it is.

Still, the point about the Supreme court is hard to ignore.

by hazmat on 03/21/2008 12:40:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Its a good question (none / 0)
Thats going to be my question to the people who say they wont vote for hillary

Do you want McCain picking the next surpreme court?

by Chinese Democracy on 03/21/2008 12:50:28 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I won't vote for Hillary because... (none / 0)

... she won't be the nominee, and I will vote for the Democratic nominee.

by EveningStarNM on 03/21/2008 03:01:18 PM EST

[ Parent ]
so will I (none / 0)
But when someone says I will vote for McCain over Hillary  if Hillary wins I will ask

Do you want McCain picking the next supreme court?

by Chinese Democracy on 03/21/2008 06:54:14 PM EST

[ Parent ]
how do you like this? (none / 0)
"Do you want McCain picking the next supreme court?"

The majority of Americans are answering with a resounding "Yes!"

You like polls, don't you Tiny? You're always quoting "this poll says this" and "that poll says that". Well, how do you like this poll?

Kindest Regards,
Ken

by KenTX on 03/21/2008 07:37:57 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hey Tiny! (none / 0)
You like apples?

Well, how do you like them apples?

by KenTX on 03/21/2008 07:40:55 PM EST

[ Parent ]
I dont like apples or trolls (none / 0)
"As we always try to remember to say: Polls are snapshots of current public opinion, and this far out from any Election Day should certainly not be seen as predictions of what will happen."

The Democrats dont even have a candidate running against McCain yet you moron

by Chinese Democracy on 03/22/2008 12:02:14 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Zogby says McCain is thumping Dems (none / 0)
Hey Tiny!!

Look at this new poll. It looks like the pollsters are consistent.

Democrats are devouring themselves and burning through $200 million in campaign contributions, trying to make each other look as bad as possible. They are producing and running ads that the GOP will simply copy in the fall.

Where is all the big talk from zippy, juarez, tiny about how Americans hate George W Bush, the guy who is not running in 2008.

by KenTX on 03/21/2008 09:45:53 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Hhhmm... Thats an Interesting question Ken... (none / 0)
Where are the anti Bush faithful...I havent heard from them in weeks almost...

Now and again, maybe someone will mention his name is passing, but its as if he isnt there anymore...

Thats when he is most dangerous - when he is ignored...

"Im not sayin anything, I'm just sayin" - Cenk

:)

by bobo1 on 03/21/2008 10:16:09 PM EST

[ Parent ]
It's a mystery to me? (none / 0)
We used to have a participant named zippy who made a hundred predictions every day about how Republicans were divided over the war in Iraq; and Republicans were divided over Bush; and Republicans were divided over McCain; and Republicans were divided over the election.

Now look who is divided. Democrats have had control of Congress for quite a while and they have accomplished nothing. Democrats have every advantage going into this election, and yet they are losing in the polls.

Zippy ran away, and now I can't even have a friendly debate with Tiny or Juarez on the subject. 

by KenTX on 03/21/2008 10:42:21 PM EST

[ Parent ]
its simple (none / 0)
Everyone gets bored of your shit eventually

by Chinese Democracy on 03/21/2008 11:58:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Ol' dirty Chinese restaurant (none / 0)
do me a favor, don't stand up for me.

by z1p101 on 03/22/2008 12:07:37 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Stand up for you? (none / 0)
Let me set you straight there bucko. There is no way I would ever "stand up" for some jerk that uses terms like Old Dirty Laundry. Dont flatter yourself.

I was stating a known . Like the sun comes up in the morning.

What a dinkwad you are

by Chinese Democracy on 03/22/2008 12:11:06 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Old Dirty Laundry? (none / 0)

No. How old are you that you don't know who Ol' dirty Chinese restaurant is?

Look it up.

by z1p101 on 03/22/2008 12:39:49 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Isnt your buddy funny? (none / 0)
careful I might be >>> GAY <<< and I might try to climb into your sleeping bag.

Cmon how fuggin lame is that? I mean really its the year 2007 and there are people that post that ignorant shit still? What fucking planet are they on.

Im really really really old. I mean older than 7th grade.

by Chinese Democracy on 03/22/2008 12:53:54 AM EST

[ Parent ]
2008 (none / 0)
any time in this millenium would make the point though

by Chinese Democracy on 03/22/2008 12:54:59 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Dude or Dudette (none / 0)

I don't care if you are straight, gay or like sheep, just keep your attacks on Ken out of my way.

BTW, how did your Linux install go? I have done hundreds and could help if you need it. I'm not a bad guy. 

by z1p101 on 03/22/2008 01:26:20 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Okay, dammit, ya sucked me into a KenTX thread (none / 0)
And, best of all, I can blame you for dragging this thread off topic.

I've got a Pentium D/2G/80G notebook doing nothing that I figured I turn into a Linux workstation for practice.  It's been 20 years since I've done anything on Unix, so I'm rusty.

People have recommended Ubuntu, PCLinux, and others.  I'm interested in fuctionality, particularly wrt networking flexibility, and have no interest in 3D resource wasting B.S. a la Aero.  No one has tipped the balance, so I'll let you decide: which flavor do you recommend?

by EveningStarNM on 03/22/2008 04:12:26 AM EST

[ Parent ]
my advice (none / 0)
If you intend to use a wireless connection  dont use Linux . Linux no matter what the flavor just doesnt do wi fi well at all  because of the lack of  drivers. I really like Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon  and you can run it without ever installing it on your pc.

by Chinese Democracy on 03/22/2008 07:57:11 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Thanks (none / 0)

I tried Ubuntu from the disc, and it was interesting but slow.  I would have installed it right then but I still had some stuff on the hard drive I wanted to save.  And then I heard a couple of reviews comparing it to PCLinux and found myself on the fence.  PCLinux apparently does device and update management somewhat better.  (Of course, what I really want is Debian.  I'd use it if I wasn't looking for something that a client could use.  It's the least user-friendly of the group.)

Also, you're not the first I've heard complain about the lack of Linux WiFi drivers.  But the machine I want to experiment with is a Dell notebook, and they provide Linux drivers for it.

(I want Dell, Inc., to have my children.  I get all of my and my clients' notebooks and servers from them.  But all my workstations are cheaper clones.)

So if z1p101 doesn't reply in a day or so (I did promise him that he could decide), Ubuntu it is!

by EveningStarNM on 03/22/2008 01:11:17 PM EST

[ Parent ]
My opinion (none / 0)

Go with Ubuntu if you are rusty. It is Debian based, easy install, great package management system and the people are very helpful on the web sites message board.

The key to troubleshooting Linux installs is to know the make and model of all your hardware components. The problem with Wi Fi network cards is that there are so many chip sets out there for them that a progam called NDISWRAPPER was created to allow you to use Windows drivers to use the wireless NIC in *nix. Some chip sets get a lot more *nix support than others. That is why Linux users prefer NVIDIA graphics cards over  ATI Radeon ones. The two problems with NDISWRAPPER is that people allow the install software to pick the right drivers (and it chooses the wrong ones) or the program just does not work well with that specific chip set. I had a problem once and I just went out and bought a $10 PCMCIA card and it was solved.

My favorite distro is Gentoo.  It is also Debian based and similar to Ubuntu but the install process (and everything else) is much less user friendly until you get used to it but it is much more customizable.

PM me with any questions. 

by z1p101 on 03/23/2008 03:59:47 PM EST

[ Parent ]
Thanks, z1p101! (none / 0)

It's unanimous: Ubuntu it is (although you make Gentoo sound tempting to an old command-line junky like me).

I've read about the capabilities and issues with NDISWRAPPER.  Fortunately, Dell published Linux drivers for that machine.  But I do want to experiment with using the Windows drivers, since that would be an issue with most other manufacturers.

And thanks for the offer.  I may have to take you up on that!  :)

by EveningStarNM on 03/23/2008 06:24:15 PM EST

[ Parent ]
careful zippy (none / 0)
I think he digs you.

He tried the same thing with Jesse, creeping over and slipping ever-so-quietly into his sleeping bag.

Then Jesse jumped up and said, "Dude, I'm getting married!"

by KenTX on 03/22/2008 12:25:22 AM EST

[ Parent ]
Run away? (none / 0)

Me? naa! Just been busy.

Anyway, it's way to early to listen to polls about McSame.

It's going to be a long hot summer with gas prices about $4 a gallon with McCain barking about how we need to bomb Iran now. You want a stock tip? Here it is, the Prius will be selling like hot cakes. Even Peterbilt is getting involved.

I will stick with the facts. A democrat took Denny Hasterd's seat recently.

The National Republican Congressional Committee spent $1.2 million on the race -- nearly one-fifth of its entire cash on hand — in a failed attempt to hold on to what many political observers felt would be a fairly easy seat to retain.

Ohh, how long is joe six pack going to listen to McCain's same old noise that they have been hearing for 8 years. Not long when he hears his job has been off shored. He will not care about the GDP doing this and that. What does GDP stand for?

With 30 Republican incumbent House members retiring do I really need to worry about windsock McCain? Nope.

In the Senate, even Dick Morris knows what is coming. 

See, it was simple. The Republicans pulled a hit and run on your simple country ass.

by z1p101 on 03/22/2008 01:10:54 AM EST

[ Parent ]
She would REALLY have 2work to win my vote (none / 0)
But, as I said in the same comment where I said as of now I wouldn't vote for her, she is an extraordinarily capable and well-informed candidate and she could absolutely pull me back in. After all, I was originally for her. (ok, after that I was for Dodd, then Edwards, then undecided and finally for Obama... I'm a flip-flopper. Context and new developments happen to affect my decision-making)


Let me second all of hazmat's points, including the one about the Supreme Court, and then address some of the other commenters re: Nader.


The fact that this type of "vote for x because y could be worse" reasoning is exactly why we SHOULD vote for Nader. His ego-mania aside, his point in such a scenario would be proven in my mind. I thought he had a point in 2000, I just believed then, as I do now, that he shouldn't have done so against a candidate as promising as Gore. I understand that at the time most people did not have such a deep belief in Gore.


But we need to break these parties. If Hillary is President AND she fulfills our best hopes about her, the Democratic Party in Congress will be required to do a lot of heavy lifting. Who here believes they will? The laws controlling who gets on the ballot in which state and how elections are run in general have destroyed the optimistic promise of what our democracy could have been.

by Weapon X on 03/21/2008 05:06:25 PM EST

[ Parent ]
On the fence...McCain v. Hillary | 40 comments (40 topical, 0 hidden)
 Display: